Is Pontiac Really The Best Partner For Holden?

[usa1]

Buick has a long tradition or products and advertising that have tailored to the older set. The old 1980's GS and GNX were oddities for Buick, even when they were in their line up and would be completely out of place today. Making a Buick performance coupe at the expense of Pontiac makes no sense in my mind.

Mark

[ctaylorzl1]

Originally Posted by usa1

Buick has a long tradition or products and advertising that have tailored to the older set. The old 1980's GS and GNX were oddities for Buick, even when they were in their line up and would be completely out of place today. Making a Buick performance coupe at the expense of Pontiac makes no sense in my mind.

Mark

I kinda agree, with the new Coupe 60 and G8 sedan, it would be a waste IMO to give these cars to Buick(not that Buick couldnt also get their own Zeta also). I think that Pontiac should be a close partner to Holden. Even in lite of new CAFE regs I still think there could be RWD performance cars comming out of Pontiac, give Pontiac the G8, and the ST, and the Coupe and whatever else. I think if GM wants to put the effort in it, Pontiac can still be a great affordable performance brand!

[scotted73]

I like the idea of Pontiac as Holden's NA arm. This is the image Pontiac needs to instill the "excitement" back into itself. The aggressive nose and edge of seat performance define Pontiac. Keep the line to just cars.

Pontiac as an all out Performance brand and Buick as the Luxury brand. Technology from both of these brands merge and are used in Cadillac.

Some people want performance without all of the "excessive" stuff luxury vehicles provide.
As others have stated, Buick doesn't equate to a high performance image. I would like to see some great sedans and a convertible in their lineup along with the Enclave.

Keeping the number of models for each division to a manageable number would allow for equal representation at the BPG dealerships. You walk into the showroom and clearly understand what each brand brings to the table.

[Rick_VT]

Originally Posted by TaHoE

I disagree with this as a whole. The G8, even though it has a new fascia and slightly altered rear end, looks like a Pontiac. Buick is all about curves and classic American styling, which Holden cannot be adapted to. They would have to re-design every little element. Why not have Pontiac AND Buick base their cars off of these designs. Pontiac focusing on pure performance and Buick on more comfortable but super luxurious elements. I thought this was the plan to begin with?

What about if both Pontiac and Buick both had versions of Alpha and Zeta and they made them both at the same plant, surely with the same platform goin down the line it shouldnt create to many problems in the plant, as long as they do completely diff interiors to match what role the car has and diff front and rear end styling which is a must they should be able to do them both.

Big economies of scale from having 2 cars on same platform to so they could use the money saved to concentrate on the styling part to make sure they both look completely diff to each other.

But why doesnt Buick just share platforms with Caddilac?? Wouldnt it be sensible to tie up the 2 luxury brands together?? That way they could both use DI versions of the 3.6 and help spread the cost around to make cheaper for other brands to use later and also they could use a modern DOHC V8 again shared to help economies of scale, then Holden Chev and Pontiac can use the cheaper LS series motors

That way Holden and Pontiac can be tied up together and i so wish Holden could sell one of the Kappas here, personally myself i prefer the styling of the Saturn version.

That could work woudlnt it??

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by TaHoE

Why not have Pontiac AND Buick base their cars off of these designs. Pontiac focusing on pure performance and Buick on more comfortable but super luxurious elements. I thought this was the plan to begin with?

I Pontiac stripped down to Kappa/Alpha/Zeta(VE) and paired with a Buick line up of DeltaII/EpsilonII/Zeta(WM) would have made great sense. I think this WAS the plan. But now information suggests that CAFE (and likely unsaid is GM's money issues) mean that the G8 probably doesn't live past one generation.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by scotted73

I like the idea of Pontiac as Holden's NA arm.

Why?

