Pontiac Needs to Close

[vcs2600]

Why are people here so fixated on a RWD Alpha Pontiac? Its just going to be another $27K car (yes it will cost that much, don't kid yourself) that sells in low numbers. See also GTO and G8.

Even if it was reasonably successful, say 50,000 per year, that's not enough to "save the brand" especially when the volume products are so rebate-oriented.

And because some people have trouble understanding, I'll put it in bold:
There is no reason to maintain a brand just to sell 3 low volume RWD cars.

If Pontiac doesn't have some form of volume product (FWD G6/Vibe/Torrent), they will be closed down.

[Sal Collaziano]

All these discussions are hundreds of posts of all the same opinions all the rest of the posts on the topic have. They should probably all be merged into one. Might as well post my thoughts again...

GMC can be a package offered by Chevrolet. Basically, GMC badges and minor differences like tail lights and grilles. Otherwise, what's the difference anyway? We actually need a separate BRAND for this? That's the joke of all jokes...

Buick needs to stick around to offer the "traditional" luxury that people appreciate as they get older. Remember, old people aren't going anywhere. There will ALWAYS be old people. Why send them ALL to Lexus?!

Chevy can very easily sell Pontiacs. As mentioned, the G8 can be the Impala. Chevy Solstice...

You don't have to lose sales by killing brands. When GM killed Oldsmobile, they should have continued building the Aurora. GM killed the Park Avenue because it sucked. They should have simply renamed the Aurora, "Park Avenue", and continued selling it...

[caling7]

Originally Posted by 2b2

I agree, Caling7
also with further comments by you & JimmyJive. I remember when Pontiacs had some of the most stylish AND IMMITATED designs - they created trends for the whole industry...

Thanks 2b2... One of the pluses I see with this idea is that there are virtually no other companies out there that can commit to such a strategy because they only have one or two brands at most, and they're all constrained by the need to build practical vehicles that will appeal to the greatest amount of people. Finally GM can leverage their multiple brands as an advantage rather than as a negative.

Like I said, Chevy and Opel/Saturn can build vehicles that are practical and sensible enough to compete with anything else offered by Toyota, Honda, VW, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. With no need to appeal to those customers' practical needs, Pontiac can truly be freed, completely uninhibited to build nothing less than rolling pieces of art; so aggressive, so sporty, so "compromised" for form above function, that not a single car company that doesn't have multiple brands in its' stable could afford to build true competitors to the Pontiac lineup.

[tamatt27]

Originally Posted by spidge

Just out of curiosity, can I ask why Pontiac over Chevy (aside from the G8, Vibe, or Solstice, which aren't avaliable at Chevy dealerships)? Styling?

Yes. I'm not defending Pontiac's current lineup, I'm defending their huge potential! It's been proven, with the Solstice, Malibum and CTS, that if you build great awe-inspiring cars people will buy them!
In my opinion Pontiac's future is bright, but will need to be dimmed down for survival at this point. Keep the G8 with the DI 3.6 for base trim and only V8 will be with the GXP model. Solstice can be kept in current form for another model year or so, then refresh with both engine choices having DI. G6 needs to be refreshed next model year and be the only vehicle in NA on it's platform available with a manual. That's it. In 4 or 5 years, when the shine of the Camaro has REALLY worn off and GM's got better cash flow, come out with a jaw-dropping GTO and 'Ute to revitalize the brand and start it's renaissance.

[jasaero]

Originally Posted by TriShield

How is a brand "fixed" if nobody buys those cars? Alpha could be the best thing on four wheels but the Pontiac brand and image will instantly kill it, how would you convince people? GM isn't even going to be here by 2013 at the rate they are going.

Well in that respect I think Pontiac is far ahead of Saturn and even competing brands like Scion. In the not enthusiast world I know very few that know what a Scion is, but everyone still knows pontiac. They are just assumed to build crap. They have to start building something more than G5's and G6's for that assumption to be a total fallacy!!

[Watchdevil]

Since the demise of the Firebird, neglect of the Grand Prix and abandoment of traditional Pontiac names, I have found Pontiac irrelavent and uninteresting as a brand itself.

