Pontiac Needs to Close

[tamatt27]

Originally Posted by I-Love-Pontiac

There's no reason for Pontiac to go on as it is... but that doesn't mean it can't be a very valuable brand. If it was done well Pontiac has the potential to be hot with kids, which is something GM needs desperately. Also the concept of an inexpensive brand for performance cars has a lot of appeal.

Back in the 80s Pontiac was in the same situation as it is now. They overhauled the brand and completely turned themselves around within a few years.

Exactly. I hope GM learned from the Olds fiasco that killing brands is NOT the smartest move! Pontiac has been mis-managed into redundancy. I would certainly buy a G4 over a Aveo because I have brand loyalty to Pontiac because I remember that they brought me my beloved Trans Am.
The problem I see with Pontiac, and GM in general, is them trying to get more sales...only without having the proper cash flow to make the car fit into the brand's 'projected image'. The G4 could be a great car, but it won't be due to GM's money woes. They don't have the resources to make it sporty.
It seems damaging a brand like this is better than killing it. Sometimes you've got to go with the lesser of 2 evils.

[tamatt27]

Originally Posted by TriShield

They would sell better as Chevrolets without the needless and tacky styling changes GM makes to them for Pontiac or the bad image of the Pontiac brand on them.

Says who?
A Chevy version of the Monaro and Torana? Please... Talk about cannibalizing Camaro sales!
Instead of just placing blame with broad statements like 'It'll sell better as a Chevy because of Pontiac's tacky styling' why not CHANGE THE STYLING? Killing a brand instead of changing it is the most ignorant thing I've heard.
Pontiac would be perfect with G8 (Sedan and Coupe), 'Torana', and Solstice for now.
GM: Stop trying to get conquest sales from Chevy with the G5 and keep the brand focused!

[jckjds]

I have mixed feelings on killing brands. Obviously, killing Olds ended up being expensive and resulting in a lot of lost customers. However, GM does have TOO many brands. I think the best thing GM can do is (1) seriously focus the niche brands (i.e. everything but Chevy and Caddy) and (2) leverage its global vehicles better to reduce the number of vehicles that it is designing.

So, if GM could limit pontiac to three basic cars, then the brand would be extremely inexpensive to keep around. That is, as long as pontiac's lineup is as follows:

G8 (with sedan, coupe, and sport truck versions)
G6 (Alpha with coupe and sedan versions)
Solstice.

That's it. All of these cars are already designed for Holden, so the design is virtually free. GM may need to tool up a us factory to produce these, but that's a pretty inexprensive brand, plus it could export from here as long as exchange rates are favorable. The solstice is the only car that's not Holden designed, but it is a shared design with Saturn and Opel. Throw in a little advertising and Pontiac should be a big moneymaker, even in limited volume sales. When I went to buy a G* last month, dealers couldn't even get them on the lots. Out of three area Pontiac dealerships, there was only ONE G8 GT in the entire town. If every Pontiac vehicle were so successful, Pontiac would be just fine, even if it were selling only 200-300K units per year total because they would be profitable units.

Expand that theme to Buick, Saab, and Saturn, and all of a sudden "so many brands" doesn't seem like such a big deal.

The problem is that GM hasn't shown the discipline to actually limit the number of vehicles per brand. I wish I could say that cars like the G5 and G6 are just stop gaps until alpha arrives, but then GM makes the torrent, and my faith is seriously diminished. PONTIAC DOES NOT NEED A REBADGED SUV FOR ANY REASON, stop gap or otherwise. Geez, GM. WTF.

[scotted73]

Originally Posted by nikivee

Brands GM should shutdown or sell.

Hummer
Saab
Saturn
Buick (US only)

Pontiac alone nearly outsells these brands combined. So I don't think from a sales perspective Pontiac should go anywhere.

But how is Pontiac selling per dealer? In overall sales it may be higher, but the sales from each dealership are more important numbers. If a brand with 1/4 of the dealership network is selling over half of what Pontiac is, then is who is doing a better job? Who needs the expansion?

I would rather expand the 25 dealerships selling 2 cars per month than the 100 dealerships only selling 1 per month. Obviously the brand with more available dealers should be selling a lot more, but they are not.

