Pontiac's Uncertain Future

[Gm786]

Originally Posted by joshls

Pontiac needs AWD. Period.

And GM needs to get a 4 cylinder turbo or something equivalent into the Pontiac G8.

[eb110americana]

Ugh. GM is hurting, and it shows. This is just like when they pulled forward the production of the GMT900 SUVs and put everything else on hold. GM sees that at current net earnings, they'll be out of money in a given timeframe. As such, they've put all their eggs in the Volt/Cruze/Astra basket for the near term. They're throwing everything they've got at getting the e-flex architecture to market ASAP.

The last of the performance vehicles we will see for some time are the ZR1, CTS-V, Camaro, G8, and new Cobalt SS and HHR SS turbo. Even recent vehicles like the Lambda SUVs (Traverse and Escalade are not even on sale yet), the new Equinox/Terrain/9-4X/SRX quadruplets, and the CTS are all vehicles GM can no longer afford to bring to market. These are here only because they were in the pipeline before the current financial struggle.

If GM is seriously thinking of killing Solstice/Sky, nixing the long-anticipated Alpha Pontiac, and not even keeping the G6 competitive with Korean midsizers, then you know they are getting desperate. I predict there is no new product in the pipeline at all. For any brand.

All V8s are dead (except a select few small blocks), RWD is dead (except CTS, Vette, and trucks--but only on existing platforms), SUVs are dead (save a few smaller entries), trucks are dead (existing platforms will not be updated), large cars have been dead for a decade already (DTS, Lucerne), midsize is dead (Insignia is the last of them, G6 is poster child). All that's left are Volt and Cruze after everything in the pipeline runs out. Perhaps they've pinned their hopes on these being enough to sustain a brand to sell the Chevrolet triplets (Beat, Trax, Groove), Aveo, and other micro, sub-, and compact cars.

However GM, you need interesting cars. Don't kill them all off. RWD and economy are not mutually exclusive, especially if they are not saddled with 2 tons of weight and a V8 engine.

Here is the true reason Pontiac is in the state it's in-

When times are good (1980's-1990's):
"Grand Am, etc. are selling. We can't change from the FWD status quo now and risk losing sales."

When times are bad (2000's):
"We must invest in core product such as SUVs and trucks. There is no money to afford a RWD renaissance at Pontiac."

Instead of tugging Pontiac in a thousand different directions, how about letting a group of true enthusiasts build great cars that enthusiasts want. That means light weight, class leading handling, good power, RWD, available manual transmission, sexy looks, all without sacrificing interior practicality by much (Solstice has no trunk) or costing too much (midway between Chevy and Cadillac, with competitive MPG). If you build these cars, people will slowly come to you at first but eventually realize the cult status of the brand and you will never be able to stop the success of Pontiac as long as you keep building cars with these attributes. Rebadging Aveos with arrowheads might sound cheaper at first, but you forfiet ten times that savings by failing to build something people actually want.

[hotrod747]

Well, time to start looking really hard at Infiniti! If Pontiac really does go, so will I!

[zeta5]

Pontiac could sell a lot of Vibe if marketed properly. Especially if they put the new 1.4 L turbo engine in it.

[djo165]

Originally Posted by Exploder

Quite frankly the only reason I'm not calling for the death of Pontiac is the G8. People say it should become the Impala should Pontiac die, but I am strongly opposed to that. I feel that the Impala should be an original American product by it's own. And I'm not sure I like the idea of the G8 becoming a Saturn since that would be at odds with their clean, green image (Nobody thinks "performance" when Saturn is mentioned, except maybe the Sky) So...how does Chevrolet Commodore sound?

Chevrolet Chevelle sounds better. And it goes well with El Camino!

[djo165]

Originally Posted by Rocket 88

IMO it seems like GM has to either:
1) Move the Saturn lineup to BPG and kill Pontiac. Pontiac products can be distributed to Buick and/or Chevrolet.
Or
2) Move the Satunr lineup to BPG and Kill Saturn then sell them as Pontiacs. This would probably still require moving or not replacing some of Pontiac's existing models.