The G8 is nice but it could be sold under any GM brand. The Solstice is nice but Saturn has the Sky. The G6 coupe and convertible fill slots not occupied by any other GM division but those cars may as well have been branded as a Chevy or Buick by just inserting a different fascia on the front. The rest of the cars are just badge engineered Chevys. The Vibe stands alone but who asked for it.

[DenCo]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Pontiac still sells, even if they're all POS's too. but that doesn't help Pontiac's reputation... nor does it help GM's reputation... and it just perpetuates the fact that GM is a directionless company.

As someone with experience with the Vibe, G5, G6 and Torrent, how are they all POS's? As far as "rebadges" go, the styling is differntiated for the most part to the point where it looks like a different car. The only exception to this is probably the G5 and the Cobalt, but the styling actually seems to fit Pontiac better than it does Chevrolet. The G6 is an Epsilon car, just like the Aura and Malibu, but it's actually the most unique one among the three and cannot be qualified of POS. The dynamics also typically appear to be somewhat differentiated, which leaves me to believe that there are tweaks beyond the styling in most cases, which could lead one to prefer the Pontiac over the Chevrolet, or vice versa.

Really, the only Pontiac that might be a problem is the soon to be retired Grand-Prix: it's an old design, on an old chassis, using old-school GM parts in majority. However, the rest of the lineup is modern, competitive and certainly worthy of sticking around. Are they entirely unique? No. But compare an Acura to a Honda, and you'll see similar part sharing and in vehicles supposed to belong on two seperate tiers in this case.

You don't turn things around overnight and the biggest part of the problem is the public's ~20 year outdated perception of all things GM. Why shutter a division that's still selling, and selling competitive product at that? Because some people think there's only room for Chevrolet and Cadillac? Because that's the Toyota and Honda way? Well... We're not talking about Toyota or Honda here, and frankly I don't see the problem. Could they better differentiate the G5 and Wave/G3? Probably... But, I don't see how they're so far out of line to some, especially excluding those "rebadges." Leave high-end performance to Cadillac, especially when people are incresingly caringt about efficiency: the G5 I drive is decently "fun, without being a 500hp supercar.

[Ric Cortez]

WOW, you are all brilliant! Every Pontiac car was designed for a specific group of people.
As person new to the industry many products are developed with a long range plan, to keep a customer coming back to GM and to upscale to a more expensive model. Just because you cannot envision a large group of our society that has a certin requirement for each vehicle purpose you have decided against Pontiac. Buick should go,as their is no new small cars in their line up and none planned that I know of, the cost would be less than Oldsmobile. The public relations impact would be hard to overcome.
GM needs some diesels engines and NOW in the US. The new 2.9L V6 diesel by VM would be an excellant choice for midsize cars. and the 1.4L would be excellant for compact cars. The new 4.6 V8 diesel would be excellant in the HUMMER and pickups size vehicle. The customers need for a high MPG city vehicle must be met and now.
VOLKSWAGEN AND HONDA WILL BRING CLEAN DIESEL TO THE US THIS YEAR. BOTH WITH 40MPG CITY. 50+ HWAY. GM CAN BRING THE SATURN ASTRA FROM GERMANY WITH 1 OR MORE CHOICES OF DIESEL ENGINES. Before you argue against diesel engines add up the miles per dollar. Diesel is the way to go!! Until hgih efficency batteries can be made.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by DenCo

You don't turn things around overnight and the biggest part of the problem is the public's ~20 year outdated perception of all things GM.

You made the point - GM has trashed Pontiac over the last 20-30 years and there is no going back - at least no way GM can really afford.

As for "selling" - most of Pontiac's sales are fleet sales lead by the GP and G6. Take away the fleet sales, the sales difference between the GP and G8 and move the Torrent to GMC and now Pontiac sells at levels less than Saturn.

