Pontiac's Uncertain Future

[tripowergto]

Originally Posted by buildacariwant

how did this turn into another which division to kill thread...i thought it was supposed to be about pontiac?

at this point GM cant save all these divisions and stay in business. and GM cant sell all brands under one roof. once you put all the divisions into a one stop shopping supercenter then there is no more brand equity or identity. and once the value each had is completely destroyed, GM goes under.

Think of it this way....somebody decides to combine mcdonalds wendys and burger king in one restaurant so all three can use the same buns, ketchup, soda, napkins, etc to save money and make a profit. and its a great idea and the customers wont mind. will they? wont all the food be different even though it came from the same kitchen?

so the menu has 3 versions of single patty burgers, chicken nuggets, fries, practically everything else too, but with a good tv ad we can convince everyone a mcnugget is different then the other 2 brands of nugget even though we started with the same chicken and fried them in the same grease.

the poor cashier is frustrated and wants to quit from spending most of his day trying to explain to 90% of the hungry lunch crowd that the whopper is basically the same thing as a 1/4 pounder except its $1.00 more and it has lettuce.

And yes they have the same bun, pickles, ketchup, and meat patty, and were cooked on the same grill....BUT THAT LETTUCE....omg its a totally different burger now. or look, we can make the meat square and now its a wendy's burger....just like before we combined stores.

the store owner knows this is stupid and says why cant we just sell and market one burger. but the franchise doesnt want to cut the whopper and just make lettuce an option on the 1/4 pounder because the people who eat the whopper will be mad and walk out and the 1/4 pounder guys will be mad that you can now add lettuce if you pay for it and it never had it before. and i mean adding lettuce ruins it right?

add that to the fact the restaurant next door was a stand alone burger king but now has all 3 inside too.

its ridiculous way to run a business and it wont work for GM either.

GM is losing billions and needs to cut the fat, sentiments need to be put to the side, and yea some customers will leave. but has to be done. i used to say all the divisions had a market but not anymore. goodbye pontiac saturn saab hummer gmc and maybe buick.

wouldnt you rather drive a chevelle or impala GM could commit to 110% then a 85% G8?

I'll give you that's a fantastic comparison, but at the end of the day, this guy stops buying GM IF they kill Pontiac. And, I've purchased MANY!!

[Gm786]

Originally Posted by neqqy

A year ago, Wagoner said they weren't going to cut ANY brands. Fact is, GM is out of money and need to focus on core brands. When drowning in freezing water, the first thing the body does is shut down the appendages to keep warmth in the critical parts as long as it can.

The whispers about killing Pontiac have been going on for years. I am not at all happy with what has happened to Pontiac and if cut, I suspect hundreds of thousands of customers will be lost to imports.

GM is wasting money desperately trying to get Europeans to like Cadillac. Buick has been neglected (in the U.S.) for years. Pontiac has two good cars (G8, Solstice) but they are money losers. The Cruze will be five years too late to be competitive. The Volt and its derivatives may end up being the biggest boondoggle ever produced by GM. Not because they won't be good but because no one will want to pay for them. Saturn is a bottomless hole. The executives are wrong to pin any hope on that brand. It is supposed to be a youthful brand but the youthful can't afford the upscaled lineup and older people still perceive them as plastic-sided college kid cars. The government is at best indifferent and, in parts, hostile to American manufacturing where other governments actively back their manufacturers. An increasing percentage of Americans don't care to buy American-made products (even at the peril of their own jobs).

Most of the blame in all of this can be leveled on shareholders for doing nothing to change the situation and management for not knowing when to pack up.

I don't think Pontiac's going anywhere. All GM needs to do is properly nurish the division with cars worthy of the Pontiac badge such as the G8 and the Solstice. Product is the key and I think GM knows that but the problem is cash to put into R&D. Selling Hummer is the right move on GM's part and maybe GM might pour some of the cash they acquire from the sale of Hummer into Pontiac and their other divisions. All in all I think Pontiac's going to stay with GM.

[DemonKnightDK]

I was planning on a pontiac for my first NEW purchase after college. I remember people claimed the G8 would have the interior space of a bonnie and the actual size of a GP.. well I looked at it and its about exactly the same as a GP. I want the size of a bonnie.

I'm a die hard pontiac and buick fan. BUT GM hasent made the kinda pontiac that made me a fan in almost 6 years.. I fell in love with the firebird in the 80s (I was born in 83, sp that body style is like my body style..) I will move to mazda or nissan for my next car if GM contiunes this way... (cause I dont think I can afford the insurance of a caddy or the cost of a caddy... not right out of college.. I would have LOVED a G8 SportWagon.. ya know, cause every one is rich enough to buy a caddy wagon...

