Pontiac Needs to Close

[LeSabre]

Actually, Chevrolet NEEDS to close.




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[Gerard]

'Bout time the staff came around the killing Pontiac. Now of everyone can move to dropping Buick and GMC from the North American market, we'll be in a better place. The G8 and the Solstice were good efforts that didn't pan out in the long run. GM is pouring funds into Buick, but for what? Buick doesn't have a niche anymore. It's time to concentrate on making Chevrolet a diverse and sensible brand, and continuing to refine Cadillac. It may be premature to go this far in (though I feel it's logical) since GM still has fully resolved the Hummer, Saturn, and Saab issues.

[LeSabre]

Ok, I am upping the ante for NA.

Chevrolet & Cadillac should & would be killed off.
Leaving Pontiac, Buick & GMC....perhaps keeping Saturn too w/Hummer & Saab to be sold off or made independent.

Pontiac will be performance oriented as it should be all around.
Buick will be luxury oriented w/perhaps some performance models.
GMC will be the truck/SUV brand.

Saturn will be the family focused brand. The quality of their models will be like what Saturn has today minus the Sky.

The Corvette will be its own brand of sorts & continue as the semi-exclusive GM sports car.

So there you have it, Each brand w/its own identity & consumer target for the marketplace.

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[Thrash]

I still get amazed why people always bring up Pontiac to close. Unless I'm mistaken, here are the target markets:

Chevrolet = least expensive brand
Pontiac = sporty brand (see Mazda)
Buick = old peoples car
Cadillac = expensive old peoples car

I'm 39 and am doubtful I make the move to the Buick old peoples car when I get older unless they start making Buick GN turbos again.

[Gerard]

Point is: How soon can GM scrap Pontiac? The sooner the better.

[Ed Arcuri]

I have owned a number of Chevrolets. I have never purchased one new. It is not a brand name that causes my heart to surge. I know that it is difficult for some to understand, but to me Chevrolet has always been a good, serviceable car and little more.
I presently own two of them for racing. At the racetrack, they are like belly buttons.
When I used to race NHRA's stock eliminator, I became keenly aware that it was really Chevy eliminator with your odd Dodge or Ford occasionally thrown in. Were the cars that much better? I think not. Beat a Chevy BelAir one weekend and see it show up in a lower class, with a better handicap, the next weekend as a Delray. They were ubiquitous and to me, boring.
I hope Chevrolet sells a potload of cars and I certainly don't "hate" them. No one needs to agree with me. I write this so that I can express the view that there are some of us who don't feel it necessary to genuflect before the bowtie. I thought someone needed to say so.
Cheers,
Ed

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by Gerard

Point is: How soon can GM scrap Pontiac? The sooner the better.

You are a Chevy fanboy & Pontiac hater!!
Plain & simple!

Chevrolet is a model hog.

Now go away!




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[Gerard]

Originally Posted by LeSabre

You are a Chevy fanboy & Pontiac hater!!
Plain & simple!

Chevrolet is a model hog.

Now go away!




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I'm not. I drove a 1967 Firebird 350, drooled over the 1998-2002 Trans Am WS6 in high school, and preferred the 1977-78 Trans Am (flaming chicken and all) over the whole 1970-81 Camaro series.

My issue is with common sense. GMC and Pontiac fanboys are holding emotion over business sense. Chevrolet has a huge consumer base and much larger and devoted following that Buick, Pontiac, and GMC combined. In an era of increasing global competition and brand simplification, GM needs to cut its losses in unnecessary assets.

Pontiac is now just a leech to Chevrolet's product line. Move the G8 over as an Impala, slap a bowtie on the Saturn Sky, and keep it down to a mainstream Chevy and a glamorous Cadillac.

[T'Cal]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

I'm not going to respond everyone who pointed out Scion.

I mean... what a complete JOKE that is.

Pontiac as Scion??? ARE YOU FRIGGIN KIDDING ME???