If you go with the logic that Pontiac would be limited to cars only, Holden offers the following products, most of which are currently sourced from or will be shared in the future on new platforms with other GM brands:

Caprice/Statesman = nice Buick/Cadillac
Commodore = Pontiac, but just as easily Chevy or Saturn
Epica / replacement on Epsilon II already pegged for Chevy, Saturn and maybe Buick.
Astra = Saturn
Viva = I'm not sure what this is but it looks like a Suzuki
Barina = Aveo

In the US, the only exclusive Pontiac product is the Vibe, and its a Toyota. To this end, it would have been just as easy to make the G8 the top of the range Saturn to fit with its other "all-international" line up. Alternatively, the VE could be dressed up to be the Cadillac STS/DTS replacement leaving the longer WM for Buick.

Pontiac really is a dead brand. Sure there are a bunch of people here at GMI and the autoblogasphere that are true enthusiasts for what the brand was 30-40 years ago. But that image has not connection with the majority of the market today.

[YupYupYup]

All great comments on here. Nice discussion.

I can see either Holden supplying Pontiac, but that would mean lower volume for Pontiac. Still currency and other issues to deal with. I can also see Pontiac go away, inplace of it would be a Buick division that would carry two lines...One for luxury and one for sport. BMW/ Lexus, anyone?

By the way, it is interesting to note how Holden seems to be ditching the "conservative", "humble" styling that so many professed was what Aussies only liked. That front emblem is by no means "bland", nor are the hood/ bonnet vents or Viper-esque side pipes. And I did I mention no B-pillar?

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by YupYupYup

I can also see Pontiac go away, inplace of it would be a Buick division that would carry two lines...One for luxury and one for sport. BMW/ Lexus, anyone?

How about:

Buick v. Lexus
Cadillac v. BMW v. Merc

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Is Pontiac Really The Best Partner For Holden?

A MonaroSS Commentary
2 February 2008

The recent reveal of the Holden Coupe 60 at the Melbourne International Motor Show raises some interesting questions about the future of Holden manufacturing and design and where in the GM Universe they are best to make alliances.

This is especially important given the continuing decline of the Greenback and the inevitable rise of China as a world economic power and now one of GM’s best market places.

Personally, I'm not so sure Holden should be linked with Pontiac into the future. While Pontiac has traditionally been in the distant past a Performance Division, especially after they introduced the ‘Wide Track’ vehicles, that performance was always more working class in nature. It was affordable performance. If Holden is to be the manufacturing base for Pontiac vehicles then the affordable is going to be increasingly harder to achieve. This is a simple fact of the current global economy, and yet GMNA seems to have little interest in producing large RWD platforms in North America now due to negative impacts on CAFÉ.

So who would make a better partner for Holden? I have done some Buick versions of the Coupe60 as Buick's can sell for more money in America than any Pontiac (easier to make a profit even with the high A$) and certainly they can extract a premium in China.

I think Holden can do a deal with GM China for a top of the line Premium Coupe/Convertible with the Chinese Park Avenue Interior a ready fit, and which will sit well above the more economical FWD V6 Riviera Coupe. Furthermore this would allow Holden’s HSV (Buick Special Vehicles in China/US) to make super hot V8 Buick Gran Sport's, Grand National's and GSX's. And quite a few of those could be sold through US Buick dealerships.

Just a Premium Buick Coupe/Convertible in China is all that Holden would need for 25K – 30K sales or more a year out of the 1 million GM vehicles sold in China annually. This partnership would allow Holden to forget the US as anything more than a niche market that it can service like the UK with premium priced niche vehicles.

The US doesn't need a heap of Buick Coupes as they will have Camaro and the Cadillac Coupe, but a small number of Buick coupes priced high for profit (something GM needs to do more of) done as GS - LS3, GNX - TT3.6 and GSX - LS9 will not step on Camaro as they will be way too expensive and will not step on Cadillac as they will be too Large, Brutish and Muscular, even if comfortable and well equipped.

So what is the best option to secure Holden's export future. With the premium Buick brand or the performance focus of Pontiac?