That pretty much matches my thinking and what I wrote a couple of months ago.
UPDATE 6/21!: GM Cutting Another Division?

Originally Posted by Rocket 88

Last month Saturn sold almost 20,000 vehicles. Pontiac sold 24,000. Considering Pontiac's higher rate of Fleet sales this means actual retail customers may have bough almost the same amount of Pontiacs and Saturns.

Saturn did this with just over 400 dealerships while Pontiac did this with over 2,000.

The drawback with this plan is do you want to replace those fleet sales, and if so, with what? Do all those fleets then go to Chevy? Some will, I'm sure, but then do you want Chevy to have to deal with an increased fleet stigma?

[spidge]

Originally Posted by Greg Burr

The G8 can be the Impala SS, in the worst case

Kill Pontiac, make the G8 the Impala, and the G8 ST rightly the El Camino!

If Pontiac cannot be different than Chevrolet, what's the point? Times have changed, and performance and luxury are no longer exclusive.

[spidge]

Originally Posted by eb110americana

If GM is seriously thinking of killing Solstice/Sky, nixing the long-anticipated Alpha Pontiac, and not even keeping the G6 competitive with Korean midsizers, then you know they are getting desperate. I predict there is no new product in the pipeline at all. For any brand.

Sounds like American Motors just before they were bought out by Chrysler.

[Gm786]

Originally Posted by hotrod747

Well, time to start looking really hard at Infiniti! If Pontiac really does go, so will I!

I don't think Pontiac is going anywhere anytime soon. Rick Wagoner has stated quite a few times that GM isn't cutting or selling any other division except for Hummer. GM needs to axe the G5 from Pontiac and replace it with a small sporty RWD car, get rid of the Torrent, make sure the next G6 is a RWD performance sedan and make AWD an option, build the next Solstice on the new Alpha platform with a sharper exterior design and stronger but more efficient engine or engine choices, and advertise them properly. The Pontiac division needs to be GM's pure performance division and if I recall properly, I remember Lutz stating that a while back. GM's going to have to find a way to make this RWD tranformation happen for Pontiac but at the same time complying with the new CAFE standards.

[ZHDesign57]

GM obviously does not have much more R&D money to go around and stick into Pontiac. The best they could do is G8 GXP, G8 ST and Solstice Coupe, and then we'll get a G6 rebadge of the Malibu and a Pontiac Version of the Cruze.

It will look like a hot mess for a few years, but I'd rather them keep Pontiac around as a few Unique models and a few rebadges, than kill them and close off all posibilities of the future.

GM will pick back up in a few years hopefully, and They will be able to pour more R&D dollars into Pontiac. (If they don't kill it)

Look at all the R&D dollars that are being spent. You had Camaro development, the Volt is still under developent... Other things like BAS+ and the next generation of hybrids, Hydrogen fuel cell Equinox test vehicles, Corvette ZR1, Desiging new models, Testing, Retooling plants, Engineering cars that comply with CAFE... and more...

(You may say "Well most of that's for Chevy!" Well...it's the best thing GM can do to survive, make Chevy as strong as possible. It is their #1 brand.)

Some people don't realize, but a slight facelift, like a new set of headlights, tailights and bumpers...That costs more than it does to fund most Hollywood Movies when they greenlight that for a model.

A new Model COSTS several Millions. They are not about to go bankrupt developing a bunch of gas guzzling "poor man's" BMW's right now. They go back to an old strategy for now, Be Chevy's little companion.

As much as I'd like to see more cars like the G8 from Pontiac, Money is better spent on Products for Buick, Chevy and Saturn right now than any other brands. This insure's GM's survival. So that they don't KILL ALL OF THEIR BRANDS.

Pontiac may be a causualty of this. But I don't see it happening. Because it will cost more money to kill Pontiac. So for right now. I see Pontiac staying.

