Pontiac's Uncertain Future

[Ttple]

In the eighties Pontiac was different. They were the sporty alternative. Then they became the gaudy alternative with all the plastic add ons. I thinks it's time to go.

[joshls]

Pontiac needs AWD. Period.

[marinerbc]

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

Although I have no stats on former Olds owners that jumped ship to imports, I do know that if Pontiac is axed I will part ways with GM and make sure I go right to Ford or Chrysler for a "spite" purchase. Call it what you will but treat the faithful like crap and watch us leave.

I too, would be in a Ford dealership faster than I could say the words "assembly line".

I was burnt badly by the huge mistake of killing Olds, and I won't tolerate it again. If GM is stupid enough (and I doubt that the Directors are) to deliberately alienate the people who buy their products, then they deserve Chapter 11, IMO.

[CharlotteFirebird]

Originally Posted by JoeT

GMC is heading to the big scrapyard in the sky anyway, so my Pontiac (Pontiac-Saturn) would only be saddled-up with Buick, and if I had things my way Buick would have the Holden Statesman/Caprice and Calais in their lineup too. A Holden-Opel-Pontiac-Buick alliance would be a great, with a few US models thrown in.

I agree that Pontiac/Saturn should equal Holden/Opel/Vauxhall elsewhere. This would allow GM to cut overlapping models and move Saturn under PBG. Pontiac and Saturn would be a full line TOGETHER. Pontiac would be RWD and Saturn would be FWD.

Cut the Outlook. Cut the Sky. Don't make the G3. Convert G5 and G6 to RWD Alpha. Offer the G8 with a manual 6 speed. Make the G6 coupe radically different from the coupe. DROP THE G NAMES. Drop the Vibe or AT MOST, give it to Saturn. Add a Saturn Gamma instead...whatever the Opel version is/will be:

1. Saturn Gamma
2. Astra
3. Aura
4. Saturn Delta Minivan
5. Vue
6. Alpha SWB Sedan G5 (named something else)
7. Alpha SWB Solstice
8. Alpha LWB G6 coupe (named something else)
9. Alpha LWB G6 sedan (named something else)
10. G8

There. No overlap. No division cut. Models reduced. Each serves the correct purpose. PBG gets a fuel efficient outlet (Saturn) and Pontiac/Saturn is essentially global and very similar to Holden/Opel, give or take a few models between markets.

Buick would be fit between Saturn/Pontiac and Caddy. It would share models with China and be mostly, if not solely, FWD, IMO.

[FBODYRULES]

I personally dont think pontiac will disappear anytime soon.
I think everyone is thinking too short term, things might be booming for GM in say 5 years or more, and then we'll be thinking different

[usa1]

Originally Posted by Chaz_23

But why kill Pontiac? It doesn't cost much to keep it alive - aside from giving a paycheck to Kimmel (for some reason) and some music-related waste of money. BPG would have less to sell- not a good idea either. Kill Pontiac and GMC and we'll have thousands of...Buick dealers. That wouldn't please them.

This is point that everyone seems to forget. Pontiac and GMC have organizationally been unified for around a decade. BPG have been on a convergence path for years.

You kill Pontiac, you kill GMC and Buick in the process.

No. The simpler solution is to nix Saturn and the fewer dealer they have and make the planned replacement Saturn cars Pontiacs and the planned replacement Saturn CUVs GMCs or Buicks.

Mark

[uvaeeman]

Originally Posted by WishIhadatruck

My last 2 cars (counting my current one) have been Pontiac GP's. Unfortunately right now they don't have anything that excites me at all. I'd love a G8 but unless it has a small diesel in it I can't really justify buying another gas hog. The V6 model would use more gas than my current GP and I want better fuel efficiency not worse. The current Epsilon cars are just too narrow so the G6 doesn't really work. Maybe the next generation will gain a little width. They way it is now I won't really miss Pontiac since I don't plan to buy one but I still hate to see them go.

Check your current GP's at fueleconomy.gov to see them using new CAFE numbers, and compare that to the G8. I have the 3800 in my Bonneville, and the numbers are pretty dang close to the V6 G8 numbers!

[Rocket 88]

Originally Posted by nikivee

You need to go back to basic business 101. Pontiac outsells Saturn and Buick almost 2 to one, and you think Pontiac will get cut? Oh, yeah, that makes perfect basic business sense.

Last month Saturn sold almost 20,000 vehicles. Pontiac sold 24,000. Considering Pontiac's higher rate of Fleet sales this means actual retail customers may have bough almost the same amount of Pontiacs and Saturns.

Saturn did this with just over 400 dealerships while Pontiac did this with over 2,000.

Saturn brings in more conquest sales of people who normally wouldn't puchase an American vehicle.

Saturn has a better lineup, probably a better future lineup, and a global connection to Opel.

Saturn also had a much smaller decline in month over month sales. for August. In fact the lowes decline of any GM division.

