Pontiac Needs to Close

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

The only reason to keep Saturn alive is the fact that it has the ability to attract and win over an entire generation of buyers that GM has managed to alienate over the past 20-30 years.

Over that period of time, more and more people have become more accustomed to tighter driving cars, more aggressive designs, technology, etc. In effect, European designs.

There will always be a certain proportion of the US that will always buy a "true" American car, American nameplate, American design. But there is now a growing number of people who don't want that, and want a more sophisticated look, design, and driving experience.

And that's where Saturn comes in.

Saturn needs to expand its dealership base. GM needs to market heavily on the coasts, which has become synonymous to a beachhead for imports the past 20-30 years. Saturn needs to be pure European. And it needs to be distanced from Chevrolet. It needs to be the anti-Chevrolet. Complete with famous Saturn customer service.

That in and of itself is Saturn's advantage in this market.

It is GM's fault for not recognizing it!!



Because they don't have a satellite office in San Francisco.

Even with an expanded dealer network I am not totally convinced that Saturn would outsell Pontiac. Really Pontiac as a sporty division is just as well equiped to offer what you are asking for. I see your point of needing an anti-chevy for now, but I think the whole point of what GM is trying to do now is to win over these customers that refuse to drive chevy because they see it as low tech american made crap. The goal is to get them to understand chevy is NOT that and if they accomplish that Saturn as the restyled and tuned Chevys doing duty as Anti-Chevy's is pointless.

They do need a division in the long run like pontiac though that offers somthing like a chevy but with a more bad boy and sporting styling and tune.

Saturn is pointless though if GM can convince the coastal sorts GM cars are cool again. No need for a seperate Saturn/Anti-Chevy network then. Would just be a wasted dealer resource then and we all know how the extra dealer problem is hitting the bottom line now.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by jasaero

Even with an expanded dealer network I am not totally convinced that Saturn would outsell Pontiac. Really Pontiac as a sporty division is just as well equiped to offer what you are asking for. I see your point of needing an anti-chevy for now, but I think the whole point of what GM is trying to do now is to win over these customers that refuse to drive chevy because they see it as low tech american made crap. The goal is to get them to understand chevy is NOT that and if they accomplish that Saturn as the restyled and tuned Chevys doing duty as Anti-Chevy's is pointless.

They do need a division in the long run like pontiac though that offers somthing like a chevy but with a more bad boy and sporting styling and tune.

Saturn is pointless though if GM can convince the coastal sorts GM cars are cool again. No need for a seperate Saturn/Anti-Chevy network then. Would just be a wasted dealer resource then and we all know how the extra dealer problem is hitting the bottom line now.

Pontiac's thousands of dealers to Saturns hundreds of dealers says you're wrong.

Pontiac as a sporty division works fine. But we cannot trust GM to keep on that track. Pontiac has exactly 2 cars that fit that persona -- G8 and Solstice. The rest is trash. What is the use of a G5? Or a Pontiac Wave/G4(3)? Performance?

We're not talking long run here. In the long run, if GM doesn't make the decisions now, GM will be dead or completely divested.

There is NO point in Pontiac at this stage of the game.
I don't want to see Pontiac as a rebadge brand, losing its identity.

What you want are sales. GM wants sales. But the customer wants to be proud of a car they just bought. And the #1 complaint about GM is that they don't understand the customer. GM builds a mish mash of crap. And Pontiac's goal has been lost.

People want Pontiac to become Holden? Have you checked out the Holden lineup lately? A few Aussie cars with a few Opels. I don't want to see a Pontiac Captiva!! And a G8 family is not enough to support Pontiac.

Without Pontiac in the way, this can clear the path for Chevrolet to revamp its image. it can be a sophisticated American car. It doesn't have to cling to its trashy reputation and image.

Instead of GM whining about losing brands, GM can build us a better Chevy.

[I-Love-Pontiac]

There's no reason for Pontiac to go on as it is... but that doesn't mean it can't be a very valuable brand. If it was done well Pontiac has the potential to be hot with kids, which is something GM needs desperately. Also the concept of an inexpensive brand for performance cars has a lot of appeal.

Back in the 80s Pontiac was in the same situation as it is now. They overhauled the brand and completely turned themselves around within a few years.

[redimpss5]

You know, there are many reason's posted why, but some how, Canada don't see it!! They some how see that brand worthy of buying, so keep rolling! eh!

