Pontiac Needs to Close

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

I'm not going to respond everyone who pointed out Scion.

I mean... what a complete JOKE that is.

Pontiac as Scion??? ARE YOU FRIGGIN KIDDING ME???

Instead of trying to build a brand that purposely tries to be younger, why not build cars that attract younger people?? That is the FALLACY of Scion!! It's still a friggin Toyota in youthful gift wrapping.

I'd rather Pontiac die than see it become an American Scion. SHEESH.

I am saying it should be what Scion SCHOULD be. Scion has their own issues and seems to be finding it has limited growth potential. But I think the accessories and stuff to make your car unique without going crazy on aftermarket shop work would be a good fit for pontiac on top of making fun young cars for pontiac. By no means would I want pontiacs to have a look or feel anything similar to Scion.

[BORG]

Pontiac, Saturn, GMC are all redundant brands to a new an improved Chevy brand. Chevy has the most potential for growth and if GM was serious about getting its act together, they would focus all their global resources on that one brand. Sadly, they are learning this oh so late and now they have blown their resources trying to prop up these other failed brands.

Buick is trying to be lexus, Caddy is trying to be German. They have got to figure that out or they are both going to struggle forever. Caddy is not doing well beyond the CTS...Buick is not doing well at all. Caddy and Buick need to target the same customers, meaning Caddy needs to diversify and Buick needs to stay in China.

Saab needs to be sold, preferably before Ford puts Volvo on the market.

Essentially, GM needs to be Chevy/Caddy in the US like Toyota/Lexus, Ford/Lincoln, Honda/Acura, Nissan/Infiniti, VW/Audi, etc.... For as long as I can remember, GM has always struggled to justify all of these brands with hemorrhaging market share

[Nasty_SS]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Pontiac Needs to Close
... another commentary by mgescuro ...

Sorry.
There is nothing more the brand can do.

What is Pontiac these days? G8, G6, G5, Grand Prix, Torrent, Vibe, Solstice,
Of all those, the only 2 worth mentioning is the G8 and Solstice.

G6 has become the fleet queen.
Grand Prix is puzzlingly still alive.
Torrent is a straight rebadged.
G5 is a straight rebadge.
Wave/G4 (or G3) will be a straight rebadged.
The above 5 have no business being in a brand for so-called “performance” cars.

And there is nothing at Pontiac that can’t be sold as a Chevrolet or badged as an SS.

The G8 family can easily live its life as the Chevy Impala (sedan), Chevy Nomad (wagon), and Chevy El Camino (truck thingy).
And Chevy Solstice has a nice ring to it.
Chevy Vibe would also be a nice addition as well.

Pontiac has limited global presence as it is, though it does fairly well in Canada. There’s no reason why Chevy can’t take it over in the marketplace.

I see no credible reason for Pontiac to soldier on.

Blood sucking Saab should go to ...they dont bring anything to the table but red ink..kill them off or sell them. Also GMC is another...get rid of ....and Saturn should be renamed Pontiac.....and go from there

[TriShield]

Why does GM need a "performance" brand that sells awful FWD cars that are badge engineered?

Chevrolet already has a rich performance history, heritage and is known for performance. Chevrolet is also a much stronger brand name to the public and isn't saddled with the questionable styling cues that turn so many people off on Pontiacs.

Mazda, Subaru and Mitsubishi also own affordable performance now. Every Mazda is built to be an affordable driver's car from the 3 to the CX to the Miata. Subaru offers the WRX and Mitsubishi offers the Evo. All of these brands have much more performance cred than Pontiac has had for a long time.

The Solstice is dead after it's production run is up. Holdens can be sold as Chevrolets in the United States just as they are sold in the rest of the world proudly wearing Chevrolet bowties with no other changes. Even Aussie Holden fans put bowties on them, they are Aussie Chevrolets. They are not Aussie BMWs or Euro-wannabe cars nor should they be wearing Pontiac's pig-nose grille.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

Holden's only unique product is the Commodore. Everything else is an Opel or Daewoo, which is why Pontiac = Holden is not the same as Saturn = Opel.

BUT, if Holden does get Torana and Monaro that equation becomes a bit different. Still only three cars, but three PERFECT cars for pontiac. If Torana also got a small coupe version Pontiac would be set. G8(renamed Grand Prix again), GTO, G6(Renamed grand am and RWD), new smaller Firebird, and Solstice. Those five cars done and priced right would be extremely hard to keep on lots. You could also doo a smaller sedan and hot hatch that are FWD and AWD, but tip the scales at no more than 2500lbs and are very fast and fun with little more than 140-170hp range.

[TriShield]

Originally Posted by BORG

Buick is trying to be lexus, Caddy is trying to be German. They have got to figure that out or they are both going to struggle forever. Caddy is not doing well beyond the CTS...Buick is not doing well at all.

I have always maintained that this mindset for GM's brands is very destructive.

GM has a century of building automobiles under it's belt and a hugely rich heritage. These brands can't be Lexus or BMW because we already have them and they do what they do better than anyone else. People buy those brands because they want what they offer and won't accept it from anyone else.

If GM had a clue they would have looked to the past to what made Buick, Cadillac and all their brands great and used it as a template to deliver what those brands stood for in their heydays and what only they can do. They would have not disregarded the styling cues, brand names and real focus of each brand.

They have reduced Buick to literally nothing but an expensive chrome laden crossover and Cadillac to a brand that can only sell a small car with an alphabet soup name.

When a company doesn't understand their own brands and heritage this is what it comes to.

[TriShield]

Originally Posted by jasaero

BUT, if Holden does get Torana and Monaro that equation becomes a bit different. Still only three cars, but three PERFECT cars for pontiac.

They would sell better as Chevrolets without the needless and tacky styling changes GM makes to them for Pontiac or the bad image of the Pontiac brand on them.

