Pontiac: Start Making Sense

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by ragingfish

You're right. Pontiac will never have the track record of unreliability, electrical nightmares, and days-in-the-shop that BMW and other german brands are becoming notorious for.

GM DOES have the resources to do whatever the hell they want to Pontiac. It's getting those execs with the sticks up their a**es to stop babying Chevy and finally do something. If ANY brand got half the resources Chevy did, we wouldn't be in this position today.

Too bad people trust in BMW's reliability before they trust in Pontiac's. And how things are going so far, Pontiac will NEVER earn the reputation that BMW has for peformance. Driving excitment ? Action? Its all a joke, and Pontiac doesen't even live up to its advertisment slogans. Even Mazda has more driving exciment than Pontiac. Sorry, but a rice package on an otherwise great looking coupe isn't very exciting.

[Elk]

Ghrankenstein
There is a massive problem with your post. You say things like “Pontiac’s brand managers” and “Pontiac’s engineers”.

There is Pontiac brand manager, but it’s basically a marketing job they can make suggestions when it comes to new product, but have no real say.

There are no Pontiac engineers or designers, in fact there are no Chevy, GMC, Buick or Saturn engineers or designers. They are all GM engineers or designers and they work on whatever brands product they need to. The guy that styled new Corvette is the same guy that did the Aztek.

The group of management that decides what Pontiac gets is the same group that decides what Chevy, GMC, Buick and Saturn get.

All you people that think Saturn is better then Pontiac because they are getting better cars because they have independent management guess what. The last independent vehicle Saturn made was the ION. All these new vehicles that everyone is holding up as proof not killing Saturn was the right thing to do aren’t Saturn any more then the G6 is a Pontiac.

And for the people that keep say stuff like “The G6 base models should have 300 hp and AWD and a manual” come back to reality. The 3-Series base only has 215 hp and it’s actually from a niche performance brand. AWD adds cost and hurts fuel economy. And maybe on the internet everybody wants a FWD mid-size sedan with a sick, but in the real world where GM has to sell cars people don’t. Don’t believe me just look at the numbers. The Mazda 6 sold 66,203 in 2006 down 7.3% from 2005. The G6 sold 157,644 in 2006 which is up 26.3% from 2005.

[Ghrankenstein]

There are no Pontiac engineers or designers, in fact there are no Chevy, GMC, Buick or Saturn engineers or designers. They are all GM engineers or designers and they work on whatever brands product they need to. The guy that styled new Corvette is the same guy that did the Aztek.

The group of management that decides what Pontiac gets is the same group that decides what Chevy, GMC, Buick and Saturn get.

Maybe so, but someone is responsible for making Pontiacs different from Chevrolets. In the case of the Grand Prix and G6, they did a very good job. That's why I give whoever that is the due props.

Someone also dreamed up the various designations and sub-brands, and someone decided that GXP could mean high-performance on one product and simply top of the line on another product. To me, that doesn't make sense, especially when Chevrolet seems to have figured it out.

You don't have to sell me on the G6. While a 3.5L with a Saab manual transaxle would be a great thing (that dealers would only order by accident), a 224 hp G6 that stickers at $21,000 and out-handles the pricier big-wheeled variants represents a worthy performance value. I just wish that Pontiac would remind people that it has such a car.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Ghrankenstein

Maybe so, but someone is responsible for making Pontiacs different from Chevrolets. In the case of the Grand Prix and G6, they did a very good job. That's why I give whoever that is the due props.

Someone also dreamed up the various designations and sub-brands, and someone decided that GXP could mean high-performance on one product and simply top of the line on another product. To me, that doesn't make sense, especially when Chevrolet seems to have figured it out.

You don't have to sell me on the G6. While a 3.5L with a Saab manual transaxle would be a great thing (that dealers would only order by accident), a 224 hp G6 that stickers at $21,000 and out-handles the pricier big-wheeled variants represents a worthy performance value. I just wish that Pontiac would remind people that it has such a car.

When it comes to styling the brand manager doesn’t really have a say. That’s up to the group of management that decides which brand gets what. It’s like what I said about the guy that went from doing the Aztek to the Corvette.

What cars get GXP badges that would be under the brand manager control.

[Ghrankenstein]

Originally Posted by Elk

When it comes to styling the brand manager doesn’t really have a say. That’s up to the group of management that decides which brand gets what. It’s like what I said about the guy that went from doing the Aztek to the Corvette.

What cars get GXP badges that would be under the brand manager control.