[vxl]

I would have thought that the last thing GM need do is close another division. Haven't they learned from Oldsmobile that it costs a lot of money to do this, never mind loss of customers. Surely GM hasn't sold all its subsidiaries simply to squander the proceeds? (American Axle springs to mind)A very valid point was mentioned in a previous thread stating how unviable the combined GMC/Pontiac/Buick network would become if one of the brands was removed (hasn't GM just reinforced this dealer approach recently?)

I now believe, in the next decade if GM remains independent, it will have been surpassed by Toyota, Renault/Nissan, VW and probably Ford. GM's fall from grace should be used as proof of the myth of the "great American businessman" - never has a company been so mismanaged.

[Fusion2.3H]

Should GM Close Pontiac?
By: Fusion2.3h

Summary

• Close GMC
• Funnel development money into Pontiac
• Develop A-C class vehicles
• Increase leverage of turbocharging and lightweight materials

The majority of the brands at General Motors are losing sales, and in the wake of higher gas prices management has tough choices to make in deciding which brands will make the cut. Hummer will most likely go, but recently the focus has shifted to GMC and Pontiac. Some say that Pontiac isn’t a performance brand, that it doesn’t have enough RWD vehicles or V8 powered engines, its sales are fleet, and it’s sales are in the gutter.

In an era of $4 (and $5 in California) gasoline does it make sense to be designing vehicles with a traditional focus on V8 engines? Despite the common notion that performance vehicles, and especially ‘Merican performance vehicles need have a V8, they have fallen in market share while I4s have risen from 28.2% of the market in March 2004 to a whopping 45.6% in May 2008.

Another common misconception is that RWD is required for a performance brand. While many luxury marques such as BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes-Benz focus on RWD vehicles, comparable competitors to Pontiac such as Mazda, Subaru, and even VW incorporate Front-wheel drive and AWD systems. Despite the power going to the front or all wheels, they have been able to retain customers and build a brand image.

Another charge heaped onto Pontiac is that it’s sales are from fleets. General Motors has been the only Big 3 to see a percentage decrease, year over year in it’s overall sales percentage. During the last publication of fleet statistics Pontiac’s fleet percentages were on average with the industry, and if GM’s fleet reductions are correct they are below segment averages now.

What about it’s sales though, surely this is a nail in Pontiac’s coffin. Compared to GMC’s sales which are down 17.5% for the year and 39% last month, Pontiac’s are only down 10.7% for the year and down 20.9% last month. So why are Pontiac’s sales down then? Pontiac’s fleet queen (71% fleet in 2006), the Grand Prix lost 28,000 units for the year and 10,981 units last month, because of it’s decline in production. If we add in the Grand Prix’s near 100% fleet sales into the totals we come up with a 32% sales rise for the year. The only other nameplates that have declined this year are the G5 (down 515 units for the year) and the Solstice (down 2003 units for the year).

Despite rising gas prices and being out on the market for nearly 4 years the G6 has managed a 20.3% increase in sales volume for the year and outsells competitors such as the Sonata, Passat, Mazda6, Optima, Aura, Milan, Avenger, Sebring, and Galant. This is without increasing fleet sales and with only $1,000 incentives (compared to $1,500 on the Camry or $1,250 on the Altima). The new G8 has managed to handily sell 1,831 units last month and the new Vibe increased its sales volume by 2,000 units to 5,527 units. This is all without high incentives or increasing fleet sales.

GMC on the other hand has languished under poor sales despite seeing more funding from GM. Is this really a brand we should be keeping around? Despite incentives, every nameplate from GMC declined in sales last month, including the once-popular Acadia, and even though it is managing a 20% increase in yearly sales, it is likely to further decline in sales on monthly basis due to the gas crisis. Some of GM’s most shocking sales declines have occurred in this division such as the 58.8% drop in Savana sales, Envoy down 67.5%,, Sierra down 31%, and even the Canyon has fallen in sales despite the Tacoma’s rising.

Every vehicle in the GMC lineup is available at a Saturn, Buick, or Chevrolet dealership. GMC’s star, the Acadia will soon have a third competitor from Chevrolet this summer along with the Outlook and Enclave. The Envoy is being cut; the Yukon, Yukon XL, Sierra, and Canyon are all available at Chevrolet. In an era of shifting consumer preferences to small vehicles and movement towards a European market structure the sales support are no longer there for a truck division, even if they are uni-body platforms.

