Pontiac Needs to Close

[regfootball]

not this crap again. dear God. i'm so tired of this close GM brands -stuff-. geez.

[Ambalanche]

Originally Posted by jasaero

That could be an Alpha coupe though. My hope is that Alpha is a bit smaller than 3 series or IS.

If Pontiac is to survive, they HAVE to do something like this!

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Pontiac Needs to Close
... another commentary by mgescuro ...

Sorry.
There is nothing more the brand can do.

What is Pontiac these days? G8, G6, G5, Grand Prix, Torrent, Vibe, Solstice,
Of all those, the only 2 worth mentioning is the G8 and Solstice.

G6 has become the fleet queen.
Grand Prix is puzzlingly still alive.
Torrent is a straight rebadged.
G5 is a straight rebadge.
Wave/G4 (or G3) will be a straight rebadged.
The above 5 have no business being in a brand for so-called “performance” cars.

And there is nothing at Pontiac that can’t be sold as a Chevrolet or badged as an SS.

The G8 family can easily live its life as the Chevy Impala (sedan), Chevy Nomad (wagon), and Chevy El Camino (truck thingy).
And Chevy Solstice has a nice ring to it.
Chevy Vibe would also be a nice addition as well.

Pontiac has limited global presence as it is, though it does fairly well in Canada. There’s no reason why Chevy can’t take it over in the marketplace.

I see no credible reason for Pontiac to soldier on.

Pontiac can be saved, and is already setup to do just that.

The Solstice changed many peoples view of Pontiac and what is the Solstice?

It is a small RWD performance roadster powered by a 2.4L I-4 or optional 2.0L Turbo I-4 - not a V8 in sight and the Solstice Coupe will help sales.

The G8 is getting great reviews and sales should pickup once the inventory is better (only 5,300 in inventory as of 6/1/08).

The Vibe sells well and provides Pontiac with a high MPG option for now.

As for the G5 and G6 - one word ALPHA.

The G5 should be replaced by an Alpha based Firebird.

The G6 and Alpha based? (I prefer Grand Prix with Gran Prix LJ and Grand Prix SJ models in true Pontiac style.)

Now you would have (5) strong RWD car models.
Solstice (Roadster and Coupe)
Firebird (Coupe)
Grand Prix (Sedan)
GTO (Coupe)
G8 (Sedan and Wagon)

Filling out the line is the G8 ST and the following FWD models

Vibe (but moved to GAMMA focused toward the Mazda3)
Barina (Also on GAMMA with 2.0LTurbo and AWD GXP model shared with Holden - focused toward Scion tC).

These models will invigorate the Pontiac Brand, not overlap with Chevy or Buick and give GM some volume for the Alpha platform.

Just adding the Firebird and Grand Prix Alpha models would be enough to solidify Pontiac's position and the Alpha models can have 2.4L engines in base models like the Solstice although hopefully in DI versions with a bit more power/MPG.

[steve333]

Originally Posted by Fusion2.3H

Should GM Close Pontiac?
By: Fusion2.3h

Summary

• Close GMC
• Funnel development money into Pontiac
• Develop A-C class vehicles
• Increase leverage of turbocharging and lightweight materials

The majority of the brands at General Motors are losing sales, and in the wake of higher gas prices management has tough choices to make in deciding which brands will make the cut. Hummer will most likely go, but recently the focus has shifted to GMC and Pontiac. Some say that Pontiac isn’t a performance brand, that it doesn’t have enough RWD vehicles or V8 powered engines, its sales are fleet, and it’s sales are in the gutter.

In an era of $4 (and $5 in California) gasoline does it make sense to be designing vehicles with a traditional focus on V8 engines? Despite the common notion that performance vehicles, and especially ‘Merican performance vehicles need have a V8, they have fallen in market share while I4s have risen from 28.2% of the market in March 2004 to a whopping 45.6% in May 2008.

Another common misconception is that RWD is required for a performance brand. While many luxury marques such as BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes-Benz focus on RWD vehicles, comparable competitors to Pontiac such as Mazda, Subaru, and even VW incorporate Front-wheel drive and AWD systems. Despite the power going to the front or all wheels, they have been able to retain customers and build a brand image.

Another charge heaped onto Pontiac is that it’s sales are from fleets. General Motors has been the only Big 3 to see a percentage decrease, year over year in it’s overall sales percentage. During the last publication of fleet statistics Pontiac’s fleet percentages were on average with the industry, and if GM’s fleet reductions are correct they are below segment averages now.