MIMS: Monaro's Back! Holden Coupe 60 Unvealed!
Buick Park Avenue In China

Great work on the "chops" but to me, the GS needs to look a little more like this with a more aggressive grille (but not a "retro copy" but more like the '70 version than what you are showing) some scoops with body olor contrasts and split hood strip.

And it is hard to improve on Saturn Yellow:

1970 Buick GS 455

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...-history.shtml

As far as Pontiac being the best partner, I say yes it is, not that Buick could not "get" a model or two.

Buick will need some RWD models if it is ever to be a true Lexus competitor.

[Hoosier Red]

I really don't think Pontiac or Buick need to go away, but they need to accelerate the PBG stores. That really allows each to focus much more closely on their mission without making compromises for the sake of volume. I'm still not convinced that big engine/RWD is the formula for success for Pontiac. Pontiac needs to become GM's hip, youth brand. A rebel attitude is perfect next door to Buick with the idea that you could bring down the average age of the Buick buyer. Pontiac and Buick should both be 3 vehicles max......maybe a fourth allowed for a niche halo vehicle in each brand. For example, the Solstice would be the fourth Pontiac. A Velite or Wildcat type car for Buick could serve that role.

[SpanielRage]

A Coupe 60-based Buick is intriguing. About every 15-20 years, Buick gets a wild hair up its a$$ and pulls off a high performance coupe and regains their reputation as building "banker's hot rods", bring a new generation of buyers into the fold, and then disappears into building boring rides for businessmen with car allowances and geriatrics who are moving up from Chevrolets or are too cheap to buy a Cadillac. Going back to the Century Specials of the '30's, '50's Specials, late '60's/early '70's GS/GSX, and the '80's Regal T-Type Regal/Grand National/GNX, each one had conservative styling (even the GSX and GNX were conservative by the standards of the day), but fast, bulletproof, and reasonably priced. More importantly, when Buick pulled something like this off (especially the late 60's GS/GSX, '80's T-Type Regal/GN/GNX), the engines were always something special (the Buick 455 is the most under-appreciated big block of the musclecar era and the turbo Regals are still feared at the drags). Giving a Coupe-60 a DI V6 and a turbo V6 version makes sense. Currently, the Holden range is lacking a V6 turbo. Slap something similar to the Saab 9-3's turbo on a 3.6 DI motor, give it about 400 hp with decent fuel economy, let Buick sales cover the production costs, give it the Holden Calais V's interior, and you'll have a winner. [For those of you who posted saying Holden is too down market need to check out the Holden Calais. Much nicer interior than the G8 is getting.]

Sadly, I feel like it's 1973 all over again, and if CAFE doesn't kill the fun cars, the insurance companies and safety nazis will.

[Vette Ninja]

Originally Posted by PontiacBixler

1000% agree with you MonaroSS.....

Finally someone with enough cred on here to make that statement and not get flamed back to the stone age. Everyone knows I've never been a big "Holden + Rebadge = Pontiac" fan. But for Buick I think your mockups prove that they could invigorate that brand.

I wish Saturn would have gotten someone else, since to me personally Opel would have made a better choice based on style alone for the Pontiac brand.

I'm also glad that more people are finally coming out and calling "horsesh!t" on the whole "BMW-Fighter" concept for Pontiac that was ill-conceived years ago.

Great job MonaroSS!

Honestly, I think that Holdens don't fit in at all here. But if GM insists on selling them here, I don't care who has to sell them, as long as it isn't Pontiac anymore!!

Opel works for Saturn. Saturn needed a rebirth, a new identity. Pontiac, however, needs a return to form.

[Aych Es Vee]

Just bring Holden to USA......

I'd say 'get rid of Pontiac and Buick', but seriously, wouldnt that really hurt GM? .... like .... the must be so many Pontiac loyalists out there, and totally throwing out any thought of the Firebird/Trans Am, or GTO ..... EVER coming back seems like a bad idea.