Instead, I recommend GMC be cut from the lineup, and instead of spending millions on developing face lifted Chevrolets, funnel their development money into the Pontiac’s vehicle program. Pontiac deserves to have vehicles that can Zoom-Zoom like Mazda’s or give them a reason to love their car like Subaru. The customers have spoken and they prefer Pontiac to GMC, lets listen to what they have to say and give them an ‘Merican car that has turbocharged I4’s and possibly even a sports car version of the Volt, now that’s a concept. Despite it’s limited resources Pontiac has managed to make exciting vehicles, and can go even further given the chance.


2009 Pontiac Vibe


2009 Pontiac Solstice Coupe

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by vxl

I would have thought that the last thing GM need do is close another division. Haven't they learned from Oldsmobile that it costs a lot of money to do this, never mind loss of customers. Surely GM hasn't sold all its subsidiaries simply to squander the proceeds? (American Axle springs to mind)A very valid point was mentioned in a previous thread stating how unviable the combined GMC/Pontiac/Buick network would become if one of the brands was removed (hasn't GM just reinforced this dealer approach recently?)

I now believe, in the next decade if GM remains independent, it will have been surpassed by Toyota, Renault/Nissan, VW and probably Ford. GM's fall from grace should be used as proof of the myth of the "great American businessman" - never has a company been so mismanaged.

It costs a lot of money, yes, but it also costs a lot to keep a whole bunch of unproductive divisions too. There is a reason why the more productive companies have 2or 3 max brands. It's too hard to market cars for 7 brands, and it's even harder to keep cars for 7 brands all fresh. They've learned that from what they did with Saturn and Cadillac. They make one division great, but in the couple years that takes, everything else gets stale. Then they move on to the next brand, but the one they just did starts to fester before they finish the next one. It's like herding cows. If you get one in the fence and leave the gate open, it's going to be gone before the next one is in.

[Bravada]

Really, Marc, I hope you've had a bad day...

1. You can shove everything into Chevrolet, but there are still people who might not like your "all kinds of everything" brand. Look at Toyota - an entirely new generation grows up fed up with their omnipresence and middle-of-the-road blandness.

Miss Shebrah Lay might turn around and start building really good cars, but those would be the cars in the mold of Malibu - VERY sensible choices, but somehow not bought on a heartbeat, but on very good consideration. Think of it as of VW in Europe - only that Chevrolet has to downprice the market, and will have to do so for quite some time.

2. Even with the current lamey-o lineup, Pontiac has consistently posted more conversion sales, younger average customer age, more women and other "minority/segment" customer shares than GM corporate average in North America.

3. While Chevrolet has a global presence, it's a GM DAT presence. And it's not a bad thing, but you won't convince people they should shell out big bucks and pay premium for "specialty" vehicles from a brand that offers you Aveos. An Aveo SS? Please...

4. The VE is the best product GM had in many years/decades, and while it is blowing against the monumentally stupid CAFE in the US, it's got all it takes to make it on a global scene. And I don't think it fits in the Opel lineup - for Chevrolet, see above.

5. Pontiac has a lot of brand recognition in both North America and beyond - that's equity one cannot ignore.

6. In North America, the brand is already thinned, streamlined and prepared to work in combined showrooms -> little overhead.

7. GM will need to come up with much better, enjoyable small cars, which do not necessairly have the utilitarian Chevrolet/Toyota feel. I believe Pontiac is the perfect brand for this. Why not Saturn? Check out all the "why I won't buy a Saturn" threads.

Really, no GM brand should go - they should start by reorganizing the company and trimming actual fat and costs behind the front line. The actual Pontiac badge is not responsible for any of those - low-quality human resources and organisation are.

[Bravada]

It's too hard to market cars for 7 brands, and it's even harder to keep cars for 7 brands all fresh.

A brand does not have to have a lineup spanning from Mount Rushmore to the moons of Jupiter. 2-3 models suffice, 5 are a handful - and it's better for the consistency of the brand's image. Daimler just cut Smart to essentially one model and suddenly they're all good.

