Saturn: Almost FIXED... Next?

[tollytime]

Originally Posted by eaton53

What's aged is the suspension design of the ES... they've been using a cheap all strut design for years.

I've driven the Avalon and knowing its suspension shortcomings took it to a road that would test its setup. It was pretty amusing when the salesman got bounced all around the back seat, as I knew would happen. The super stiff rear struts just don't allow enough wheel travel to handle rough stuff.

The ES suffers the same setup as the Avalon and Camry... it's inexcusable in a car at its price point to be using a suspension design suitable for an econobox.

The "aging GM G-body" Lucerne CXS has no such suspension shortcomings.

When did I ever mention the Avalon? I was talking about the ES. Unless you can show they have the same part numbers on the suspension, we're not talking about the same thing. My point was, the cars are not even in the same class of quality. Who said an all strut design is inferior? I'm sure Lexus is not the only carmaker to use this design. Somehow, a survey that shows how many problems a car has in it's first year became an overall quality mark.

[ProjectRS]

Well done for Saturn

[Griffen427]

I wouldn't even bother contemplating or suggesting that GM bring back the Firebird, it's not going to happen. The last thing we want is another clone that splits development money, and instead of it all being invested in a Camaro w/ quality interior etc, and bold styling, you'll wind up with two cars w/ mediocre interiors, and fairly undifferentiated styling. The press will have a field day, and GM's image goes nowhere. The Camaro has much more value as a name, and for years consistently outsold the Firebird anyway.

Plus, Pontiac needs UNIQUE products, not clones. That means that Pontiacs should only be compared in certain auto segments, not the same ones as Chevy or Buick. Perhaps they could be built/marketed as competitors for Acura. It should be an affordable RWD performance division for those who don't want to buy a Chevy, but can't afford a Cadillac. I agree that it should have higher-powered cars, but as you know the sacred rule at GM is that no car can surpass the Corvette, and that provides for some problems. Furthermore, if Pontiac is "revitalized" etc. then Cadillac and Buick need to be made even more upscale.

In order for all of this to work, I think the improved GM divisions should be groomed to meant to compete as follows:

CHEVY/GMC v. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Volkwagon, Hyundai, etc.

PONTIAC v. Acura, Mazda(speeds), Subaru(GT's and STi's), Volkswagon (GTI's).

BUICK v. Infiti, Lexus (lower models), Volvo.

CADILLAC v. Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi, Lexus (upper models).

Most of these brands would have to offer RWD vehicles, and in the Case of Buick, Pontiac, and GMC, no more than 4 models each.

As an aside, I personally think GMC is a complete waste of money, and should simply be made into some sort of trim package on Chevy trucks. THERE'S NO NEED FOR A DIVISION FULL OF CLONES!

This will all cost a good amount of money, but GM can no longer afford to be cheap a let the Bean-counters do all of the development…just look at the Pontiac Aztek for example.

[MNdudeswitz]

There is no way in Hell buick can compete with Infiniti............they are on totally different levels. Buick is more like lexus because Infiniti is a sporty luxury brand

[Griffen427]

Originally Posted by MNdudeswitz

There is no way in Hell buick can compete with Infiniti............they are on totally different levels. Buick is more like lexus because Infiniti is a sporty luxury brand

Yes, that may be true at the moment, but Infiniti doesn't really compete with Mercedes Benz on the same level and with the same number of products as Cadillac does. Cadillac should focus on the brands listed, and Buick, with the addition of some sort of revitalization would have no problem competing with Infiniti, all they need are some of the better parts and platforms GM has to offer.

Basically, if Buick is to survive it has to embrace what it once was - the businessman's car, the car for the person who didn't want the flashy Cadillac that doctors drove, but still something luxurious and refined. People who drive Infinitis don't spend the same amount as those who drive Mercedes Benzes - they want some sort of affordable luxury and performance - which is about the only niche Buick could possibly be placed in. Otherwise, a division such as Buick no longer has any place in a GM lineup. In this case, MAKING Buick a viable competitor for Infiniti would give the brand some legitimacy and reason to not get the axe, and also fill a small hole in the entry-level luxury market that GM is should be competing competently in (not with the current Buick lineup).

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by tollytime

When did I ever mention the Avalon? I was talking about the ES. Unless you can show they have the same part numbers on the suspension, we're not talking about the same thing. My point was, the cars are not even in the same class of quality. Who said an all strut design is inferior?

The Avalon, Camry and ES are all the same basic design underneath... whether or not the "part numbers" are the same is irrelevant. The whole setup is unsuitable for a luxury car since the rear struts have to be made extremely stiff, greatly limiting wheel travel. To my knowledge no luxury maker puts something like this on their vehicles... they're using sophisticated multi link rear suspensions and in the Buick's case, active dampers.

Wheel travel is a very important component in ride control and limiting body oscillation. The lack of said travel is the primary reason that a strut suspension is inferior. It was fine when the Camry was a smaller car with less stiff struts but with the increases in size and curb weights this is no longer the case.

Now, you can give me a reason why this design is good (other than its cheap, which is a valid reason to use it on an econobox), or you can go back to citing quality surveys which have little to do with the driving...

[jzchev28]

Well...I'm not sure how to fix the entire dev. of Pontiac other then to bring back proformace. i like the G6, they need to keep it fresh though, ep2 needs to be brought out as soon as possible. the next G6 in its first year needs a GXP with AWD and around 400HP. this thing needs to eat EVO'S and crapp out WRX'S, with some aggressive styling. if they would just do that i can see it on the cover of all the car mags now "Excitement is finally back!"

[63GrandSport001]

Both Pontiac and Buick need styling that will set them apart, Pontiac has this with the Sosltice and GP but they need to continue on this path. They can pull it off, and I hope they do pull it off the right way because I can see them growing in the near future.

Buick needs all of its products from here on out to be as well exacuted as the enclave.

[gmhashope]

Originally Posted by MNdudeswitz

There is no way in Hell buick can compete with Infiniti............they are on totally different levels. Buick is more like lexus because Infiniti is a sporty luxury brand

Years ago it would have been the other way around.

[MNdudeswitz]

Originally Posted by gmhashope

Years ago it would have been the other way around.

Very true, it's just amazing.........five years ago i never saw any infinitis, didn't even know where they came from.........now they are freaking everywhere!!!

[gmhashope]

Yep, a few years ago I would have never looked at an Infiniti, but I love the current G35. That's one nice looking car.

[MNdudeswitz]

Originally Posted by gmhashope

Yep, a few years ago I would have never looked at an Infiniti, but I love the current G35. That's one nice looking car.

Yep, thats actually what I'm going to buy........don't know if it will be a new G35, Infiniti seems to have more soul than any other Japanese luxury brand........plus I love the looks.......Our driveway will look wicked this fall with my G35 parked next to my fiances saturn Aura!

[gmhashope]

Nice choices. I love the G35 coupe. If they were in the price range I'm looking at, I'd get one. No doubt the G35 would be at the top of the list. The new G35 looks pretty good too.

[eaton53]

A used Q45 is a good deal.... if you can find one.
But not nearly as good a deal as a used VW Phaeton is going to be.... if you can find one.

[superstreet]

Originally Posted by beelzebub

Ion is a loser. If numbers add up, Opel Astra will be perfect.

i live in the border and i see that car but with the vectra name