Is Pontiac Really The Best Partner For Holden?

[member12]

Pontiac should be to Holden what Saturn is to Opel. Pontiac and Nissan are sort of the same in my opinion. The G8 is going to be what the Maxima should be and the RWD G6 is going to be what the Altima should be.

Remember, unlike Saturn, Pontiac dealers are paired up with a really hot selling truck brand (GMC) and a more sedate, comfortable luxury nameplate (Buick). Pontiac should take the Holden commie chassis and utilize it (in a plant in NA shared with the more sedate Buick PA), and Holden should utilize a RWD G6 and Solstice for their market instead of that front drive mid sizer Holden and Pontiac currently sell. Want chrome and bling? Leave that to personalization. Pontiac is about performance. I think the G8 is more agressive and simply better looking than the GTO was.

Pontiac doesn't need a bunch of models to "grow" the brand. It needs 3 or 4 really good models that will sell and gain respect.


1. The G6 needs to go RWD either on a longer Kappa chassis or some other RWD chassis that can be a budget 3 series.

2. The Solstice is great as is, but could use more refinement and power in the future to perfect the design.

3. The G8 is for those who want a big RWD sedan. Like the Commie, it can be had with V6 and V8 power. G8 > Charger Park Ave > 300

4. The G8 coupe..call it a GT0 if you want...like the Holden version, except built in NA along with the G8 and Park Ave. Give it hood scoops and all the other tacky Pontiac add ons and halfway please the 10 people who think the Camaro is too bland. Maybe add an ST version for a 2 seat truckster.


That's it. Those are 3 impressive lines, with the g8 line having 3 different models. That should be all that Pontiac needs for now....and in the future maybe something similar to the Chevy Groove. Pontiac dealers shouldn't worry about not having a front drive car or SUV to sell, because they should be paired up with Buick and GMC which should not have trouble moving Sierras, Yukons, LaCrosses, and Enclaves.

5. Then Buick can have a real ES 300 competitor in the LaCrosse and LaCrosse hybrids. Optional AWD model.

6 An Acura CL type 2 door based on the LaCrosse (maybe) and Saab 9-3 convertible. Lets call it Rivera or Wildcat.

7 The Buick Park Ave, which should be a Lexus LS but affordable...like the Hyundai Genesis and maybe a Northstar V8 while CAFE will allow it. Hybrid model wouldn't be a bad idea either. This car should be more sedate and quiet than the G8...focus on luxury and comfort rather than performance and value.

8 The Enclave, which is doing great right now, but could use a hybrid model.

As this lineup becomes more popular, Buick can add in higher performance lines for the cars with more powerful engines and sporty handling (but retain the calm "American Jaguar" styling). Buick currently has 3 models, but only one is selling well. They should have 3 hot sellers before they consider adding a 4th or 5th and so on. Buick is about perfection, not about sales. They shouldn't stoop to those lower levels to gain sales from Acura (or Saturn)...but instead try to make better cars than Jaguar. All Buicks should come standard with a 300hp DI 3.6L from the Cadillac CTS, and all should be an "everything's included" type of car, with the only options being a Nav system or hybrid powertrain or maybe a performance version.





GMC is doing pretty well right now, but needs to perfect the mid size truck and SUV line that is growing stale. I count 6 models, but some have denali lines and we all know the trucks are hot sellers and have a million configurations.

That's 14 different model lines for one dealership....that's more than most, so no one should suggest that I am trying to kill Buick or Pontiac, which should be niche market vehicles. GM is big enough to be able to supply cars like those that I have suggested, and make P-B-G a diverse lineup that sells to a bunch of different people. There is no point in having a half dozen models if only one or two is selling well. I am sick and tired of everyone saying..."Buick should add this" and "Pontiac should add that"...they should be focused making their lineup more appealing while Chevrolet attacks Toyota and Ford head on. Right now, Buick and Pontiac are a joke and I know that my suggestion would work if carried out correctly. It might even result in increased sales numbers and traffic at the dealership (from actual people buying for personal use...not Avis).

Your welcome.

[b4z]

I just don't like the front grilles/fascia that Pontiac puts on the Holden designs.
As a whole the Holden grilles/front fascias are better.
I think if Pontiac could use the lower Holden grille with small Ponitac kidneys it would be better.
The G8 grille looks cheap, especially the lower opening.

[MonaroSS]

Originally Posted by tgagneguam

As usual, your visual work is impeccable, MonaroSS. Few can argue your talent there.