[CadiEldo67]

Seriously, GM's #2 and #3 best sellers should close? Might as well throw Chevy in too. If Pontiac sells as good as it does with a simple rebadge, imagine what the cars could do with some real development dollars. Its simple really, Mazda is the brand to emulate, not BMW.
Small Car on Kappa II or SWB Alpha - Solstice
Mid Size Car on Alpha Grand Prix/Firebird
Full Size car on Zeta Bonneville/GTO

The Pontiac Solstice sedan would be great, I'd buy one. I would look at it as a Mini Cooper competitor. The Grand Prix would replace the G6 name, and would team up as the Firebird as the coupe model. This differentiates the Firebird from the Camaro, and helps Pontiac's CAFE scores, as the 'Bird would only have a 1.6 I-4 w/220hp, 2.0 DI I-4 w/280, and a 3.0 DI with 320hp. The Bonneville would
replace the G8 name, and would pay homage to the names Bonneville and GTO.

Buick could have a/an:
Invicta - on Epsilon II
LeSabre - on stretched Epsilon II
Rendezvous - on Theta- replaces Vue/Torrent/Terrain
Enclave - on Lambda, with continuous improvements

Saturn(if GMC was discontinued to the public, but still avaliable as a commercial truck brand, as stated in a previous post somewheres...) could tackle the vehicles that Pontiac/Buick don't support.

There would be no need for a Sky, an Outlook, an Aura, a GMC Terrain, Acadia, Sierra, etc...

Saturn would feature the:
Corsa - as the economy car of P-B-S, nothing like the lame Aveo
Astra - with base economy versions and Red Line editions
Aura - if the price point could be set between the Malibu and Invicta
Zafira - A smaller european based people mover, imported, or built on Delta II if feasible.

Chevy could have the:
Aveo
Cobalt
Corvette
Malibu
Impala
Colorado
Silverado
Avalanche
Equinox
HHR
Tahoe
Suburban
Traverse
Express

Cadillac should have at least:
ATS - 1 Series Sized
BTS - 3 Series Sized
CTS - 5 Series
DTS - 7 Series
(isn't it funny how that works)
XLR - True flagship model of Cadillac
As the success of a model grows, different body styles are added, to keep up the momentum.


If GM was to cut GMC to an all commercial lineup, (as said by mgescuro in the thread titled "GMC Should Die… And be Reborn"), GMC wouldn't be killed, but it would only be bought by contractors, people who actually need trucks. This cuts the lineup of these three brands to 11 models, down from 20 between four brands.

This would benefit GM especially if Saab/Hummer were sold, (5 cars between 2 lineups)

With 5 Brands and 30 models, down from 8 brands and nearly 50 models. The best part is, no brand is discontinued, and therefore, billions of dollars are saved. The question is, can GM do it, and can they do it in time?

[tholland]

Originally Posted by kenman923

I hate to say it, but instead of Pontiac being killed, I think Saturn needs to go. Their uniqueness is gone and they have just become another GM brand. You still can't haggle on their cars. I can honestly say that I bought my last Saturn.

I agree with this. With all the money spent on Saturn the past few years... GM is not getting anything in return in the form of sales or loyalty. That money would be better spent revitalizing Pontiac and GM with all new small and midsize RWD platforms.

[the_smurf2008]

Originally Posted by mbukukanyau

closing it makes no sense. GM needs every sale it can get. And no where has anyone said pontiac is unprofitable

I completely agree.
I actually believe the post to be a bit asinine. Pontiac is slowly starting to move forward. The turn around will take time, and an "Instant Gratification" impatience with the brand and the leadership of GM is counter productive.