Instead of trying to build a brand that purposely tries to be younger, why not build cars that attract younger people?? That is the FALLACY of Scion!! It's still a friggin Toyota in youthful gift wrapping.

I'd rather Pontiac die than see it become an American Scion. SHEESH.

I can see a point here. GM could slim down to two bands, Chevy and Cadillac, and then later have Pontiac return on Chevy showrooms or as a stand alone brand, to sell specialty cars. They don't have to be econoboxes. They could be limited production high performance cars based on Chevy models but heavily modified. A Firebird Trans Am could be made from the Camaro. A GTO coupe could be made from the G8-based Impala. Grand Am coupe and sedan could come from the Malibu. They would be built by a subcontracted company in limited numbers for a premium price. But for now, GM needs to concentrate on its core vehicles and lose the redundant models from GMC, Buick, Pontiac, and Saturn.

[Ed Arcuri]

Oh, I get it now. These lower volume brands need to go.
I'm going to miss Porsche.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by Ed Arcuri

Oh, I get it now. These lower volume brands need to go.
I'm going to miss Porsche.

Thats almost right...

The lower volume, ZERO profit brands need to go... We can change the marketing tag line from Pontiac is Car, to, Pontiac is Financial Loss.

How is Porsche and VW doing these days? They made 7.3 Billion last fiscal half...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123848260107873033.html

[Ed Arcuri]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Thats almost right...

The lower volume, ZERO profit brands need to go... We can change the marketing tag line from Pontiac is Car, to, Pontiac is Financial Loss.

How is Porsche and VW doing these days? They made 7.3 Billion last fiscal half...

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123848260107873033.html

Porsche has built a profitable company around a niche product - now products. I have seen a lot of change in the product and the perception of Pontiac in my lifetime. I believe, strongly, that Pontiac can be a profitable part of the GM enterprise even at low volumes. As you correctly responded, the low volume Porsche is doing quite well. Of course, the Porsches are expensive, but more important: they are focused.
If GM attempts to cover a big slice of the market with Buick, they will dilute the luxury image they want to build and maintain for the brand. If they attempt to maintain free-standing Buick dealers, I fear that they will not have enough market coverage to successfully keep profitable dealers. The BPG concept allows GM to refine each marque and be able to move with the vicissitudes of the market.
My point is, simply, that the obsession with cutting Pontiac in its present form does little to address the longer term need for a viable BPG channel.

Cheers,
Ed

[nadepalma]

Originally Posted by Ed Arcuri

Porsche has built a profitable company around a niche product - now products. I have seen a lot of change in the product and the perception of Pontiac in my lifetime. I believe, strongly, that Pontiac can be a profitable part of the GM enterprise even at low volumes. As you correctly responded, the low volume Porsche is doing quite well. Of course, the Porsches are expensive, but more important: they are focused.
If GM attempts to cover a big slice of the market with Buick, they will dilute the luxury image they want to build and maintain for the brand. If they attempt to maintain free-standing Buick dealers, I fear that they will not have enough market coverage to successfully keep profitable dealers. The BPG concept allows GM to refine each marque and be able to move with the vicissitudes of the market.
My point is, simply, that the obsession with cutting Pontiac in its present form does little to address the longer term need for a viable BPG channel.

Cheers,
Ed

Well said.

However, while I forcefully agree that Pontiac needs to stay, I also feel that a larger Buick footprint will not dilute the brand. I believe that the idea of luxury evolves and shifts now and then. Just as years ago "luxury" meant bigger cars with acres of leather, today it can mean anything that is conceivably premium. This is true of Mini or more traditional brands like Benz. Its all about how it is presented.

For Buick, they would fit the very definition of an "entry-level luxury" or "near luxury" brand -- and always have. I believe that they could offer a limited slate of products and still keep their brand characteristics tightly focused:

A small, C-segment Skylark/Excelle
A midsized Regal
A "large"/upper-midsized LaCrosse
A 5-passenger SUV
A 7-passenger Enclave SUV
A specialty car -- Either a coupe or a convertible or both.