I do have concerns with your line of thinking, though. I think for GM's many brands to be successful-and keeping them all and having them show success is possible, if not likely or certainly easily done-they need to identify a clear identity, both in purpose and in look. GM seems to be working toward this. Pontiac seems to be trying to revive performance aspirations, which seem to be more in line with Holden's purpose in Australia. I could be wrong, and I'm aware that Holden cars cover more ground in Australia than Pontiac cars do in NA. Here in NA, Buick seems charged with fulfilling the mission of understated luxury, and I don't know that the performance characteristics of Holden meets the character of what a Buick should be. Put another way, I wonder if mildly rebadging the Coupe 60, as wonderful as it is, confuses the mission of Buick. Many on this site will argue that point, I'm sure. But I'm not really certain.

And Buick's global design may be a bit schizophrenic, with Chinese models more closely resembling Holdens, but I do think it's the NA look of the Enclave that should predominate over the Holden design theme of Chinese Buicks. Will it take more work and cost to properly align Australian Holdens to look like NA Buicks? Again, I don't know.

I also wonder about selecting a brand for NA based on present currency exchange rates and extrapolating that going forward. Again, for brands to be more successful, it's the identity and purpose that should be paramount, and slightly more pricey Pontiacs could be sold if they are true to the brand's intended purpose. I know exchange rates are important, but I don't know that it should be the deciding factor, per se.

Originally Posted by Buick61

NONE of those should be a Buick. Ever.

They're just not classy enough. The VEs are just not up to the level they need to be in order to be a Buick.

Cars in the same vein as the Enclave is what Buick needs to get done. Not some high-performance coupe and blandly styled sedans, even if they are RWD.

No no no, none of this is right. Buick's future is tied to what's happening in China, not Australia.

Hi guys,

My point was not that Buick NA become Holden, as some have said Pontiac should become Holden. My point is that Holden only needs relatively small numbers of exports to supplement it's production business case and that with the falling Greenback that those numbers are perhaps best sought with Buick China.

After all, Holden current plans include sending WM Statesman kits for assembly in China as the Buick Park Avenue.

So my primary argument is that Holden expand this relationship and add a top end Chinese Buick Coupe based upon a shared Monaro design, which is what Coupe60 is. Now without doubt the future of Buick in NA will be dictated by what happens in China and what designs Buick China choose in the future, as their sales will dominate Buick. So naturally if Holden makes some high end Coupes with Buick China they would also be available in niche amounts to supplement Buick NA's model line-up.

So I’m not trying to say what Buick NA should do, I'm suggesting that Holden team up with Buick China and that as a consequence Buick NA could have access to those vehicles. If Buick Dealers choose not to take a 600hp Twin Turbo Buick Grand National Coupe or an LS9 powered Buick GSX Coupe, which is sold in China (like they chose not to go with Park Avenue) then that is their business choice to make.

My concern is that Holden cannot rely upon Pontiac to take vehicles made in Australia, as the low sale price will mean slim profits. If the vehicle proves successful then Pontiac will likely decide to make the vehicle in the US, again given exchange rates. and leaving Holden holding the bag. But as China has such growth potential then a deal with Buick China can be more sure-footed and longer term. Holden can move up market there, which is where a high cost manufacturing country needs to go, and make good profits.

Holden is already flat out making VE and is at capacity. So every de-contented G8 that it sends to the US, where it is sold so cheap that there is little profit in it, is a waste of Holden production. The same car loaded with goodies and sold in China to the new millionaire set there can make good profit instead. And the Chinese will just get richer from here on out. It’s a growth market. But to do this those cars will have to be branded Buick’s and consequently there will be some that could be sent to the US and sold at the very top of Buick's range if Americans wanted them.

[SCCA1995]

Originally Posted by Andonis

Maybe they should revive oldsmobile and do the 442 and others based on this holden concept.

As much as I like that idea, we all know that won't happen. GM has let that body get cold. I still say GM gave up on Olds before it was given a chance to finish it's turnaround.

Back to the Coupe 60, I'd like either this car (Pontiac or Buick) or a Pontiac "Alpha" coupe with a V8. End of discussion.

[kenman923]

I personally think Buick would be a more suitable partner for Holden. It's probably time to lay Pontiac to rest.

