Pontiac Needs to Close

[Bravada]

Originally Posted by gopedxr7

here is the thing. why kill it, just leave 2-3 models. Pontiac, GMC, Buick dealers are combined. make the showroom like this.

GMC: Envoy, Siera, Yukon,

Pontiac: G6, G8, Solctice

Buick: Lucerne, Enclave, LaCrosse

there and nothing conflicts with each other. or other brands.

Alan

Now that LaX becomes a Chinafied Insignia, the G6 will be fighting three Epsilon brethren. I'd say no to G6, but yes to a compact for BPG dealers, this time something distinctive and able to turn heads around. Think Mazda3. A crossover a la Vibe would also make sense. Actually, Pontiac makes more sense than people realize.

PS. Still, the G6 is selling strong, for whatever strange reason.

[Stewie007]

I simply don't see how a division which is finally getting some real vital signs needs to go anywhere. The Solstice is on the top of its market in sales, the G8 is being scooped up already pretty quickly, and undoubtedly will be followed by another RWD G6... GM will not be killing Pontiac... They've made too many recent additions, and seem to have some commitments to continue. If anything merges with Chevy, it needs to be Saturn.

GMC is ALL trucks, mammoth trucks... Time to go.

[Firebird00]

Originally Posted by Fusion2.3H

Should GM Close Pontiac?
By: Fusion2.3h

Summary

• Close GMC
• Funnel development money into Pontiac
• Develop A-C class vehicles
• Increase leverage of turbocharging and lightweight materials

The majority of the brands at General Motors are losing sales, and in the wake of higher gas prices management has tough choices to make in deciding which brands will make the cut. Hummer will most likely go, but recently the focus has shifted to GMC and Pontiac. Some say that Pontiac isn’t a performance brand, that it doesn’t have enough RWD vehicles or V8 powered engines, its sales are fleet, and it’s sales are in the gutter.

In an era of $4 (and $5 in California) gasoline does it make sense to be designing vehicles with a traditional focus on V8 engines? Despite the common notion that performance vehicles, and especially ‘Merican performance vehicles need have a V8, they have fallen in market share while I4s have risen from 28.2% of the market in March 2004 to a whopping 45.6% in May 2008.

Another common misconception is that RWD is required for a performance brand. While many luxury marques such as BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes-Benz focus on RWD vehicles, comparable competitors to Pontiac such as Mazda, Subaru, and even VW incorporate Front-wheel drive and AWD systems. Despite the power going to the front or all wheels, they have been able to retain customers and build a brand image.

Another charge heaped onto Pontiac is that it’s sales are from fleets. General Motors has been the only Big 3 to see a percentage decrease, year over year in it’s overall sales percentage. During the last publication of fleet statistics Pontiac’s fleet percentages were on average with the industry, and if GM’s fleet reductions are correct they are below segment averages now.

What about it’s sales though, surely this is a nail in Pontiac’s coffin. Compared to GMC’s sales which are down 17.5% for the year and 39% last month, Pontiac’s are only down 10.7% for the year and down 20.9% last month. So why are Pontiac’s sales down then? Pontiac’s fleet queen (71% fleet in 2006), the Grand Prix lost 28,000 units for the year and 10,981 units last month, because of it’s decline in production. If we add in the Grand Prix’s near 100% fleet sales into the totals we come up with a 32% sales rise for the year. The only other nameplates that have declined this year are the G5 (down 515 units for the year) and the Solstice (down 2003 units for the year).

Despite rising gas prices and being out on the market for nearly 4 years the G6 has managed a 20.3% increase in sales volume for the year and outsells competitors such as the Sonata, Passat, Mazda6, Optima, Aura, Milan, Avenger, Sebring, and Galant. This is without increasing fleet sales and with only $1,000 incentives (compared to $1,500 on the Camry or $1,250 on the Altima). The new G8 has managed to handily sell 1,831 units last month and the new Vibe increased its sales volume by 2,000 units to 5,527 units. This is all without high incentives or increasing fleet sales.

GMC on the other hand has languished under poor sales despite seeing more funding from GM. Is this really a brand we should be keeping around? Despite incentives, every nameplate from GMC declined in sales last month, including the once-popular Acadia, and even though it is managing a 20% increase in yearly sales, it is likely to further decline in sales on monthly basis due to the gas crisis. Some of GM’s most shocking sales declines have occurred in this division such as the 58.8% drop in Savana sales, Envoy down 67.5%,, Sierra down 31%, and even the Canyon has fallen in sales despite the Tacoma’s rising.