That's it. They can enter new segments and offer unique looking products without offering a full lineup and it would be equally effective.

HOWEVER, they must be marketed and priced accordingly. If Buick tries to charge Infiniti or Acura prices for similar products, it won't work.

But if they charged a starting-$20K for a nicely appointed C-segment car (a price point at which many mid-sizers begin), they it would not only increase profit-per-unit, but also allow them to undercut their competitors like the S40/C30, 9-3, TSX, A3 etc. This should be their intention and feel they can this without stripping the brand of what it is.

Just my two cents.

And of course, Pontiac could be part of that dealership experience as well...

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by Ed Arcuri

Porsche has built a profitable company around a niche product - now products. I have seen a lot of change in the product and the perception of Pontiac in my lifetime.

And that in a nutshell is the issue with Pontiac... I too have seen a ton of change with the perception of Pontiac and came within a heart beat of buying a 69 GTO convertible when I was in University. Those were the 80's and Pontiac was "excitement"

What we have seen at Pontiac is years (if not DECADES) of brand mismanagement. It is now the division of badge engineered "also rans" Nothing at Pontiac has a future... Every car that the division sells is either dead (G3, G5, G6) or riding on a platform that GM has cancelled (G8, Solstice)

The names of the cars are confusing and meaningless and lack history... and when we bring back a historic name (GTO) we refuse to market it and we almost encourage our dealers to gouge customers to a point where we BEG customers to shop elsewhere. (Same thing is happening with current G8 btw)

The days of Pontiac offering anything unique or different then Chevy died around 1990. The dream that we could have a "performance division" rise from the ashes of "Pontiac is Car" have long since passed.

There is what Pontiac was, what Pontiac is, what Pontiac could be, and what Pontiac will be.

Pontiac was Performance and Excitement, those days have long passed and have been mostly forgotten by most new car buyers,
Pontiac is re-badged rental cars, that is the hard cold reality.
Pontiac could have been something if Rick and Lutz had of actually "pitched" and marketed the new GTO, made it look COOL and shipped it in large enough numbers that dealers would not have been able to mark up the car over MSRP (to only kill sales and have them sit on lots).

What will Pontiac be?
Pontiac will be history sometime within the new few weeks.

Sadly when the new GTO died, it killed Pontiac with it.

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

And that in a nutshell is the issue with Pontiac... I too have seen a ton of change with the perception of Pontiac and came within a heart beat of buying a 69 GTO convertible when I was in University. Those were the 80's and Pontiac was "excitement"

What we have seen at Pontiac is years (if not DECADES) of brand mismanagement. It is now the division of badge engineered "also rans" Nothing at Pontiac has a future... Every car that the division sells is either dead (G3, G5, G6) or riding on a platform that GM has cancelled (G8, Solstice)

The names of the cars are confusing and meaningless and lack history... and when we bring back a historic name (GTO) we refuse to market it and we almost encourage our dealers to gouge customers to a point where we BEG customers to shop elsewhere. (Same thing is happening with current G8 btw)

The days of Pontiac offering anything unique or different then Chevy died around 1990. The dream that we could have a "performance division" rise from the ashes of "Pontiac is Car" have long since passed.

There is what Pontiac was, what Pontiac is, what Pontiac could be, and what Pontiac will be.

Pontiac was Performance and Excitement, those days have long passed and have been mostly forgotten by most new car buyers,
Pontiac is re-badged rental cars, that is the hard cold reality.
Pontiac could have been something if Rick and Lutz had of actually "pitched" and marketed the new GTO, made it look COOL and shipped it in large enough numbers that dealers would not have been able to mark up the car over MSRP (to only kill sales and have them sit on lots).

What will Pontiac be?
Pontiac will be history sometime within the new few weeks.

Sadly when the new GTO died, it killed Pontiac with it.

I bet you're wrong!!



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