Pontiac Needs to Close

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

The last sole hope for Saturn is for GM to really turn it into a true European car brand.
Saturn would be for people who do not like American-style designs and performance.
It would be GM's answer to VW.
Saturn needs to be differentiated, and currently, it is half-assed.

Not a bad plan... except European GM... Isn't that SAAB's market slot?

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Not a bad plan... except European GM... Isn't that SAAB's market slot?

Yes and no.
Saab is a premium niche. It's higher than VW. It's Audi.
It is differentiable.

Whether or not GM takes the time and effort to properly differentiate the 2.... is the difference.

[longislander]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

. The best GM can do for Pontiac going forward is to slap twin kidney grilles on existing Chevy products to provide greater volume for BPG stores and the factories making individual platforms.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. The Pontiac versions will invariably look better than, and be considered upscale to, the Chevy version The combined sales of two versions can only be equal to or greater than the sales of a Chevy version alone.
For example - there might be buyers who, because of previous bad experience with a Chevy Cavalier, wouldn't buy a Cobalt, but wouldn't hesitate to buy a Pontiac G5. But do you think any buyer would REFUSE to buy a Cobalt because the G5 exists ? I don't think so...so offering 2 versions can only result in a net sales gain to GM.

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by longislander

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. The Pontiac versions will invariably look better than, and be considered upscale to, the Chevy version The combined sales of two versions can only be equal to or greater than the sales of a Chevy version alone.
For example - there might be buyers who, because of previous bad experience with a Chevy Cavalier, wouldn't buy a Cobalt, but wouldn't hesitate to buy a Pontiac G5. But do you think any buyer would REFUSE to buy a Cobalt because the G5 exists ? I don't think so...so offering 2 versions can only result in a net sales gain to GM.

I absolutely see everything wrong w/what Lichtronamo said. It's what GM has largely been doing for decades w/the vehicles of Pontiacs. Not only have they(GM) been giving Pontiac blatant rebadges of Chevys' but also currently & recently blatant rebadges of Holdens' as well. This **** has got to stop, once & for all!!!

I am not a Chevy kind of guy for the most part. But between the Cobalt or the G5, I would in this case go w/the Chevy b/c I would not even bother w/the G5, b/c its the same exact car w/different badging & fascias(front & rear). Of the 2, the Chevy is the genuine article. The Pontiac is a complete waste of materials & money to manufacture different fascias. Same thing goes for the G8. I much rather have the real article, the Holden Commodore! Though I am SOL since it is not offered in the States as a Holden Commodore. The G8 can take a hike!....same w/the coming G8 ST.



.

[Minnesota Nice]

You always amaze me simply because we agree 110% on everything.

I was at the dealership the other day, and I realized "Why are there Pontiac's here at all?"

The only Pontiac's worthy of a second look, in my opinion, are the Solstice, G8 GT, and the new Vibe.

That's it. That's also because everything else is a careless rebadge.

Oh, and also...Pontiac's website says "Taking names is CAR. Pontiac.Is.Car"

I gagged in my mouth a little bit. I wonder what old raisin at GM thought that line would be cool. I've been trying to build a Vibe (because I'm quite interested in a GT model) for weeks, but their website constantly freezes up, redirects to nothingness, and lags me to death.

I don't think making your website lag like your sales is a good way to fix your brand.

[longislander]

Originally Posted by LeSabre

I am not a Chevy kind of guy for the most part. But between the Cobalt or the G5, I would in this case go w/the Chevy b/c I would not even bother w/the G5, b/c its the same exact car w/different badging & fascias(front & rear). Of the 2, the Chevy is the genuine article. The Pontiac is a complete waste of materials & money to manufacture different fascias.
.

You illustrate my point for me. You wouldn't NOT buy a Cobalt merely because Pontiac makes the G5, but someone who simply would not buy a Chevy, for whatever reason, might buy a G5. That adds incremental sales for GM at a very minimal cost. Why is that so terrible ?

[Xenon]

But how many people are like that? Most people that wont buy a Chevy wont buy a Pontiac either.

[Xenon]

Originally Posted by Minnesota Nice

You always amaze me simply because we agree 110% on everything.

I was at the dealership the other day, and I realized "Why are there Pontiac's here at all?"

The only Pontiac's worthy of a second look, in my opinion, are the Solstice, G8 GT, and the new Vibe.

That's it. That's also because everything else is a careless rebadge.

Oh, and also...Pontiac's website says "Taking names is CAR. Pontiac.Is.Car"

I gagged in my mouth a little bit. I wonder what old raisin at GM thought that line would be cool. I've been trying to build a Vibe (because I'm quite interested in a GT model) for weeks, but their website constantly freezes up, redirects to nothingness, and lags me to death.

I don't think making your website lag like your sales is a good way to fix your brand.

Being dead honest with you, why would you want to trade a Civic Si for a Vibe? Unless you really don't care for driving...

[Minnesota Nice]

Originally Posted by Xenon

Being dead honest with you, why would you want to trade a Civic Si for a Vibe? Unless you really don't care for driving...

Nope, no worries. I appreciate people's insight.

I love my Civic Si for many reasons, the quality issues I've suffered not included. However, the size (2 door) is getting to be too small for me, and I want a compact SUV, and have for awhile.

I think, personally, that the Vibe GT is the sexiest 'wagon' SUV on the market. The Matrix is horrid, and the CR-V and Escape can't touch it. I realize they aren't in the same markets, so to speak, but I just see the Vibe GT and think "wow...they hit the nail on the head with that design."

It's gorgeous.

It's probably never going to happen, but I have to give it to whoever designed the new Vibe. It's really nice. Except those wheel covers. They destroyed the look with those cheap plastic like wheel covers on the non-GT model.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by Minnesota Nice

You always amaze me simply because we agree 110% on everything.