Every vehicle in the GMC lineup is available at a Saturn, Buick, or Chevrolet dealership. GMC’s star, the Acadia will soon have a third competitor from Chevrolet this summer along with the Outlook and Enclave. The Envoy is being cut; the Yukon, Yukon XL, Sierra, and Canyon are all available at Chevrolet. In an era of shifting consumer preferences to small vehicles and movement towards a European market structure the sales support are no longer there for a truck division, even if they are uni-body platforms.

Instead, I recommend GMC be cut from the lineup, and instead of spending millions on developing face lifted Chevrolets, funnel their development money into the Pontiac’s vehicle program. Pontiac deserves to have vehicles that can Zoom-Zoom like Mazda’s or give them a reason to love their car like Subaru. The customers have spoken and they prefer Pontiac to GMC, lets listen to what they have to say and give them an ‘Merican car that has turbocharged I4’s and possibly even a sports car version of the Volt, now that’s a concept. Despite it’s limited resources Pontiac has managed to make exciting vehicles, and can go even further given the chance.


2009 Pontiac Vibe


2009 Pontiac Solstice Coupe

Agreed 100%. Pontiac should be a mix of RWD/AWD/FWD. It should have everything from V8s, high reving V6s to I4s as well as Turbo options across the board. I would aim Pontiac directly at Nissan, Mazda, and the like. Kill the G names too. I also support the idea of a Volt sports car a lot aswell. Who says "green" cars have be lame. All of this fits into my GM: Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac scheme perfectly. Having these cars will also up the GM CAFE scores. Even in Pontiacs weakened state, it is still very valueable in multiple ways.

[HotCarNut]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

G6 has become the fleet queen.
Grand Prix is puzzlingly still alive.
Torrent is a straight rebadged.
G5 is a straight rebadge.
Wave/G4 (or G3) will be a straight rebadged.

G6: ok, I see your point, but GM should be offering a re-design soon
Grand Prix: It dies shortly (thank God)
Torrent: It dies too by 2010
G5: A mistake that never should have happened
G3: A mistake that CAN be avoided (but won't thanks to Ricky)

Originally Posted by mgescuro

The G8 family can easily live its life as the Chevy Impala (sedan), Chevy Nomad (wagon), and Chevy El Camino (truck thingy).
And Chevy Solstice has a nice ring to it.
Chevy Vibe would also be a nice addition as well.

Agreed, Chevy could have absorbed the RWD offerings from Holden, but with CAFE standards and limited volume availability it doesn't make sense. Take a look at how many Impalas they sell a year versus the number of G8s they expect to sell annually. They sell more Impalas in a quarter than ALL variants of the G8 are expected to sell in a year.

The Vibe would overlap with the Cobalt and HHR.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by jasaero

BUT, if Holden does get Torana and Monaro that equation becomes a bit different. Still only three cars, but three PERFECT cars for pontiac. If Torana also got a small coupe version Pontiac would be set. G8(renamed Grand Prix again), GTO, G6(Renamed grand am and RWD), new smaller Firebird, and Solstice. Those five cars done and priced right would be extremely hard to keep on lots. You could also doo a smaller sedan and hot hatch that are FWD and AWD, but tip the scales at no more than 2500lbs and are very fast and fun with little more than 140-170hp range.

What you've outlined above just isn't going to happen - GM is broke and can't afford to develop any more products for a dead brand. The Solstice is no longer hard to keep on the lot (just the opposite),the G8 will likely prove to be DOA and GM will be lucky to sell the Camaro's its planning. If they do develop Alpha, share it only with Cadillac.

[Ed Arcuri]

Two items:
1)I remember the gas lines of the 70's and the misdirected efforts to solve the problems resulting therefrom. Panic is not a good substitute for planning.
2) I wonder, wouldn't Chrysler dealers love to have the Plymouth Neon just now? Someone decided that killing Plymouth made sense. Buyers are not flocking to Chrysler dealers for economy cars and, when they do, Chrysler will resurrect its K-car image. I can remember when a Chrysler was an impressive, upscale car.
Cheers,
Ed Arcuri

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by nikivee

Brands GM should shutdown or sell.

Hummer
Saab
Saturn
Buick (US only)

Pontiac alone nearly outsells these brands combined. So I don't think from a sales perspective Pontiac should go anywhere.