I've been saying for a wile now that what is currently saturn SHOULD have simply been pontiac. imagine if the aura had launched as the New G6 (or called it by a real name.. Tempest ? Grand Am, hell even star cheif of cheiften.. if a pontiac had gotten that COTY award instead of saturn, then updated the Grand Prix with the G8 platform, not make a G8.. there are two new cars suddenly that have instant name brand, COTY status probably on both, throw in the wagon on the G8 to replace the torrent, and bring a modded HHR with AWD and the LNF to replace the Vibe.

Grand Am
Grand Prix
Saphari SUV (which is nothing more than Grand Prix Wagon)
Vibe (re bodied HHR)

oh and the Coblat SS brought over as the SunFire. start it with the SS as the base.

as it stands now, I dont know what I will buy.. but at this rate it will probably be a 2004 Bonnie SLE or GXP. it should tell me somthing when the most sought after pontiacs are not made any more... seriously, Firebird people love it, the Bonnie, A budy of mine worked at a dealership and has said many times people would NOT trade in their bonnie when they were shopping cause there wasent a new bonnie to trade in on..

[Gm786]

Originally Posted by hotrod747

I can't really say RWD is the answer in this case. Pontiac just really needs focus and dedication to performance that includes both front, real and awd cars. Look at Mazda, Nissan, and BMW's Mini Cooper. They must make performance an obvious trait in their new products and stop trying to be everything to all consumers. If you are not about performance, then go to chevy, saturn or buick.

Yeah well, long ago Pontiac used to be known as GM's performance division and their cars were RWD not FWD. Now I'm not saying that you can't make a proper sporty car with FWD, I'm saying that overall RWD or AWD in terms of performance is better than FWD for a car that's supposed to perform. Yeah maybe Pontiac should have one FWD car but at least make the rest either RWD or offer them with AWD. I'm not against FWD, but I do believe that GM should make either a RWD or AWD transformation for Pontiac's cars.

[Orbit Orange]

I was planning on a pontiac for my first NEW purchase after college.

Awesome.

But do yourself a favor. Go drive a G8 and a Bonnie for that matter and I think you'll have a much clearer answer to your dilemma.

[longislander]

I'm not a marketing professional so I can't speak from that perspective. I can only speak from the point of view of the owner of 4 GM cars, 3 of which are Pontiacs.
Will someone please explain to me why rebadged Chevys are so bad ? For example, the G5 to my eye is better looking than the Cobalt. It also wears the more upscale Pontiac nameplate. I was born in the 50's and in my mind, Chevy is the poor man's car and I just don't want to drive one. So the couple of extra dollars it cost GM to design a new grill, taillights and interior trim for the G5 is made up by the couple of extra dollars it costs over the Cobalt, and it provided a product that suited me better. Where is the downside of this ? I simply don't understand who suffers...not me, not my Pontiac dealer, not GM...what am I missing here ?

[Orbit Orange]

Also for DK

Bonnie listed first then G8

wheelbase 112.2 vs 114.8
length 202.6 vs 196.1
width 74.2 vs 74.8
height 56.6 vs 57.7
track front 62.6 vs 62.7
track rear 62.1 vs 63.3
weight 3790(GXP) vs. 3995(GT)
headroom f/r 38.7/37.3 vs 38.7/38
legroom f/r 42.6/38 vs 42.2/39.4
shoulderroom f/r 59/58.3 vs 59.1/59.1
hiproom f/r 55.7/56.4 vs 56.7/58

The G8 is larger/roomier in most every category. The only one it is not is overall length which the Bonnie wins but what do you get out of those extra 6 inches??? Nothing really. The G8 is a BIG mid-sized car and blows the old Bonnie away IMO. Give it a try.

[buildacariwant]

Originally Posted by 1957wildcat

Nope. I'd much rather have a Pontiac G8 than the others you mentioned. Keep Pontiac and Buick - without them, GM isn't GM.

Keep in mind at GMs current pace (and the other US Automakers) the only affordable RWD sedan will be from Hyundai. Rather GM have one mainstream RWD (and only one of everything else) and get in the black then bankrupt and closed or sold of like Chrysler.

[Orbit Orange]

Rather GM have one mainstream RWD (and only one of everything else) and get in the black then bankrupt and closed or sold of like Chrysler.

This may make sense but when it comes to a Pontiac fan/enthusiast it won't cut it as evidenced by myself and many others in this thread who have said they will part ways with GM if Pontiac is axed. I won't speak for the others but I don't really want a Impala because more than likely it will have a grandpa-like interior with cheesy fake shiny wood accents, bland gray interior, cushier ride and handling and overboosted steering and brake feel. Add to that that every taxi, police force and rental agency will have them turns me off faster than Bea Arthur in a thong.

Your point may very well be true (not trying to attack here) but I'll jump ship if it happens.

[marinerbc]

Originally Posted by buildacariwant

wouldnt you rather drive a chevelle or impala GM could commit to 110% then a 85% G8?

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

In all honesty, NO.

Originally Posted by 1957wildcat

Nope. I'd much rather have a Pontiac G8 than the others you mentioned. Keep Pontiac and Buick - without them, GM isn't GM.