Once the Torana comes (still hoping), Holden would have an awesome line up for USA:

Commodore V6
Commodore SS V8
Calais V6 and V8

Sportwagon V6
Sportwagon SS V8
Sportwagon Calais V6 and V8

Ute V6
Ute SS V8

Caprice V6 and V8

HSV Clubsport
HSV Senator
HSV GTS
HSV W427 (heres to hoping it has a different front!)
HSV Grange
HSV Maloo

and then possibly:

Torana i4 (130kw/174hp)
Torana V6 (170kw/228hp)
Torana TTV6 (260kw/350hp)

HSV Torana V8 (320kw/430hp) .... (something to take on the M3 of course!)

Holden Solstice
HSV Solstice

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Add on top of all those, future diesels models and such.

nothing but practical, and practical sports cars, that are easy/fun to drive.

[SierraGS]

I see Holden-Pontiac-Saturn-Opel-Vauxhall-Hummer as one “global brand” or “global sales channel” with all models having a European flair to them (except Hummer) and sold globally; Holden-Pontiac and Vauxhall would sell RWD models with only Holden-Vauxhall offering some FWD models as they do today. In the U.S. market Pontiac would be all RWD and Saturn FWD except for the Sky which would remain both a Roadster and RWD, the Solstice would become a 2-seat Hardtop Coupe (optional Panoramic roof like the Astra GTC) competing directly against the 350Z with V6 and V8 power. Pontiac-Saturn makes more sense than the current BPG stores and allows better coverage with fewer overlaps and the option to offer more models from existing platforms.

Moving Pontiac out of the BPG mix will allow GM to sell a Grand Sport Zeta model along with a Convertible to fill out a line topped by the LWB Zeta Electra – I would use the longer wheelbase Zeta for the Sedan to “make room” for a FWD Lucerne replacement and differentiate it from the G8. This way the G8 would compete against the Charger and the Electra the Chrysler 300. This way Buick-GMC could then put their entire focus on the Lexus line and update dealerships with an upscale feel.

Let’s at least give the G8 a chance to sell or not before making a final decision on what the GTO is based on, Pontiac could offer a GTO from the Concept 60 or as others suggest a Trans Am from the Camaro – either way Pontiac only needs one Zeta Coupe. An advantage of the TA is that GM would get 3 coupe versions that should hit sales goals and still have the option of putting the GTO on the smaller Alpha.

Holden-Pontiac-Vauxhall volume model would be the Alpha based 1-series size Firebird Coupe/Hatch shared with a 3-door Holden-Vauxhall model along with an I-4 and V6 powered Grand Am Sedan. Moving up to 3-series size with V6 and V8 power would be the GTO coupe, Grand Prix Sedan and Holden-Vauxhall Torana.

This results in Pontiac having 7 models Solstice Coupe, Firebird, Grand Am, GTO, Grand Prix, Trans Am and G8 but could be trimmed to 5 if the TA and Grand Am were not offered leaving the Solstice Coupe, Firebird, GTO, Grand Prix and G8, all exciting models well priced, posing no overlap with Chevrolet and allowing room above them for Buick/Cadillac versions.

Getting to your point about “partnering” with Buick, yes Holden can share a Grand Sport Zeta with Buick in both the U.S. and China – even India later since they automatically make RHD vehicles.

[YupYupYup]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

How about:

Buick v. Lexus
Cadillac v. BMW v. Merc

I always thought that is the way it was supposed to be, but now I have re-consider things...I almost feel there is room for overlap in regards to competiton (Buick going after Lexus, but also targeting other premium brands along with Cadillac). I think GM might be aiming to re-define the brand positioning...Instead of relying on BMW and Lexus to set the market positioning tone, I know GM wants to set it...And have others follow (more money in it for them). We also might see new, complex markeitng strategies that deal with brand positioning/ target market overlap in the future...As IU mention earlier, Buick might impede on both Lexus and Mercedes or BMW in the future with a sport line (remember, BMW and Mercedes are not standing still in their vehicle development)...GM must anticipate, not just follow. Too hard to summarize here though...