[GM-Joe]

You want to close all these dealerships, but who is going to pay for it?

[SAngelo]

I would close Pontiac but if it would create too much hardship for GM then I would first try the streamlining of vehicles with Pontiac and Buick. As the rwd performance division Pontiac should keep G8 and Solstice since they are both rwd, don't keep the G6, G5 etc since they are staying fwd. Pontiac should just add a 2 door G8 (Monaro from Austrailia) and call it the GTO. Pontiacs lineup for now would be :

G8
GTO
Solstice
Keep the Vibe I guess until contract with Toyota runs out.

Buick should just have the new Lacrosse/Regal(Epsilon II) and a Rwd replacement for the Lucerne (Park Avenue)

Lacrosse/Regal
Lucerne/Park Avenue (RWD replacement)
Enclave

When you combine both divisions you will have a full line-up or a distinct lineup of cars with not alot of overlap.

GMC will add the Torrent replacement and yes the Acadia is similar to the Enclave but one is more plush than the other.

I would do this for now. I know there are Cafe standards and all, but with cylinder deactivation and Direct Injection, GM can increase fuel economy even with gas prices. GM also needs to add some hybrid versions to some of these cars like Lacrosse, V6 -(two mode hybrid for G8) etc. What do you all think ?

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by TriShield

They would sell better as Chevrolets without the needless and tacky styling changes GM makes to them for Pontiac or the bad image of the Pontiac brand on them.

Can't agree with that. If GM did things right they would get rid of the silly BPG network and have a GM network with maybe only Caddy split out to allow it to exist in a proper location for the Caddy customers. I find GMC to be the most silly brand, but if trucks ever start selling well again, even GMC makes sense. But basically, given the same dealer network as Chevy, I think Pontiacs done right would sell better or equal to Chevy and would actually be sales above and beyond what Chevy alone could ever see with a certain size car.

Also I think you could sell WAY more RWD Pontiac cars similar in size as FWD Chevys than trying to sell two chevy near twins one FWd and one RWD. The whole point of Buick and Pontiac in the GM mold is so that if they ever do reach great success again, you can buy GM without buying the exact same car as you neighbor. GM will never see more than 25-30% market share again without a few brands of cars. No company will for that matter. But i think 2 or 3 brands of cars and a couple truck brands can hold 40-50% of the market if the brands balance each other well offering things Chevy can never offer as a mass market bread and butter brand.

[Ming]

Originally Posted by TriShield

Why does GM need a "performance" brand that sells awful FWD cars that are badge engineered?

Chevrolet already has a rich performance history, heritage and is known for performance.

That's a very good point. GM pours a lot of money into Chevrolet racing, and has established that image over the years. Pontiac is redundant as a performance brand.

[skylark68]

Pontiac almost died as a division back in the late '50s. Word came from up top that unless something big happened, Pontiac would go away. Then the '59 Bonneville came out and changed everything. Pontiac changed from being a stodgy old man's car to being THE car for young people (and young people at heart) throughout the U.S. This can happen again but short sighted people within GM and on these boards think killing a division is the only answer. Refocus the lineup to performance oriented (aka similar to Mazda) vehicles and have the G8 and a reborn GTO or Trans Am and the sales will pick up. Chevrolet has always been transportation for the masses with a few exciting vehicles thrown in. That's fine. Some people like being conformists and blending in with the crowds. Pontiac is for the person that doesn't want to blend in and GM needs to realize this. Dump the G5, Vibe, G6, and Torrent and start over using the G8 as a guide and foundation. If it means slow sales for a few years that's fine, but dumping an entire division with plenty of history and plenty of potential is pointless. It'll do nothing but cause GM to lose even more sales in the long run.

[Hurricane]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Pontiac Needs to Close
... another commentary by mgescuro ...

Sorry.
There is nothing more the brand can do.

What is Pontiac these days? G8, G6, G5, Grand Prix, Torrent, Vibe, Solstice,
Of all those, the only 2 worth mentioning is the G8 and Solstice.

G6 has become the fleet queen.
Grand Prix is puzzlingly still alive.
Torrent is a straight rebadged.
G5 is a straight rebadge.
Wave/G4 (or G3) will be a straight rebadged.
The above 5 have no business being in a brand for so-called “performance” cars.

And there is nothing at Pontiac that can’t be sold as a Chevrolet or badged as an SS.

The G8 family can easily live its life as the Chevy Impala (sedan), Chevy Nomad (wagon), and Chevy El Camino (truck thingy).
And Chevy Solstice has a nice ring to it.
Chevy Vibe would also be a nice addition as well.

Pontiac has limited global presence as it is, though it does fairly well in Canada. There’s no reason why Chevy can’t take it over in the marketplace.

I see no credible reason for Pontiac to soldier on.

I would agree with this. Not to mention, you could move the Buick/GMC dealership experience more upscale. Someone mentioned in the Buick thread that moving Buick up the scale might result in a Honda/Acura type relationship at the same dealership with Pontiac under the same roof. Eliminating Pontiac would mitigate that.

There is no Pontiac that couldn't be replaced with an equivalent Chevy product or brought over and sold by Chevy.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by GM-Joe

You want to close all these dealerships, but who is going to pay for it?

Another good point that everyone is ignoring. Shutting down brands may end up costing a lot more than keeping them alive. Dealerships are not going to be happy. Even GM's plan to incorporate Saturn into whatever's left of the PBG network could be disastrous, seeing as how the majority of Saturn retailers are stand-alone.

[nikivee]

Brands GM should shutdown or sell.

Hummer
Saab
Saturn
Buick (US only)

Pontiac alone nearly outsells these brands combined. So I don't think from a sales perspective Pontiac should go anywhere.