Originally Posted by tripowergto

I'll give you that's a fantastic comparison, but at the end of the day, this guy stops buying GM IF they kill Pontiac. And, I've purchased MANY!!

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

This may make sense but when it comes to a Pontiac fan/enthusiast it won't cut it as evidenced by myself and many others in this thread who have said they will part ways with GM if Pontiac is axed. I won't speak for the others but I don't really want a Impala because more than likely it will have a grandpa-like interior with cheesy fake shiny wood accents, bland gray interior, cushier ride and handling and overboosted steering and brake feel. Add to that that every taxi, police force and rental agency will have them turns me off faster than Bea Arthur in a thong.

Your point may very well be true (not trying to attack here) but I'll jump ship if it happens.

Game, Set, match.

Good game, Pontiac haters. You'll want to spend more time on your backhand before the next match, however, as you were widely outplayed.

[RedVee8]

Originally Posted by Rocket 88

Good point about the fleet sales. As someone else also wrote here, merging Saturn into BPG with or without Pontiac also could be detremental to Saturn. This is because it Saturn will loose its view as seperate from GM for the consumer, would (I assume) have to give up haggle free pricing and would probably get a hit in their excellent customer service.

I didn't think of what I wrote earlier as a plan I really endorse, just what I think GM might have to do.

As much as I can see a Saturniac/Ponturn merge model as a good option, I wonder about folding Saturn into BPG as an entity. As Rocket88 says, wasn't the point of Saturn that it wasn't really GM. Don't they still cling to that image through not allowing GM Card points to be used in Saturn shops?
I know that Saab is now regarded as a GM division, but does the general public see them in that light?
If not, there are two divisions that could perhaps benefit from extra sales outlets, Saab & Saturn. Surely, they are more complimentary than Saturn and BPG? If a Saab dealer is positioned in a spot with no Saturn rep, perhaps it could help both the Saab dealer and Saturn to offer a Saturn franchise to them?

On the overlap with Pontiac and Saab, I remember a contribution regarding the Acadia and Outlook, basically the arguement was that it was ok that they were so similar because there was no way on earth that a GMC buyer would look at a Saturn (and vice versa?) & Saturn sell so few vehicles anyway.... Would the same apply with Pontiac and Saturn? If so, doesn't that make Saturn a 'perfect' rebadge brand as they seem to operate (in the publics mind) in isolation from GM? Therefore, not in a deathmatch with Pontiac?

[SCCA1995]

Originally Posted by buildacariwant

Keep in mind at GMs current pace (and the other US Automakers) the only affordable RWD sedan will be from Hyundai. Rather GM have one mainstream RWD (and only one of everything else) and get in the black then bankrupt and closed or sold of like Chrysler.

Fortunately, Chrysler isn't being chopped & sold off...yet. If this "Project Genesis" doesn't work, then I fear the worst for them.

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

I won't speak for the others but I don't really want a Impala because more than likely it will have a grandpa-like interior with cheesy fake shiny wood accents, bland gray interior, cushier ride and handling and overboosted steering and brake feel. Add to that that every taxi, police force and rental agency will have them turns me off faster than Bea Arthur in a thong.

That's one of those images I don't want to think about.

Originally Posted by Orbit Orange

Your point may very well be true (not trying to attack here) but I'll jump ship if it happens.

It may be too late. Other than a G8 (ST in my case), Pontiac offers me very little for an enthusiast. The G5 is nice if I was on a tight budget & needed great fuel economy. The slight nose job on the 2010 G6 looks better than what it had. It's still king of the rental cars though.

[tripowergto]

It's cool there are a few of us here that intend to purchase a G8 ST. I wish they would release it sooner though as I need the hauling capacity. At least it looks like we have a few RWD Pontiac choices remaining for a few more years. Does anyone know when the Solstice Targa coupe will be at dealerships?

[vcs2600]

Originally Posted by marinerbc

Game, Set, match.

Good game, Pontiac haters. You'll want to spend more time on your backhand before the next match, however, as you were widely outplayed.

Cute that you think that four posts settle the argument, but this is a dollars-and-cents decision made by GM management, not something decided on an internet forum.

If I understand the OP correctly, GM has determined that Pontiac simply does not have the sales potential for unique products, so they will get warmed-over Chevrolets. This is exactly what Pontiac has been doing for 20-30 years, so I don't see the big controversy here.

There's also plenty of Pontiac fanboys on this site that want the division killed if they can't be 100% pure RWD muscle cars. That's never going to happen either.

[Orbit Orange]

if they can't be 100% pure RWD muscle cars. That's never going to happen either.

Agreed. I even think it is OK if Pontiac has one MAYBE two rebadges if they are done correctly. The problem is if Pontiac becomes nothing but a arrowhead/dart emblem on a Chevy division then I'm gone. If they get axed, I'm gone. Pontiac can be restructured and still offer the diehards what we want. It will take time and most importantly MONEY. Will GM do it? I don't know as well as 99.99999% of everyone else on this board.