[jgill16]

let me set the record stright, gm need to keep pontiac and close buick at lease in the u s. we already have a luxury icon cadillac which sell good. buick does better in china and pontiac is moreyouthul& hipper then buick. when was the last time a teen turn 18 and said dad i want new car, oh buick no scion yes. younger people are lookin at scion or other cars then turning to buick and i have friends that are 22-28 which are inpressed with pontiac then a buick and these are friends of mine who love evo's nissan gt-r bmw's. there is no and i mean no interest in buick for this group. if toyota did for scion gm could do for pontiac and make cars hipp and smart and more youth will turn to pontiac. and btw my grandpa would'nt buy a buick and he's 73.kill buick in u s. let china have it and make pontiac what scion is today i know alot of people who bought that scion tc and the little boxy suv. toyota was able to beat gm at #1 cause of the divion scion. give enclave to chevy or gmc and give lacrosse and lucerne to chevy or saturn. and make pontiac a leader in performace and afordable hipper cool cars again and back it up with cool younger advertisment. it can happen if gm does it right.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Pontiac's thousands of dealers to Saturns hundreds of dealers says you're wrong.

Pontiac as a sporty division works fine. But we cannot trust GM to keep on that track. Pontiac has exactly 2 cars that fit that persona -- G8 and Solstice. The rest is trash. What is the use of a G5? Or a Pontiac Wave/G4(3)? Performance?

We're not talking long run here. In the long run, if GM doesn't make the decisions now, GM will be dead or completely divested.

There is NO point in Pontiac at this stage of the game.
I don't want to see Pontiac as a rebadge brand, losing its identity.

What you want are sales. GM wants sales. But the customer wants to be proud of a car they just bought. And the #1 complaint about GM is that they don't understand the customer. GM builds a mish mash of crap. And Pontiac's goal has been lost.

People want Pontiac to become Holden? Have you checked out the Holden lineup lately? A few Aussie cars with a few Opels. I don't want to see a Pontiac Captiva!! And a G8 family is not enough to support Pontiac.

Without Pontiac in the way, this can clear the path for Chevrolet to revamp its image. it can be a sophisticated American car. It doesn't have to cling to its trashy reputation and image.

Instead of GM whining about losing brands, GM can build us a better Chevy.

I just find Pontiac to be a more valuable brand than others. You answered nothing about how Saturn isn't pointless once GM's image in general is repared?? Saturn was a bad idea in the first place. It was the idea of one of the worse sets of management gm has ever had. They said, we can't fix the brands we do have so lets try a new one rather than building better cars to fix the brands that are currently here.

They now realize they need better products to fix GM's image and are bringing them out. To me that is a sign saturn has no point now.

But back on Pontiac, I think triming them down to just the G8, Solstice, and G6 would be fine. Maybe even keep the G5 if you promise to make it a unique car eventually. Basically Pontiac to me with 3 good sedans and 2 or three good coupes and roadster would make way more sense than keeping Saturn. Really if you replace the G6 with a EpII version with AWD only or better yet Alpha you are 90% of the way to fixing Pontiac. A new version of the G5 wouldn't hurt either. I am not a fan of having a G3 at all though unless it's more of a Mini Cooper type car rather than true econobox.

Saturn you are saying needs more dealers, but I am not buying that. In parts of the country I grew up, you can get saturns from other GM dealers if you really want them, but no one there is even asking for them, even though they know about them. They would rather have a Pontiac or Chevy. And Saturn is just extra dealers selling rebadged Chevy's anyhow now. The malibu is nicer all around than the Aura, the Vue could be handed straight over to Chevy to replace the Equinox and maybe even drop the Equinox name for the Vue name. The Astra is pointless so far even though a decent car. Outlook should have been the Traverse in the first place.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by jgill16

let me set the record stright, gm need to keep pontiac and close buick at lease in the u s. we already have a luxury icon cadillac which sell good. buick does better in china and pontiac is moreyouthul& hipper then buick. when was the last time a teen turn 18 and said dad i want new car, oh buick no scion yes. younger people are lookin at scion or other cars then turning to buick and i have friends that are 22-28 which are inpressed with pontiac then a buick and these are friends of mine who love evo's nissan gt-r bmw's. there is no and i mean no interest in buick for this group. if toyota did for scion gm could do for pontiac and make cars hipp and smart and more youth will turn to pontiac. and btw my grandpa would'nt buy a buick and he's 73.kill buick in u s. let china have it and make pontiac what scion is today i know alot of people who bought that scion tc and the little boxy suv. toyota was able to beat gm at #1 cause of the divion scion. give enclave to chevy or gmc and give lacrosse and lucerne to chevy or saturn. and make pontiac a leader in performace and afordable hipper cool cars again and back it up with cool younger advertisment. it can happen if gm does it right.