What about it’s sales though, surely this is a nail in Pontiac’s coffin. Compared to GMC’s sales which are down 17.5% for the year and 39% last month, Pontiac’s are only down 10.7% for the year and down 20.9% last month. So why are Pontiac’s sales down then? Pontiac’s fleet queen (71% fleet in 2006), the Grand Prix lost 28,000 units for the year and 10,981 units last month, because of it’s decline in production. If we add in the Grand Prix’s near 100% fleet sales into the totals we come up with a 32% sales rise for the year. The only other nameplates that have declined this year are the G5 (down 515 units for the year) and the Solstice (down 2003 units for the year).

Despite rising gas prices and being out on the market for nearly 4 years the G6 has managed a 20.3% increase in sales volume for the year and outsells competitors such as the Sonata, Passat, Mazda6, Optima, Aura, Milan, Avenger, Sebring, and Galant. This is without increasing fleet sales and with only $1,000 incentives (compared to $1,500 on the Camry or $1,250 on the Altima). The new G8 has managed to handily sell 1,831 units last month and the new Vibe increased its sales volume by 2,000 units to 5,527 units. This is all without high incentives or increasing fleet sales.

GMC on the other hand has languished under poor sales despite seeing more funding from GM. Is this really a brand we should be keeping around? Despite incentives, every nameplate from GMC declined in sales last month, including the once-popular Acadia, and even though it is managing a 20% increase in yearly sales, it is likely to further decline in sales on monthly basis due to the gas crisis. Some of GM’s most shocking sales declines have occurred in this division such as the 58.8% drop in Savana sales, Envoy down 67.5%,, Sierra down 31%, and even the Canyon has fallen in sales despite the Tacoma’s rising.

Every vehicle in the GMC lineup is available at a Saturn, Buick, or Chevrolet dealership. GMC’s star, the Acadia will soon have a third competitor from Chevrolet this summer along with the Outlook and Enclave. The Envoy is being cut; the Yukon, Yukon XL, Sierra, and Canyon are all available at Chevrolet. In an era of shifting consumer preferences to small vehicles and movement towards a European market structure the sales support are no longer there for a truck division, even if they are uni-body platforms.

Instead, I recommend GMC be cut from the lineup, and instead of spending millions on developing face lifted Chevrolets, funnel their development money into the Pontiac’s vehicle program. Pontiac deserves to have vehicles that can Zoom-Zoom like Mazda’s or give them a reason to love their car like Subaru. The customers have spoken and they prefer Pontiac to GMC, lets listen to what they have to say and give them an ‘Merican car that has turbocharged I4’s and possibly even a sports car version of the Volt, now that’s a concept. Despite it’s limited resources Pontiac has managed to make exciting vehicles, and can go even further given the chance.


2009 Pontiac Vibe


2009 Pontiac Solstice Coupe

You make a compelling argument, but the 'G' names need to go if Pontiac survives the axe.

[steve333]

Originally Posted by paul8488

No it isn't. GM has been saying they're planning that, but nothing has changed. It's actually getting worse with the G3 / Aveo-twin coming. There are still ooddles of stand-alone Pontiac dealerships (or at least ones that aren't paried only with GMC and Buick) selling a whole vast range of cars with no particular market strategy / vision.

Convert these Pontiac Dealers to Opel (Saturn).

[dav305z]

It is very flawed reasoning to say the Pontiac brand should die based on the cars they are building today. Using that logic, GM should have killed off Cadillac, Saturn, and even Chevrolet five years ago instead of investing in them.

The real question should be what this brand's potential is, and whether that potential is worth the investment. I honestly do not know the answer to this question. Part of it lies in exactly how dire GM's financial situation is right now, and if they even have the cash to keep the lights on at Pontiac, let alone give it the new product it needs.

However, I will say this: we are entering the post-SUV era in the American auto market, and Pontiac is a car brand. In other words, its potential is exponentially higher than that of GMC or Hummer. GMC is a very low cost brand compared to Pontiac, given that it needs no unique product, but if it's not selling than there's simply no reason for it to exist.

If GM has the money and the wherewithal to give Pontiac some attractive mid-size and small cars, the brand will be very well positioned to capture the efficient performance market.