Pontiac outsells those brands, but mostly with fleet sales.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by Ed Arcuri

Two items:
1)I remember the gas lines of the 70's and the misdirected efforts to solve the problems resulting therefrom. Panic is not a good substitute for planning.
2) I wonder, wouldn't Chrysler dealers love to have the Plymouth Neon just now? Someone decided that killing Plymouth made sense. Buyers are not flocking to Chrysler dealers for economy cars and, when they do, Chrysler will resurrect its K-car image. I can remember when a Chrysler was an impressive, upscale car.
Cheers,
Ed Arcuri

But Chrysler's plan is to move all three brands into single showrooms, so there would be a Dodge Caliber on the same show floor as the Chrysler 300.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by Fusion2.3H

Should GM Close Pontiac?
By: Fusion2.3h

Summary

• Close GMC
• Funnel development money into Pontiac
• Develop A-C class vehicles
• Increase leverage of turbocharging and lightweight materials

The majority of the brands at General Motors are losing sales, and in the wake of higher gas prices management has tough choices to make in deciding which brands will make the cut. Hummer will most likely go, but recently the focus has shifted to GMC and Pontiac. Some say that Pontiac isn’t a performance brand, that it doesn’t have enough RWD vehicles or V8 powered engines, its sales are fleet, and it’s sales are in the gutter.

In an era of $4 (and $5 in California) gasoline does it make sense to be designing vehicles with a traditional focus on V8 engines? Despite the common notion that performance vehicles, and especially ‘Merican performance vehicles need have a V8, they have fallen in market share while I4s have risen from 28.2% of the market in March 2004 to a whopping 45.6% in May 2008.

Another common misconception is that RWD is required for a performance brand. While many luxury marques such as BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes-Benz focus on RWD vehicles, comparable competitors to Pontiac such as Mazda, Subaru, and even VW incorporate Front-wheel drive and AWD systems. Despite the power going to the front or all wheels, they have been able to retain customers and build a brand image.

Another charge heaped onto Pontiac is that it’s sales are from fleets. General Motors has been the only Big 3 to see a percentage decrease, year over year in it’s overall sales percentage. During the last publication of fleet statistics Pontiac’s fleet percentages were on average with the industry, and if GM’s fleet reductions are correct they are below segment averages now.

What about it’s sales though, surely this is a nail in Pontiac’s coffin. Compared to GMC’s sales which are down 17.5% for the year and 39% last month, Pontiac’s are only down 10.7% for the year and down 20.9% last month. So why are Pontiac’s sales down then? Pontiac’s fleet queen (71% fleet in 2006), the Grand Prix lost 28,000 units for the year and 10,981 units last month, because of it’s decline in production. If we add in the Grand Prix’s near 100% fleet sales into the totals we come up with a 32% sales rise for the year. The only other nameplates that have declined this year are the G5 (down 515 units for the year) and the Solstice (down 2003 units for the year).

Despite rising gas prices and being out on the market for nearly 4 years the G6 has managed a 20.3% increase in sales volume for the year and outsells competitors such as the Sonata, Passat, Mazda6, Optima, Aura, Milan, Avenger, Sebring, and Galant. This is without increasing fleet sales and with only $1,000 incentives (compared to $1,500 on the Camry or $1,250 on the Altima). The new G8 has managed to handily sell 1,831 units last month and the new Vibe increased its sales volume by 2,000 units to 5,527 units. This is all without high incentives or increasing fleet sales.

GMC on the other hand has languished under poor sales despite seeing more funding from GM. Is this really a brand we should be keeping around? Despite incentives, every nameplate from GMC declined in sales last month, including the once-popular Acadia, and even though it is managing a 20% increase in yearly sales, it is likely to further decline in sales on monthly basis due to the gas crisis. Some of GM’s most shocking sales declines have occurred in this division such as the 58.8% drop in Savana sales, Envoy down 67.5%,, Sierra down 31%, and even the Canyon has fallen in sales despite the Tacoma’s rising.

Every vehicle in the GMC lineup is available at a Saturn, Buick, or Chevrolet dealership. GMC’s star, the Acadia will soon have a third competitor from Chevrolet this summer along with the Outlook and Enclave. The Envoy is being cut; the Yukon, Yukon XL, Sierra, and Canyon are all available at Chevrolet. In an era of shifting consumer preferences to small vehicles and movement towards a European market structure the sales support are no longer there for a truck division, even if they are uni-body platforms.