Don't get so excited. I wouldn't doubt with all the rebadges that GM goes ahead and greenlights a Firebird or GTO alongside the Camaro.

NAIAS will be interesting in January. I plan on going. I think something big is going to happen.

Just a hunch.

Thanks for hearing me out, and hopefully, we will be seeing better times for GM, rather sooner than later.

[Gm786]

I'm going to remain by what I've been saying for sometime now, "Pontiac's cars need to be converted either 100% RWD or if not at least 95% RWD. Pontiac is GM's sporty division. If GM can't fully convert Pontiac's cars to RWD I do hope that GM will execute that move sometime in the future. The Pontiac G8 is a good start but it's going to take a lot more than that....

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by nsap

Keep in mind that Pontiac gone would mean an open slot for Saturn in the Buick-GMC dealership network. Saturn is the golden child at GM...the executives are convinced it is worth keeping.

"Golden child"? Hmmm. I wonder why? At least Cadillac sales went UP after getting a multi-billion dollar product infusion.

Anyway, closing Pontiac would indeed leave alot of Buick/GMC dealers with some open space. But what about all those stand-alone Saturn dealers? GM would have to add the cost of litigation and buy-outs to the costs associated with such a move. At least Pontiac is, at most dealers, sold along side the other 2 brands leaving the owner of the franchise with something of value.

It all seems such a waste. Why couldn't Pontiac continue in a smaller form? The Vibe is already built by the partnership with Toyota. The G8 is imported. And while that car is probably not profitable, GM did not spend a huge amount developing it only for NA. It is a global product sold under different brands in different regions. If there were a new G5 based on the Cruze, the development cost would be only in a little sheetmetal here, and facias there. And, as I wrote earlier, if there is to be a new G6, perhaps it could be a coupe and/or convertible only so it won't interfere with the LaCrosse or any of the other Epsilon II sedans.This would make Pontiac a fairly "fun-n-funky" kind of brand for GM. Pontiac doesn't have to be expensive to keep.

And doesn't the Vibe bring in alot of non-GM/domestic customers? And I thought I read the same was true of the G6.

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Saturn should be rolled into Pontiac. That would make one great product range: Commodore, Sportwagon, Ute, Corsa, Astra, Aura, Vue, Outlook and Sky/Solstice.

Amen to that.......people would definitely sit up and take notice then

[neqqy]

A year ago, Wagoner said they weren't going to cut ANY brands. Fact is, GM is out of money and need to focus on core brands. When drowning in freezing water, the first thing the body does is shut down the appendages to keep warmth in the critical parts as long as it can.

The whispers about killing Pontiac have been going on for years. I am not at all happy with what has happened to Pontiac and if cut, I suspect hundreds of thousands of customers will be lost to imports.

GM is wasting money desperately trying to get Europeans to like Cadillac. Buick has been neglected (in the U.S.) for years. Pontiac has two good cars (G8, Solstice) but they are money losers. The Cruze will be five years too late to be competitive. The Volt and its derivatives may end up being the biggest boondoggle ever produced by GM. Not because they won't be good but because no one will want to pay for them. Saturn is a bottomless hole. The executives are wrong to pin any hope on that brand. It is supposed to be a youthful brand but the youthful can't afford the upscaled lineup and older people still perceive them as plastic-sided college kid cars. The government is at best indifferent and, in parts, hostile to American manufacturing where other governments actively back their manufacturers. An increasing percentage of Americans don't care to buy American-made products (even at the peril of their own jobs).

Most of the blame in all of this can be leveled on shareholders for doing nothing to change the situation and management for not knowing when to pack up.

Originally Posted by Gm786

I don't think Pontiac is going anywhere anytime soon. Rick Wagoner has stated quite a few times that GM isn't cutting or selling any other division except for Hummer.

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by megeebee

And doesn't the Vibe bring in alot of non-GM/domestic customers? And I thought I read the same was true of the G6.

That's because everyone knows that its really a Toyota.