Pontiac's Uncertain Future

[marinerbc]

Originally Posted by vcs2600

Cute that you think that four posts settle the argument, but this is a dollars-and-cents decision made by GM management, not something decided on an internet forum.

If I understand the OP correctly, GM has determined that Pontiac simply does not have the sales potential for unique products, so they will get warmed-over Chevrolets. This is exactly what Pontiac has been doing for 20-30 years, so I don't see the big controversy here.

There's also plenty of Pontiac fanboys on this site that want the division killed if they can't be 100% pure RWD muscle cars. That's never going to happen either.

Cute that you think being condescending is "oh too chic" for words.

Your rambling doesn't change the fact that GM would lose a sizable number of GM buyers past and future, warmed over Chevrolets or not. You simply aren't paying attention again.

There are plenty of California GM hater fanboys on this site that want Pontiac killed too, but it isn't as if Californians know much about North American cars, so that opinion has the same weight with some of us as does our opinion of GM and Pontiac does to you.

[Millefune]

I would forgive all this if they made a G5 GXP with the turbo. I would actually try to buy one as my new daily driver since the 2.0L Turbo gets better mileage than the 2.4L N/A.

EDIT: Hey! I'm Californian!

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by marinerbc

Cute that you think being condescending is "oh too chic" for words.

Your rambling doesn't change the fact that GM would lose a sizable number of GM buyers past and future, warmed over Chevrolets or not. You simply aren't paying attention again.

There are plenty of California GM hater fanboys on this site that want Pontiac killed too, but it isn't as if Californians know much about North American cars, so that opinion has the same weight with some of us as does our opinion of GM and Pontiac does to you.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. (And suspect that neither do you.)

But the only thing that counts is profitability, so whatever happens depends on GM management's ability to come up with a proper plan for Pontiac and then execute it.

[eb110americana]

Pontiac's old lineup:

• Sunfire (coupe, sedan, & convertible)
• Grand Am (coupe & sedan)
• Grand Prix (coupe & sedan)
• Bonneville (sedan)
• Firebird/Trans Am (coupe & convertible)
• Trans Sport/Montana (minivan)

That's 6 models with 11 different body styles available (counting a coupe as unique from a sedan, etc.). Of these 11, only 2 were RWD.

Pontiac's current lineup:

• Vibe (tall wagon)
• G5 (coupe & sedan)
• G6 (coupe, sedan, & hardtop convertible)
• G8 (sedan & pickup)
• Solstice (coupe & convertible)
• Torrent (crossover SUV)

We still have 6 models and 11 different body styles available. Of these 11, only 4 are RWD.

Here is what I propose for Pontiac's future lineup:

• "X-factor" youth compact hatch based off of heavily modified Astra to fight Mini Cooper
• G4 (coupe & sedan)
• G6 (coupe & sedan)
• G8 (sedan)
• Solstice (coupe)
• GTO (coupe)

That's still 6 cars, but with only 8 body style variants. Moreover, the past and present lineups used 6 separate platforms to create a 6 model line. Not so with what I have proposed. The compact hatch would share Delta II, requiring less investment, but it would be a unique, volume model and Pontiac's only FWD vehicle. G4 would be a sub-compact, 4-cylinder-only, RWD sedan sharing a small RWD Kappa II architecture with Solstice and using some components from Alpha. Speaking of which, Alpha would underpin the G6 and GTO. Lastly, Zeta would support a G8--but would need to get lighter and more fuel efficient or die off as gas prices mean only the affluent can afford large performance sedans. That's a full lineup off only 4 platforms.

The former FWD G6 following would be split into several groups:
-Those wanting a FWD midsize car, who would be directed to Malibu, Aura, LaCrosse, or 9-5 (all on Epsilon II, many flavors to choose from)
-Those wanting a unique Pontiac performance sedan who would be able to buy a RWD G6 with slightly less interior volume, or select the smaller RWD G4
-Those wanting a fun, FWD Pontiac with decent interior space for very little money would purchase the compact hatch

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by eb110americana

Pontiac's old lineup:

• Sunfire (coupe, sedan, & convertible)
• Grand Am (coupe & sedan)
  
• Grand Prix (coupe & sedan)
• Bonneville (sedan)
• Firebird/Trans Am (coupe & convertible)
• Trans Sport/Montana (minivan)

That's 6 models with 11 different body styles available (counting a coupe as unique from a sedan, etc.). Of these 11, only 2 were RWD.

Pontiac's current lineup:

• Vibe (tall wagon)
  
• G5 (coupe & sedan)
• G6 (coupe, sedan, & hardtop convertible)
• G8 (sedan & pickup)
• Solstice (coupe & convertible)
• Torrent (crossover SUV)

We still have 6 models and 11 different body styles available. Of these 11, only 4 are RWD.