Originally Posted by Minnesota Nice

The only Pontiac's worthy of a second look, in my opinion, are the Solstice, G8 GT, and the new Vibe.

You know?
I wonder how much more interesting Pontiac would be if Pontiac designers decided to use the Solstice as the starting point of all future Pontiacs.

How would the G8 look if it had looked like a larger cousin of the Solstice? Or even the G6? A hot looking mid-sized sedan with the svelte lines of the Solstice??

Perhaps they wouldn't be blending into the woodwork if they just took a more aggressive design route?

If Pontiac can find a way to truly define themselves -- mainstream RWD performance, then I think Pontiac can find its niche again in this more competitive market. If not, then it is best Pontiac fold.

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by longislander

You illustrate my point for me. You wouldn't NOT buy a Cobalt merely because Pontiac makes the G5, but someone who simply would not buy a Chevy, for whatever reason, might buy a G5. That adds incremental sales for GM at a very minimal cost. Why is that so terrible ?

The only reason that the G5 exists at all is b/c the dealers whined & complained that they didn't have an entry level car(after the Sunfire was discontinued w/out a replacement planned) & GM/Pontiac heads caved to their tantrums. Pontiac management had said that they were not going to get & had no interest in another entry level car shared w/Chevy. The Pontiac dealers had the Vibe yet which was/is in the same vein as the Sunfire was though a small wagon. IMO, the Pontiac dealers had no right to bitch & complain. They had a vehicle(Vibe) that would have filled in the entry car spot in the Pontiac line up.

All in all, the G5 is a mistake. Its the Sunbird all over again...a blatant rebadge of a Chevy.

.

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

You know?
I wonder how much more interesting Pontiac would be if Pontiac designers decided to use the Solstice as the starting point of all future Pontiacs.

How would the G8 look if it had looked like a larger cousin of the Solstice? Or even the G6? A hot looking mid-sized sedan with the svelte lines of the Solstice??

Perhaps they wouldn't be blending into the woodwork if they just took a more aggressive design route?

If Pontiac can find a way to truly define themselves -- mainstream RWD performance, then I think Pontiac can find its niche again in this more competitive market. If not, then it is best Pontiac fold.

I have said this many, many times over the past 2yrs. The Solstice was seemingly to be the fresh start for Pontiac w/the Solstice being Lutz's roadster idea becoming reality, but then Pontiac was once again starved for fresh product & a legitimate follow up to the Solstice w/styling that complemented the Solstices'. But we never got anything that we should have. Instead we got an uninspired Grand Am replacement w/a lame alphanumeric name. The GTO returned after 30yrs. Even though it had a lot of good points, the exterior was a blatant rebadge, this time from GM's Australian brand, Holden of which the GTO was a clone of the Holden Monaro...on a much dated platform. The G8, the latest new car for Pontiac is another blatant rebadge again from Holden. These rebadges from Chevy or Holden is a whole lot of not good....exteriorly speaking.

GM(Ford, Chrysler/etc.) should all give each brand a design language that should last for say no longer than 6 model years then move onto the next one. Each brand should have its own market mission to fulfill whether the brand is a volume brand or a niche brand & should be marketed in accordance w/its market mission.
All new models should have everything ready to go at launch, That being new technology(nav/bluetooth/satelite radio) should be at least available(if not standard) for any given vehicle per class of vehicle.
Any vehicle w/out the said technology can very well lead to a loss of a sale.
Though not always.



.

[Bravada]

I disagree:

1. The GTO actually looked very much in place with its contemporary Pontiacs - thanks to the "global design language" GM uses in case any of their models would need to cover for another

2. The G8 embodies a perfect new look for Pontiac - clean, sleek and dynamic. One that says "go" not with enormous amounts of plastic cladding, but the sheer silhouette of the car. You can say it is not "modern" enough, but with "modern" being embodied by the Scions or Ford Flex, I'd rather Pontiac stayed fashionably retro, like so many brands like to be.

3. A design language should last for much more than 6 years, and creatively evolve around a common core. Audi and BMW have done that pretty well, and that's why people buy them.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by LeSabre

All in all, the G5 is a mistake. Its the Sunbird all over again...a blatant rebadge of a Chevy.

Yes and the unit sales support this POV... the G5 gets very little love compared to the Cobalt or anything else. It was/is dumb. Or to quote Lutz...

"How could we have been so stupid" or something like that.

Originally Posted by Bravada

I disagree:

1. The GTO actually looked very much in place with its contemporary Pontiacs - thanks to the "global design language" GM uses in case any of their models would need to cover for another

2. The G8 embodies a perfect new look for Pontiac - clean, sleek and dynamic. One that says "go" not with enormous amounts of plastic cladding, but the sheer silhouette of the car. You can say it is not "modern" enough, but with "modern" being embodied by the Scions or Ford Flex, I'd rather Pontiac stayed fashionably retro, like so many brands like to be.

3. A design language should last for much more than 6 years, and creatively evolve around a common core. Audi and BMW have done that pretty well, and that's why people buy them.

All fair points.. but if the GTO was such a "contemporary" design... Why did customers stay away in droves... For a car that Pontiac Faithful had be BEGGING GM to make for DECADES.

Same goes for the new G8... oh hum sales... even after we give them away at less then employee pricing

I personally find BMW cars to be as ugly as sin. Audi are a little better. People mostly buy these cars to impress the neighbors.

[longislander]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Yes and the unit sales support this POV... the G5 gets very little love compared to the Cobalt or anything else.

If Pontiac sells 30,000 G5's a year, I'll concede that as many as half of those buyers would have otherwise bought a Cobalt anyway. That's still 15,000 incremental sales for GM, 15,000 customers now "in the fold" and potential repeat Pontiac buyers...again, why is this so terrible ?