[PontiacBixler]

Sorry. No.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by dav305z

It is very flawed reasoning to say the Pontiac brand should die based on the cars they are building today. Using that logic, GM should have killed off Cadillac, Saturn, and even Chevrolet five years ago instead of investing in them.

The real question should be what this brand's potential is, and whether that potential is worth the investment. I honestly do not know the answer to this question. Part of it lies in exactly how dire GM's financial situation is right now, and if they even have the cash to keep the lights on at Pontiac, let alone give it the new product it needs.

However, I will say this: we are entering the post-SUV era in the American auto market, and Pontiac is a car brand. In other words, its potential is exponentially higher than that of GMC or Hummer. GMC is a very low cost brand compared to Pontiac, given that it needs no unique product, but if it's not selling than there's simply no reason for it to exist.

If GM has the money and the wherewithal to give Pontiac some attractive mid-size and small cars, the brand will be very well positioned to capture the efficient performance market.

Kinda stange GM is not mentioning Saturn, a brand whose cars were outsold by both Buick and Pontiac in May

Pontiac 26,340
Buick 8,006
Saturn 7,247

Wonder which one should go?

BTW Scion sold 14,858 (2 to 1 over Saturn)

Opels can be made into Buick models and Saturn dropped or moved to Chevrolet dealers as a "GEO" like brand, taking Saturn back to it's roots as a small car maker.

Pontiac can then build upon its sales which by the way were higher than Acura, Chrysler, Mazda, Audi, VW, Subaru and nearly matched Dodge (29,815).

[skylark68]

Anyone that believes Pontiac has no future need look no further than the amount of G8s I've already seen on the road (plenty for a new model with little physical advertising. If you build a superior product and fill a niche (low priced performance sedan) why kill it (the division)?

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

The only reason to keep Saturn alive is the fact that it has the ability to attract and win over an entire generation of buyers that GM has managed to alienate over the past 20-30 years.

Over that period of time, more and more people have become more accustomed to tighter driving cars, more aggressive designs, technology, etc. In effect, European designs.

There will always be a certain proportion of the US that will always buy a "true" American car, American nameplate, American design. But there is now a growing number of people who don't want that, and want a more sophisticated look, design, and driving experience.

And that's where Saturn comes in.

Saturn needs to expand its dealership base. GM needs to market heavily on the coasts, which has become synonymous to a beachhead for imports the past 20-30 years. Saturn needs to be pure European. And it needs to be distanced from Chevrolet. It needs to be the anti-Chevrolet. Complete with famous Saturn customer service.

That in and of itself is Saturn's advantage in this market.

It is GM's fault for not recognizing it!!

GM can make Opel car models from the Astra up Buicks and the Corsa made into a Chevrolet and move Saturn to Chevy dealers, dropping the Astra, Aura and Outlook - keeping the Sky and Vue.

THEN introduce the "new": Saturn Matiz (Metro?), Agila, Meriva, Zafira and Montana pickup.

The new Saturn lineup
Saturn Matiz (Metro?)
Saturn Agila
Saturn Meriva
Saturn Zafira
Saturn Montana (pickup)
Saturn Sky
Saturn VUE

These are all high MPG vehicles with no existing GM competitors with styling that fits with current Saturn models and takes Saturn back to its roots. This move gives GM a "Scion" brand within Chevy dealers like Toyota and allows GM to drop the Astra/Aura that compete against the Cobalt/Malibu.

GM can then consolidate some Chevy and Saturn dealers avoiding lawsuit costs of dropping Saturn.

Chevy would start with the Corsa (as it is sold in Latin America).

Buick would start with the Skylark (As the Excelle is in China).

Pontiac would start with the Barina and 2 Door Coupe verison of the Corsa.

GMC would start with the Terrain.

No brands are dropped, GM introduces new models while avoiding overlaps and givies GM a "new" entry brand in Saturn (this plays into the recent question of whether GM should restart the GEO brand)

[Tony's BlkGTP]

I haven't read all the posts, but I can say this, if GM does kill off Pontiac, I will seriously consider putting my loyality in another car company!! While I do like Saturn and wish to get into a Cadillac, Pontiac is the division I prefer to actually have my in garage. I currently have a 2000 Grand Prix GTP coupe and I still love it with nearly 175,000 mi on the clock. I'm hoping and praying that the G8 will expand to a 2 door version because I really don't like 4 doors. Some have said that Pontiac can be asorbed into Chevrolet and that may be true, but this is one GM fan who really doesn't care anything about Chevrolet, for the exception of the Corvette. To me, Chevy represents your basic transportation module to get from A to B. I do not have the same passion for Chevy that I do for Pontiac, period! I am dead against this idea of closing Pontiac. They should really keep focused on revamping the division to become a performance niche division of GM. Only 3 or 4 at the most cars built to perform like BMWs, but without the inflated ego and price. This certainly can be done with the help of Holden.