Here is what I propose for Pontiac's future lineup:

• "X-factor" youth compact hatch based off of heavily modified Astra to fight Mini Cooper
• G4 (coupe & sedan)
• G6 (coupe & sedan)
• G8 (sedan)
• Solstice (coupe)
• GTO (coupe)

That's still 6 cars, but with only 8 body style variants. Moreover, the past and present lineups used 6 separate platforms to create a 6 model line. Not so with what I have proposed. The compact hatch would share Delta II, requiring less investment, but it would be a unique, volume model and Pontiac's only FWD vehicle. G4 would be a sub-compact, 4-cylinder-only, RWD sedan sharing a small RWD Kappa II architecture with Solstice and using some components from Alpha. Speaking of which, Alpha would underpin the G6 and GTO. Lastly, Zeta would support a G8--but would need to get lighter and more fuel efficient or die off as gas prices mean only the affluent can afford large performance sedans. That's a full lineup off only 4 platforms.

The former FWD G6 following would be split into several groups:
-Those wanting a FWD midsize car, who would be directed to Malibu, Aura, LaCrosse, or 9-5 (all on Epsilon II, many flavors to choose from)
-Those wanting a unique Pontiac performance sedan who would be able to buy a RWD G6 with slightly less interior volume, or select the smaller RWD G4
-Those wanting a fun, FWD Pontiac with decent interior space for very little money would purchase the compact hatch

The last gen Grand Prix was never offered as a coupe, only as a sedan.
The G5, to my knowledge is not sold in the US as a sedan, at least not yet. I have never seen a G5 sedan, only a coupe. I go thru the local Pontiac dealer often & never seen any G5 sedans.

[eb110americana]

Originally Posted by LeSabre

The last gen Grand Prix was never offered as a coupe, only as a sedan.
The G5, to my knowledge is not sold in the US as a sedan, at least not yet. I have never seen a G5 sedan, only a coupe. I go thru the local Pontiac dealer often & never seen any G5 sedans.

True. I think the death of other large coupes like the Mark VIII, Eldorado, and Riviera due to slow sales pretty much saw to that. I was going for the 6th gen GP era rather than the 7th though, as by that time there was also no Firebird/Trans Am anymore, only the short lived GTO.

As for the G5, I was unsure about the existence of a US sedan model, but it appears you are correct. Though it does seem its addition is all but a foregone conclusion due to its current sales elsewhere. I also included the G8 ST and Solstice Targa in the list, neither of which are on sale yet. It seems a G5 sedan would be due before the G3 Aveo, no?

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

It shows GM marketing is a POS and that ~413 dealers were not going to create a return on the investment. You simply can not change a brands perception with one product cycle. If anyone expected Saturn sales to shoot up drastically was day dreaming. Unlike the popular belief here, Saturn having no legacy is a HUGE advantage over Pontiac. The public recognize Chevy, GMC, Pontiac, Buick, etc as GM products and will not consider them. Saturn does not have that issue. Hell, my cousin who is a huge car freak didn't know Saturn was GM until I told him.

No, GM can't change the perception in one product cycle. Even VW took two or three product cycles to change from "affordable German cars" to something more upscale than you're average Toyota or Chevy.

But as for Saturn and the "clean slate/no legacy" - this can be an advantage and can be a hinderance.

Yes, GM has an opportunity, but it also doesnt have the money to fully push the "new, repositioned Saturn" in the minds of the car-buying public. It may eventually happen, but it may also not. It didn't work for Oldsmobile, and it had just as extensive of a lineup as Saturn has right now.

As for Pontiac, even though it is recognized as part of GM, it is also has the advantage of being a "sporty brand". Many of the proposals and ideas that myself and others have stated is that this is a good thing - since GM can refine that "sporty perception" a bit to make Pontiac into a Mazda, Scion, VW type fighter. It can continue to offer a mix of RWD and FWD products, give them good handling, sharpe styling, and a compelling marketing campaign. And best of all, it wont cost GM a ton more money - because the brand is already in the ball park of where they are going with it.

All GM needs to do is pair Pontiac with both Opel for their smaller and midsized products and Holden for its larger products and they won't have to reinvent the wheel.

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Simple as this, GM could not make Pontiac what it needed to be( money and CAFE related). So instead of continuing to push out the same vehicle as Chevy, just put Pontiac out of its misery.

We all know that GM would have turned Pontiac into an all RWD lineup - but whos to say that this is the only vision for Pontiac? Could they not just move into the Mazda-esque direction? I say thats worth keeping them around for.

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

To the people who say why Pontiac= Holden like Saturn=Opel/Vauxhall, simple Holden as of now offers only 2 products to Pontiac: The Commodore and the Statesmen. The rest are rebadged Opel's. Two cars are not worth it to keep a whole division around. Plus, since Opel and Holden are already tied together, Holden's can come to the US as Saturns.