This is hardly a buisness 101 question to be decided on questionable 2:1 sales figures.

Originally Posted by FoMoCo Fan

These "brands" are nothing more than marketing labels. Unless GM can define a specific target consumer for the Pontiac brand, it should cease to exist. GM already has a mass market brand with products that range from $12,000-$100,000 in Chevrolet. Having another mass market brand is simply bad business. So either find some unique demographic to go after, or let it go the way of Oakland already!

Exactly.

IMO it seems like GM has to either:
1) Move the Saturn lineup to BPG and kill Pontiac. Pontiac products can be distributed to Buick and/or Chevrolet.
Or
2) Move the Satunr lineup to BPG and Kill Saturn then sell them as Pontiacs. This would probably still require moving or not replacing some of Pontiac's existing models.

[Aych Es Vee]

Make Pontiac a niche brand damn it.

I wish Pontiac could just have these models:

G8
G8 GT
G8 ST
G8 Sportwagon
Solstice
Alpha/Torana
GTO (hopefully!)
Firebird/Trans Am (re-skinned Camaro, like old times)


Pontiac really doesnt need anymore than that to totally change themselves for the good.

[Buick Riviera]

I thought that pontiac would get these Alpha platforum, and G6 would get these EPII-FWD/AWD platforum. Pontiac is not going anywhere. If anything pontiac will be more focuse on the alpha platforum, EPII platforum, then most. The zeta platforum is too heavy and Gm is going to have to use the Alpha Platforum for it's RWD cars. Being the next generation G8 sedan/G8 Truck, G8 Wagon, Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky, Chevolet Camaro, and/or other Larger RWD cars.

[megeebee]

I simply do not see the point in killing Pontiac. Shrinking, and in the process defining, the line up could be done. But elimination will only cut GM sales further.

GM is surely looking at the PBG channel as one line of vehicles. A Vibe. A G5 (E flex?), and an "Alpha" car. If there is a G6, make it a coupe or convertible only as to not compete with Mailbu or Aura. A line-up something like this would not overlap Buick, but complement it as well as a GMC line of FWD unibody crossovers and a couple BOF trucks.

Buick will have Enclave, LaCrosse, Lucerne, and what ever replaces it. Perhaps an "Alpha" based crossover?

Now, what to do with Saturn..........

[Exploder]

Quite frankly the only reason I'm not calling for the death of Pontiac is the G8. People say it should become the Impala should Pontiac die, but I am strongly opposed to that. I feel that the Impala should be an original American product by it's own. And I'm not sure I like the idea of the G8 becoming a Saturn since that would be at odds with their clean, green image (Nobody thinks "performance" when Saturn is mentioned, except maybe the Sky) So...how does Chevrolet Commodore sound?

I doubt most people will miss the other Pontiacs available at the moment if they were discontinued.

The only way to convince me to keep Pontiac is if they can make the most Pontiacish of Pontiacs such as a real GTO, Bonneville, Firebird etc. But since that's not going to happen...

[GM-Joe]

There will probably be a next-gen Solstice based on the Alpha platform (instead of a Kappa 2), the Vibe, a G8 truck, and the G8, a long with the 3 obvious re-badges, which is not too bad of a line-up to compliment Buick and GMC. Correct! Heck, they maybe able to push 600k units in a good economy. I don't expect Pontiac to go anywhere, especially with GM's global resources.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by igotzzoom

Yep. Sadly, the traditional GM brand heirarchy is having a hard time competing with leaner, more focused foreign brands which generally have 3 sub-brands at most.

There is nothing wrong with GM's brand heirarchy.
It is simply the lack of focus, and GM's continued propensity to overlap brands and product for the sake of volume, that makes GM less competitive.

The moment GM realizes that their archaic structure for car making no longer works in today's market, they'll be fine. In fact, they don't even have to get rid of any brands.

They just need to focus the cars to niches. But, GM doesn't know how to manage niche markets.

It's unfortunate that this has all come to a head. But it's all self-inflicted.

Originally Posted by nsap

Keep in mind that Pontiac gone would mean an open slot for Saturn in the Buick-GMC dealership network. Saturn is the golden child at GM...the executives are convinced it is worth keeping.

Saturn's strength comes from the fact that people still think Saturn is an import and is the most disassociated brand from the GM hegemony.

The more Saturn is assimilated into the collective, the more unnecessary baggage Saturn gains. And Saturn's advantage of customer service, unique style, and pricing are negated and gone.

It is a bad idea.
A smarter move would be to merge with Saab and start spinning a european marketing campaign around it.

[Gm786]

Originally Posted by sigma

May I be the first to say boo! Oh well, sweet dreams are made of promises that GM makes but never delivers.

With the situation the auto market and the economy is currently in, it's hard to live up to promises. That doesn't mean that you can't live up to them but GM as well as other automakers are trying to adjust to the new CAFE standards and that's not an easy task.