[nsap]

I think they are going the right direction with the Pontiac/Holden relationship. We have to remember that even though Pontiac is in a sense Holden's global mate, Holden is still GM's main source for all RWD cars, for any brand. I think it is best to let Pontiac just rebadge the Holdens (ala G8) and let Buick have a unique RWD product. A product that, while developed by Holden, is all Buick. GM is giving Buick way more attention than Pontiac right now, based on the simple fact that Buick is the big-ticket brand for GM in China.

Buick is in the process of aligning their brand globally. Whatever Buick China gets, the US gets the exact same, and vice versa. Personally I think this will work out well for Buick. The design direction that Buick is going is simply amazing.

[eaton53]

1. The G6 needs to go RWD either on a longer Kappa chassis or some other RWD chassis that can be a budget 3 series.

As the "volume" Pontiac, it needs to be available with AWD for those in states with less than pristine weather.

2. The Solstice is great as is, but could use more refinement and power in the future to perfect the design.

IMO, the Solstice has plenty of power. They need to address the trunk space issue and it'd be nice on future Solstices if you can put down the top without leaving the vehicle or having a power top. Now that they're not in a huge rush to get it done on an extremely short timeline, they should have time to engineer these features in without losing the great looks of these cars.

I don't think they need to go the mechanical hardtop route. IMO that is completely at loggerheads with what these cars are supposed to be all about... lightness and simplicity. Add more of that instead.

I hear people griping about Kappa interiors, but I prefer both Kappa interiors to the Mazda. They're just much more stylish.... and this is coming from a Miata owner.

3. The G8 is for those who want a big RWD sedan. Like the Commie, it can be had with V6 and V8 power.

4. The G8 coupe..call it a GT0 if you want...like the Holden version, except built in NA along with the G8 and Park Ave. Give it hood scoops and all the other tacky Pontiac add ons and halfway please the 10 people who think the Camaro is too bland. Maybe add an ST version for a 2 seat truckster.

Actually, I think if anything is crying out to to go retro, it's the GTO. It'd be a monster sales wise, then when it's played out they can do a modern coupe within the G8 line. And bring the wagon!

[THE_SMURF]

Originally Posted by MonaroSS

Is Pontiac Really The Best Partner For Holden?

A MonaroSS Commentary
2 February 2008

The recent reveal of the Holden Coupe 60 at the Melbourne International Motor Show raises some interesting questions about the future of Holden manufacturing and design and where in the GM Universe they are best to make alliances.

This is especially important given the continuing decline of the Greenback and the inevitable rise of China as a world economic power and now one of GM’s best market places.

Personally, I'm not so sure Holden should be linked with Pontiac into the future. While Pontiac has traditionally been in the distant past a Performance Division, especially after they introduced the ‘Wide Track’ vehicles, that performance was always more working class in nature. It was affordable performance. If Holden is to be the manufacturing base for Pontiac vehicles then the affordable is going to be increasingly harder to achieve. This is a simple fact of the current global economy, and yet GMNA seems to have little interest in producing large RWD platforms in North America now due to negative impacts on CAFÉ.

So who would make a better partner for Holden? I have done some Buick versions of the Coupe60 as Buick's can sell for more money in America than any Pontiac (easier to make a profit even with the high A$) and certainly they can extract a premium in China.

I think Holden can do a deal with GM China for a top of the line Premium Coupe/Convertible with the Chinese Park Avenue Interior a ready fit, and which will sit well above the more economical FWD V6 Riviera Coupe. Furthermore this would allow Holden’s HSV (Buick Special Vehicles in China/US) to make super hot V8 Buick Gran Sport's, Grand National's and GSX's. And quite a few of those could be sold through US Buick dealerships.

Just a Premium Buick Coupe/Convertible in China is all that Holden would need for 25K – 30K sales or more a year out of the 1 million GM vehicles sold in China annually. This partnership would allow Holden to forget the US as anything more than a niche market that it can service like the UK with premium priced niche vehicles.

The US doesn't need a heap of Buick Coupes as they will have Camaro and the Cadillac Coupe, but a small number of Buick coupes priced high for profit (something GM needs to do more of) done as GS - LS3, GNX - TT3.6 and GSX - LS9 will not step on Camaro as they will be way too expensive and will not step on Cadillac as they will be too Large, Brutish and Muscular, even if comfortable and well equipped.

So what is the best option to secure Holden's export future. With the premium Buick brand or the performance focus of Pontiac?