I agree, use the best of Opel and Holden to create a great lineup of cars. But instead of making them Saturns, I say make them Pontiacs. I laid out an argument on why Pontiac should be retained and Saturn dissolved in the Rumblings & Rants - and though I'm not going to lay out the entire argument here, there are many reasons why GM should retain Pontiac and kill Saturn.

Regardless, the status quo isn't good. GM needs to make a move and soon.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by tripowergto

While August was a bad month for Pontiac, it has been mostly ignored by GM investment wise. It's still soldiered on making money with reasonable sales volume even though GM has eliminated it's most popular models the Grand Prix, Grand Am and Bonneville renaming each replacement with a confusing G# scheme. Saturn has received an ENTIRE new line-up with BILLIONS in investment yet still doesn't come close to selling Pontiacs (albeit declining) sales figures. I'm with Nikivee, it's OBVIOUS which brand should be eliminated. Much easier to close up 415 Saturn dealers then 2700 Pontiac dealers.

Agreed. I understand the arguments for keeping Saturn, but also recognize the sheer and massive investment it will cost to not only close what stand alone Pontiac stores exist (probably a small amount) but also move Saturn stores into the existing 2800 or or so BPG locations. That ALSO will be a huge investment since GM will undoubtedly need to shell out money to get dealers to invest in carrying the brand.

But regardless, just as you say, Pontiac's total sales have dwindled, but is it any wonder when you get rid of their most popular nameplates, reduce the total number of products they sell and give them no advertising?

If GM sunk the same $18 BILLION in Pontiac that it did in Saturn then perhaps Pontiac would be outshining all expectations by now.

Regardless, its cheaper for them to close those 400+ locations than it would be for them to force other dealerships to add Saturn to their locations...

[JoeT]

Spot on, nadepalma. A renewed Pontiac, born of a Pontiac-Saturn merger would create a great quality brand with a full product lineup.

As I've said many times before, that would be Commodore, Sportwagon, Ute, Corsa, Astra, Aura, Vue, Outlook and Sky/Solstice.

Couple the new Pontiac with a revived, Statesman/Caprice and Calais selling Buick in their own premium dealerships and their futures will be set in stone.

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by jmiller417

If Pontiac's lineup must be largely FWD, GM should aim it at Mazda and still make it a sportier alternative. Let Chevy go after Toyota.

Even if most Pontiacs were rebadges, it wouldn't be quite so egregious if they made a genuine effort to make them sportier (and I don't mean by adding plastic cladding).

Absolutely. But lets see if they make the move and invest the dollars.

I'm curious as to what will happen to Pontiac as everyone else is. However, if they claim that the sales are down (even after dropping key products) then what will happen if sales rebound, even with simple rebagdes? It really makes me wonder - if Pontiac sales do rise even with minimal product investment and a lineup of Chevy rebadges, do they still NOT invest in the brand and think of cutting them?

Very curious indeed...

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by marinerbc

Me too. I am considering a Fusion or Focus if that happens.

The Pontiacs will both have to die first though, and that could take a very long time.

GM will have made an enemy, and I would do what I could to convince others to buy Ford, Chrysler or even Japanese before supporting a Pontiac-less GM.

There may be a lot of consumers and Pontiac loyalists out there that feel the same way.

For what its worth, I'm a Fusion owner and it's a good product :-)

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by JoeT

Spot on, nadepalma. A renewed Pontiac, born of a Pontiac-Saturn merger would create a great quality brand with a full product lineup.

As I've said many times before, that would be Commodore, Sportwagon, Ute, Corsa, Astra, Aura, Vue, Outlook and Sky/Solstice.

Couple the new Pontiac with a revived, Statesman/Caprice and Calais selling Buick in their own premium dealerships and their futures will be set in stone.

Thanks - and it seems others would agree.

But the best part is that it wouldn't cost GM anyting extra. If Pontiac were to draw products from both Opel and Holden, it would essentially make them the North American outlet for both brands and give them quite a bit of great product.

Let's see if they listen to us, huh?

Thanks my friend..

[JoeT]

No prob's mate. That's why I wrote my Pontiac, Buick & Saturn = One Amazing Brand! commentary a few months back.

[DemonKnightDK]

Thanks to the guy for posting the dimensions of the G8 and bonnie for me. After looking at the cars in person (my mom owns a bonnie and I had a lesabre up till a couple years ago) the G8 just didnt seem that big on the inside. I really hope the G8 wagon is around by the time I'm ready to buy.

[Orbit Orange]

Thanks to the guy for posting the dimensions of the G8 and bonnie for me.

Your welcome, no problem. I just wanted you to see that the G8 although 6 inches shorter actually has more usuable room inside and is wider with a wider wheelbase as well. Now testdrive one and you'll be hooked.