Instead, I recommend GMC be cut from the lineup, and instead of spending millions on developing face lifted Chevrolets, funnel their development money into the Pontiac’s vehicle program. Pontiac deserves to have vehicles that can Zoom-Zoom like Mazda’s or give them a reason to love their car like Subaru. The customers have spoken and they prefer Pontiac to GMC, lets listen to what they have to say and give them an ‘Merican car that has turbocharged I4’s and possibly even a sports car version of the Volt, now that’s a concept. Despite it’s limited resources Pontiac has managed to make exciting vehicles, and can go even further given the chance.

This is all about money - or GM's lack thereof. With Opel already pegged to be sold in NA as Saturn and various Daewoos/Delta IIs to be Chevy's - there is no unique product left for Pontiac. Unless a product exists somewhere in the world as a mainstream, volume offering, GM can't afford it - there is no development money to put into Pontiac. Take away Pontiac's fleet sales and the rebadged Toyota and its obvious (to all but a handful of GM loyalists) that the brand is already dead.

[Bravada]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

But Chrysler's plan is to move all three brands into single showrooms, so there would be a Dodge Caliber on the same show floor as the Chrysler 300.

Somehow, it doesn't set America afire like the Neon did. The Focus is the new neon, even at 238709 years old (Joan Rivers sits with gritted teeth after losing the most-facelifted Guiness Record), and the Caliber is a dud.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

What you've outlined above just isn't going to happen - GM is broke and can't afford to develop any more products for a dead brand. The Solstice is no longer hard to keep on the lot (just the opposite),the G8 will likely prove to be DOA and GM will be lucky to sell the Camaro's its planning. If they do develop Alpha, share it only with Cadillac.

They need a volume Alpha to take cost out of the chassis and such so Cadillac can make more money on it. Caddy will get unique suspension and steering bits, but they need pontiac to give volume to any common parts along with Holden and maybe Opel. If the G6, G6 coupe, and G6 hardtop vert were replaced with alpha replacements that rivalled a 3 series or even 1 series dynamically, you can't tell me they wouldn't sell like hot cakes in the 23-30k range?? Specially if the styling was good and such. Not only would they sell well they would only sell well as pontiacs as they wouldn't be understood if they were sold along side similar looking Chevy's or saturns that were fwd.

[TJ95GAGT]

So if GM closes BPG, what does GM do to recoup those sales. Rebadges and fleet or not they are sales.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by Ambalanche

I agree with you as far as not wanting to kill the division and rebuild it with proper product, the problem is that GM will not do it!! How long has Pontiac languished? The only decent home-grown product it has is the Solstice and that really wasn't executed the way it should have been. The G8 is a very good car finally but just in time for $4.00 plus gas. I don't see anything else on the horizon. Wave/G4? Vibe? G5? ultra invisible G6 update? (new front/rear facias) This is not a performance brand as it stands but chevy's for people that don't want to drive a Chevy!

Alpha, Alpha, Alpha, and MORE Alpha for Pontiac. It would be mostly fixed. So what if we have to wait until 2013-2015 with lots of G5 and G3 crap in between. It would be worth the wait if all that crap helped keep them going until they could get an Alpha G6 and maybe a zippy G3 or G5 based on the global platforms everything moves that direction. They could even throw them all in some sorta racing once money started to come back in with the new products.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by TJ95GAGT

So if GM closes BPG, what does GM do to recoup those sales. Rebadges and fleet or not they are sales.

They don't. Many on these boards are convinced GM will never be profitable again as the leading manufacturer in this country. They want them to sell only Caddy's and Chevy's and fight for 3rd or 4th position behind Toyota, Honda and Ford or others on the US market. Many of us here understand GM could return to greatness and own 40%+ of the market again, but understand that in todays yearly increases in auto industry fragmentation that only a multi brand company can ever have that sorta market share ever again. GM is the only company with any chance of getting to such a point. Look how well it's worked for Toyota to pull brands out their butt. Lexus has done OK with 20 years of hardwork, but I am not seeing Scion ever be the mass market brand Buick or Pontiac have been.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by Ambalanche

This is the type of car Pontiac needs. They could even build it off the Kappa platform. And no, the Solstice coupe isn't the same.

http://www.burlappcars.com/2008/06/s...coming-up.html

That could be an Alpha coupe though. My hope is that Alpha is a bit smaller than 3 series or IS.