[dav305z]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

Kinda stange GM is not mentioning Saturn, a brand whose cars were outsold by both Buick and Pontiac in May

Pontiac 26,340
Buick 8,006
Saturn 7,247

Wonder which one should go?

BTW Scion sold 14,858 (2 to 1 over Saturn)

Opels can be made into Buick models and Saturn dropped or moved to Chevrolet dealers as a "GEO" like brand, taking Saturn back to it's roots as a small car maker.

Pontiac can then build upon its sales which by the way were higher than Acura, Chrysler, Mazda, Audi, VW, Subaru and nearly matched Dodge (29,815).

I've argued Saturn should go for a while, but now it's water under the bridge. GM already made the investment in Saturn, and they won't/can't abandon it.

At this point we're beyond the point of deciding which brands GM should invest in - they don't have the money to do any mroe than they are now. I think the best they can hope for is to keep the lights on for those brands that have a reasonable chance of succeeding in this new market.

GMC and Hummer clearly do not fit this bill. While both those brands have better product than Pontiac does right now, they don't have a chance in hell of succeeding in this car based marketplace, regardless of how good their stuff is. It's like selling top quality pork in Jerusalem.

[LesabreLtd]

Too many bean counters and non auto guys running GM have ruined the company. They went after the SUV when profits were huge and they let their car lines lag... while the japanese kept improving their cars, restyling them in quick short cycles. Case in point... Cadillac Eldorado... they sold the same car for almost a decade, then blamed the market wasn't there anymore. It was there... just who wants to pay top dollar for a 10 year old design! GM again got Pontiac to get rid of their trademark series, (Bonneville, Grand Am, Sunfire,) and now are G with a number attached. They did this in the 80's with the A6000 and the J2000... like Pontiac was an Audi. It failed then.... and this G thing will fail also.

Get some fresh, new innovative styling cues and stop putting the same grill on all the cars. And do it to all the other car divisions. Cadillac is a prime example... it's a hot car... GM needs a modern day Harley Earl or Bill Mitchell and get their remaining divisions their own unique looks.

[BigAls87Z28]

While I agree with the majority of what you said, to s-can the 2nd best selling unit in GM because its cars dont fit an image is kinda sad.

[TJ95GAGT]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

Pontiac can be saved, and is already setup to do just that.

The Solstice changed many peoples view of Pontiac and what is the Solstice?

It is a small RWD performance roadster powered by a 2.4L I-4 or optional 2.0L Turbo I-4 - not a V8 in sight and the Solstice Coupe will help sales.

The G8 is getting great reviews and sales should pickup once the inventory is better (only 5,300 in inventory as of 6/1/08).

The Vibe sells well and provides Pontiac with a high MPG option for now.

As for the G5 and G6 - one word ALPHA.

The G5 should be replaced by an Alpha based Firebird.

The G6 and Alpha based? (I prefer Grand Prix with Gran Prix LJ and Grand Prix SJ models in true Pontiac style.)

Now you would have (5) strong RWD car models.
Solstice (Roadster and Coupe)
Firebird (Coupe)
Grand Prix (Sedan)
GTO (Coupe)
G8 (Sedan and Wagon)

Filling out the line is the G8 ST and the following FWD models

Vibe (but moved to GAMMA focused toward the Mazda3)
Barina (Also on GAMMA with 2.0LTurbo and AWD GXP model shared with Holden - focused toward Scion tC).

These models will invigorate the Pontiac Brand, not overlap with Chevy or Buick and give GM some volume for the Alpha platform.

Just adding the Firebird and Grand Prix Alpha models would be enough to solidify Pontiac's position and the Alpha models can have 2.4L engines in base models like the Solstice although hopefully in DI versions with a bit more power/MPG.

THAT is what should happen. Throw the BAS+ system into all the base models and that would further help the MPG issue.