I was going to make the Scion point about Pontiac also. What Scion should be is what Pontiac should be. Scion is cool, but doesn't have anywhere for people who like it to go if they want MORE vehicle. Pontiac should be like Scion, but have a place for people to upgrade if they are into that kinda young hip brand, but want a bit bigger vehicle. I also would keep Pontiac more true to making hip cars instead of the various odd hip vehicles Scion has. But the accessorizing and customizing after sale aspect of Scion would work well with pontiac. I think the existing pontiac customers would ebrace those kinda options big time also.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Really, Marc, I hope you've had a bad day...

1. You can shove everything into Chevrolet, but there are still people who might not like your "all kinds of everything" brand. Look at Toyota - an entirely new generation grows up fed up with their omnipresence and middle-of-the-road blandness.

Miss Shebrah Lay might turn around and start building really good cars, but those would be the cars in the mold of Malibu - VERY sensible choices, but somehow not bought on a heartbeat, but on very good consideration. Think of it as of VW in Europe - only that Chevrolet has to downprice the market, and will have to do so for quite some time.

2. Even with the current lamey-o lineup, Pontiac has consistently posted more conversion sales, younger average customer age, more women and other "minority/segment" customer shares than GM corporate average in North America.

3. While Chevrolet has a global presence, it's a GM DAT presence. And it's not a bad thing, but you won't convince people they should shell out big bucks and pay premium for "specialty" vehicles from a brand that offers you Aveos. An Aveo SS? Please...

4. The VE is the best product GM had in many years/decades, and while it is blowing against the monumentally stupid CAFE in the US, it's got all it takes to make it on a global scene. And I don't think it fits in the Opel lineup - for Chevrolet, see above.

5. Pontiac has a lot of brand recognition in both North America and beyond - that's equity one cannot ignore.

6. In North America, the brand is already thinned, streamlined and prepared to work in combined showrooms -> little overhead.

7. GM will need to come up with much better, enjoyable small cars, which do not necessairly have the utilitarian Chevrolet/Toyota feel. I believe Pontiac is the perfect brand for this. Why not Saturn? Check out all the "why I won't buy a Saturn" threads.

Really, no GM brand should go - they should start by reorganizing the company and trimming actual fat and costs behind the front line. The actual Pontiac badge is not responsible for any of those - low-quality human resources and organisation are.

These are all good points. GM needs Pontiac solely to be a car that sells well Next to a Chevy for peeps that LIKE GM but not Chevy. Many won't like Chevy simply because everyone has it if they become successful again. Saturns won't work for those that like GM, but not Chevy. And Buick can offer the same sorta Chevy alternative as Pontiac, but be more for those wanting something more elegant and mature looking and such than more extreme and young pontiac. Saturn just doesn't work the same yin vs yang way like this with Chevy?? It's more to fool peeps who refuse to buy gm into buying one unknowingly.

[bigtime]

You could easily make the case to close all the brands down to 2: chevy and a luxury brand- cadillac. You read it all over the net how toyota, infiniti, honda, etc. are doing the 2 brand thing - except toyota who started scion for some dumb reason. Apparently everything detroit does is bad, and everything japan does is perfect - thus how its been for 30 years. This is getting old folks.

All pontiac needs is more cars like the solstice and G8. Cool cars that you actually want! They have the solstice targa coming, just add some more things like that. They need a smaller car, think mini cooper S. They just need unique, youth oriented cars. Cars that are fun, not boring like the G6. Woo, a FWD performance car that looks like a boring 4 door, yeah right. I hate to say it, but we want our cladding back! You stripped that off and left us with typical sedans and coupes. At least the grand am stood out! Not to mention you took away all the names we know - bonneville, grand am, etc. and gave us the G5, G6, the G8- enough with the freaking G's!!!

[mgescuro]

I'm not going to respond everyone who pointed out Scion.

I mean... what a complete JOKE that is.

Pontiac as Scion??? ARE YOU FRIGGIN KIDDING ME???

Instead of trying to build a brand that purposely tries to be younger, why not build cars that attract younger people?? That is the FALLACY of Scion!! It's still a friggin Toyota in youthful gift wrapping.

I'd rather Pontiac die than see it become an American Scion. SHEESH.