MIMS: Monaro's Back! Holden Coupe 60 Unvealed!
Buick Park Avenue In China

The possibilities are endless.... Buick Coupe GS (top), performance GSX (middle) and converible (bottom)

BTW. Just for comparison I stripped the big wheels and go-fast kit off the Coupe60 Concept to see what the basic Holden Coupe would look like:

Take it all a step further. do we need both Pontiac and Buick? Drop two divisions, and create one very much like BMW. Build near luxury and performance cars. Name it a Holden or whatever and call it The NEW GM brand . People love things that are new. Many times this evokes the idea that it is trendy.

I can just see an ad where an M3 is stopped at a light and a Coupe 60, as show in the concept, ground effects and all (WE DO like that stuff on a performance cars GM managers) pulls up and there is stunned silence. As it speeds away the driver of the BMW asks (in subtitles) "What was THAT!"
Fade out to black
then " The Coupe 60 by Holden"
Maybe even Men At Work "...I come from a land down under." As tag.



One Brand, a new start.
Just a thought.


PS by the way your older Buick buyer will just as easily buy a Chevy if you equip it the same. so that argument is moot.

[MaxLegroom]

I'll jump on here as saying that Pontiac is probably the best partner for Holden in the U.S. right now. While the Statesman/Caprice/Chinese Park Avenue would work great here as a Buick, the Commodore makes sense as the G8, the Coupe 60 would make a good GTO or Grand Prix (that should never have been a four door, period). The other choice would be to make them Chevrolets, as they do for the Middle East, and that would involve lower prices, and even less profit than they would make as a Pontiac.

I'm with eaton53 on the Solstice, the next generation should add lightness as a priority, surely they can take some weight out, add some trunk space (enough for at least a duffle bag, which does, in fact, fit into a Miata with room to spare) without sacrificing style.

Making the next G6 a RWD car follows a path I'd suggested for Chrysler, to wit, that the next Sebring should be a RWD car to take on the 3 series. In that case, it would also differentiate it from Dodge.

[TwoRedPontiacs]

Maybe Pontiac sholdn't have it's identity tied to Holden. Maybe it's time to re-invent Pontiac again like she was back in the late Fifties. Just because Pontiacs were "wide-track" and had huge V-8s at one time doesn't mean they should always be that way. I still feel Pontiac should be GM's performance flagshjip, but attack it from a different perspective. Bring in lighter cars (note I said cars, no SUVs or CUVs), with smaller motors with high outputs, perhaps a series of small to medium RWD coupes, sedans, and wagons, that would slot in size from the current G5 to the G6, and leave the bigger vehicles to Buick and maybe even Chevy. The main point of owning and driving a Pontiac should be about the enjoyment and pleasure of driving. Right now can that be said about Pontiac as a whole?

[Ytriox]

For a Commodore to make a compelling Pontiac, it would need significant exterior changes. For a Commodore to make a compelling Buick, it would need significant interior changes.

[Lichtronamo]

They could make the VE sedan/coupe a Saturn and kill Pontiac all together. Holden has only the VE as the one unique product (pending decisions re: Alpha) that would translate into a US product. Put it on top of the Opels at Saturn (like Vauxhaul does in UK) and call it a day. Sustaining the entire Pontiac brand on the basis of the G8 and a potential Alpha makes no sense. Its easiest (ie cheapest) to get rid of Pontiac in that it's combined with Buick and GMC stores and all of its products can be done elsewhere. The Mervia sold as a Saturn would even make a nice replacement for the Vibe.

[TaHoE]

I disagree with this as a whole. The G8, even though it has a new fascia and slightly altered rear end, looks like a Pontiac. Buick is all about curves and classic American styling, which Holden cannot be adapted to. They would have to re-design every little element. Why not have Pontiac AND Buick base their cars off of these designs. Pontiac focusing on pure performance and Buick on more comfortable but super luxurious elements. I thought this was the plan to begin with?

[ponyok67]

I am actually starting to see the logic in blending the two divisions (Buick/Pontiac) into one (though, I don’t know what to call it). Cherry pick the best from Australia along with our best (Enclave, etc.) to make a knock-out new nameplate. That would leave GMC to do their trucks and crossovers and perhaps specialty trucks. The new nameplate would allow GM to relieve themselves of the weight of the old battle for identity and what to do with this rivalry or that history, etc. And somehow that seems to also add freedom to Saturn, Chevy and Cadillac as well. The current market and products becoming available seems to make this work naturally.

[cad1cts]

I really like the idea and the cars