Okay then. GM decides what Pontiac does. GM did a good job of differentiating the Grand Prix from the other W-bodies, the G6 from the other Epsilons, and a poor job of making the Torrent uniquely Pontiac. GM did a good job of making the Solstice and SKY, and the High-Performance Pontiac Variant [(exxed-out) GXP] and High-Performance Saturn [(exxed-out) Redline] variants of each. GM decided to make SS mean something, and GM decided that GXP would mean less, when GM should have made GXP mean more.

I'm only trying to give out some credit where it was due, and separate that credit from blind, dumb marketing. How does that change my argument, and why would you want to blur everything to meritlessness? I doubt that you actually do, but I want to understand your perspective.

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Ghrankenstein

Okay then. GM decides what Pontiac does. GM did a good job of differentiating the Grand Prix from the other W-bodies, the G6 from the other Epsilons, and a poor job of making the Torrent uniquely Pontiac. GM did a good job of making the Solstice and SKY, and the High-Performance Pontiac Variant [(exxed-out) GXP] and High-Performance Saturn [(exxed-out) Redline] variants of each. GM decided to make SS mean something, and GM decided that GXP would mean less, when GM should have made GXP mean more.

I'm only trying to give out some credit where it was due, and separate that credit from blind, dumb marketing. How does that change my argument, and why would you want to blur everything to meritlessness? I doubt that you actually do, but I want to understand your perspective.

When people talk about Pontiac like it’s a independent brand and then about the bad things that have been done with it leads to “GM should kill Pontiac”.

What I want people to see that there is one group of management and reason Pontiac gets the rebadge Torrent while Saturn gets the VUE is because they are favoring Saturn. Not because Saturn is some independent brand with better management.

[gmlifer]

It looks like that GM has decided that the only way for Saturn and Pontiac to survive is to make Saturn=Opel and Pontiac=Holden.
Too bad it has to be that way but that's the way it has to be done to compete with too many brands in the market place.

If you think of GM as a global company,which it has to be to retain something close to their past market share, then that is not necessarily a bad thing.
Opel makes great cars with great designs and Holden has the most affordable V-8 RWD cars in GM's stable. The Holden Commodore is one HOT CAR and fits nicely with the image that Pontiac needs.

I'll take a V-8 RWD Holden with a Pontiac badge anyday over no Pontiac at all. Keep in mind that the new Commodore was designed by GM's best with the US market in mind , so it's more like a joint venture and not just a rebadge of a Holden.

[Grizzlor]

Take a look at the 1996-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix, of which I own. Very cool, unique styling, and nice options. They hadn't gotten to the big power 3.9L and V8 GXP's yet, but regardless, they sold a TON of those cars. When they came out with the 2004, I took one look, and said, oh man, they ruined that car! Pontiac doesn't need it's own underneath design, although the current lineup boasts the best performance in a long time. But the sytling of the cars has been aweful since Lutz came in.

[page2171]

Originally Posted by Grizzlor

Take a look at the 1996-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix, of which I own. Very cool, unique styling, and nice options. They hadn't gotten to the big power 3.9L and V8 GXP's yet, but regardless, they sold a TON of those cars. When they came out with the 2004, I took one look, and said, oh man, they ruined that car! Pontiac doesn't need it's own underneath design, although the current lineup boasts the best performance in a long time. But the sytling of the cars has been aweful since Lutz came in.

I know what you mean. I felt the same way too when the 2004 came out. I would love to have a 97-03 Grand Prix with an interior like the GTO.

[LeSabre]

I like the '96-'03 & the '04-'07 Grand Prix's. Though I didn't initially didn't like the '04 Grand Prix. My ex-gf had gotten herself a black '05 Grand Prix GTP Comp G & that was the end of my disliking that design. I'd like to get a car like hers for myself. I think its a sweet car!

[WildGMFan]

"Pontiac: Start Making Sense" ...I think at this point it is safe to say that until the Holden re-badged Pontiac G8 gets here...Pontiac has no idea what they are doing or why they are even in existance at this point in time.

[90GP99FB]

I'd rather be a Holden re-badge than a Chevy re-badge. No offense to Chevy, but Holden is taking on BMW in performance while being cheaper in Aussie, and that's what Lutz promised we'd get out of Pontiac. And then we'd have different cars between Chevy and Pontiac, which really can't be said now.

[guitarlix]

Originally Posted by 90GP99FB

I'd rather be a Holden re-badge than a Chevy re-badge. No offense to Chevy, but Holden is taking on BMW in performance while being cheaper in Aussie, and that's what Lutz promised we'd get out of Pontiac. And then we'd have different cars between Chevy and Pontiac, which really can't be said now.

I think this is the right direction for Pontiac to take.

[jzchev28]

im hopeing the future will be bright for pontiac...only time will tell. but holden does have some amazeing vechicals. i hope we also get a much more agressive G6 as well.