[Ambalanche]

Originally Posted by skylark68

Pontiac almost died as a division back in the late '50s. Word came from up top that unless something big happened, Pontiac would go away. Then the '59 Bonneville came out and changed everything. Pontiac changed from being a stodgy old man's car to being THE car for young people (and young people at heart) throughout the U.S. This can happen again but short sighted people within GM and on these boards think killing a division is the only answer. Refocus the lineup to performance oriented (aka similar to Mazda) vehicles and have the G8 and a reborn GTO or Trans Am and the sales will pick up. Chevrolet has always been transportation for the masses with a few exciting vehicles thrown in. That's fine. Some people like being conformists and blending in with the crowds. Pontiac is for the person that doesn't want to blend in and GM needs to realize this. Dump the G5, Vibe, G6, and Torrent and start over using the G8 as a guide and foundation. If it means slow sales for a few years that's fine, but dumping an entire division with plenty of history and plenty of potential is pointless. It'll do nothing but cause GM to lose even more sales in the long run.

I agree with you as far as not wanting to kill the division and rebuild it with proper product, the problem is that GM will not do it!! How long has Pontiac languished? The only decent home-grown product it has is the Solstice and that really wasn't executed the way it should have been. The G8 is a very good car finally but just in time for $4.00 plus gas. I don't see anything else on the horizon. Wave/G4? Vibe? G5? ultra invisible G6 update? (new front/rear facias) This is not a performance brand as it stands but chevy's for people that don't want to drive a Chevy!

[Ambalanche]

This is the type of car Pontiac needs. They could even build it off the Kappa platform. And no, the Solstice coupe isn't the same.

http://www.burlappcars.com/2008/06/s...coming-up.html

[Silverado14]

I love the long history of the divisions within Gm, but you are 100% correct. The time is right (now)!

[kenman923]

Originally Posted by SAngelo

I would close Pontiac but if it would create too much hardship for GM then I would first try the streamlining of vehicles with Pontiac and Buick. As the rwd performance division Pontiac should keep G8 and Solstice since they are both rwd, don't keep the G6, G5 etc since they are staying fwd. Pontiac should just add a 2 door G8 (Monaro from Austrailia) and call it the GTO. Pontiacs lineup for now would be :

G8
GTO
Solstice
Keep the Vibe I guess until contract with Toyota runs out.

Buick should just have the new Lacrosse/Regal(Epsilon II) and a Rwd replacement for the Lucerne (Park Avenue)

Lacrosse/Regal
Lucerne/Park Avenue (RWD replacement)
Enclave

When you combine both divisions you will have a full line-up or a distinct lineup of cars with not alot of overlap.

GMC will add the Torrent replacement and yes the Acadia is similar to the Enclave but one is more plush than the other.

I would do this for now. I know there are Cafe standards and all, but with cylinder deactivation and Direct Injection, GM can increase fuel economy even with gas prices. GM also needs to add some hybrid versions to some of these cars like Lacrosse, V6 -(two mode hybrid for G8) etc. What do you all think ?

I agree with you except for one point. GMC has to go. Let the Torrent replacement go to Buick.

[TaHoE]

Originally Posted by benroethig

I would guess the great (red and) white North might sort of be considered beyond.

The great white and red north would be considered part of North America as far as I know. And I would hardly base a brand's recognition on a few youtube videos.

[Stewie007]

I find it interesting that nobody mentions Saturn.... they sell less than Pontiac...

[gopedxr7]

here is the thing. why kill it, just leave 2-3 models. Pontiac, GMC, Buick dealers are combined. make the showroom like this.

GMC: Envoy, Siera, Yukon,

Pontiac: G6, G8, Solctice

Buick: Lucerne, Enclave, LaCrosse

there and nothing conflicts with each other. or other brands.

Alan

[Bravada]

The only US brand GM does right is Chevrolet

That's because Chevrolet can do with a mish-mash of different cars with a so-so average. Any other brand actually evokes some expectations and thus people are disappointed. You can't get much disappointment from an Impala, Cobalt or Aveo, because you are actually pleasantly surprised how much "car" you get for Chevy's lowball prices.

Give Pontiac the same lineup and you will hear boos all the way. Which GM did - both.

Thus the impression...

that GM management is not competent of running 8 NA brands

...while actually they are only capable of coming up with mediocre lineups, suitable for only the bottom-level brand. That said, accidentally they come up with a good product (Lambda, CTS), so rather than downsizing and downgrading GM to what the guys are (in)capable of, they need to reorganize and make sure the talent stays and the incompetent do not.