[CadiEldo67]

I argue with the title of this thread. What Pontiac needs is not to be a BMW competitor, thats what Cadillac is for. Pontiac needs to be fun to drive, with sporty intentions, and good looks. The cars need to be bold, and there doesn't need to be a full lineup. I would recommend at least 3 cars, but probably 4 would be best. And at this point, I wouldn't even mind the G#'s. Just get some good cars out there...NOW!

Solstice - Kappa II/Alpha SWB - 1.4 DI Turbo 180hp (Base) / 2.0 DI Turbo 260hp
G4 Sedan/Coupe - Alpha SWB - 1.4 DI Turbo base / 2.0 DI Turbo 260
G6 Coupe/Convertible - Alpha (Reg. or LWB) 1.4 DI Turbo / 2.0 DI detuned (260) 3.6 DI Turbo 300hp
G8 Coupe/Wagon - Zeta 3.6 DI Turbo 300hp, 4.0 DI Turbo 375hp, 6.2 LS3 430hp (GXP only)

Trims levels are:
Base
GT
GXP

Transmissions Include:
6 Speed Auto
6 Speed Manual

[Jimmy Jive]

Pontiac's problem is simple. GM got lazy, and got comfortable with them being just another 'volume cow'. A slightly more styled Chevy.

For Pontiac to succeed, they can't rely on being such a volume brand. What's the core values of Pontiac? Design and performance. Some designs won't fly with everyone out there. And performance will cost money. Thus Pontiac's won't sell in high numbers to everyone.

As I see it, GM has two options.
One; they close down Pontiac, lose the fans, lose the volume. That's a given.
Two; they take a chance, and turn Pontiac into a low volume niche brand. Where they'd keep the fans, potentially gain new ones, and keep at least some of it's former volume.

I mean, GMC is GM's 2nd best selling division, and all they are is slight re-badged upper market Chevy's. So why can't Pontiac exist as re-skinned, re-engineered for performance, versions of other car platforms? The day of trucks and suv's selling in large numbers are over (GMC). GM is finally getting cars right. It would be a shame if Pontiac couldn't get atleast one clean chance to prove their moxy.

What's to stop the next G5 (FWD or RWD) from being styled like a Porsche, but cost no where as close. What's to stop a mid-size Alpha coupe from using turbo'd DI I4's? How about twin-turbo DI I4's? A FWD G6 that has no base-model, comes standard with FE3 suspension and all the best parts of GMPerformanceParts. A GrandPrix sedan that looks like an R8? All Pontiac cars come offered with all sorts of optional body-kits, wheels, spoilers, across the brand. Just some idea's off the top of my head...

[377Z]

Originally Posted by Lichtronamo

...GM has trashed Pontiac over the last 20-30 years and there is no going back - at least no way GM can really afford.

If this thread was boiled down to its fundimental core, the above quote is all that would be left.

They've had YEARS to address all the big and little problems and inconsistencies, but chose to do nearly nothing meaningful.

GM has treated the Pontiac (and Buick) Division like third world hospitals treat poor patients, and thinking the Pontiac Division is anything but very sick is falling for the mirage. Looking at the Pontiac Division is like seeing a 1968 GTO in someone's yard at the side of a country road. You're surprised to see it, but the closer you get the worse it looks--not only does every panel have dents and or rust, some of the glass is cracked, the trim that isn't missing is dinged up and corroded, but the car has incorrect wheels, incorrect engine, thrashed interior with cheasy seat covers, tacked on scoops and spoiler, & the car has been painted with a roller, several times. By the time you give it a good once over you then realize that not only was this once fine car neglected and abused, but the 'improvements' done to it ensure that only a professional can bring this car back. GM is the poor goon who keeps trying to win the local car show by just giving it another coat of latex house paint and some strategic applications of duct tape. Too bad they didn't do it when they had the money, but maybe if they just get the shade of that Weatherbeater right this time...

[Maki]

If GM wants to get rid of Pontiac then I hope they consider selling it instead of just shutting it down. That way they get rid of a brand,make some cash and lose some dealers,while someone else with more commitment and vision revives the brand and takes it to it's full potential. GM has nothing to gain by shutting it down,because most people won't transition to other brands like they didn't for Oldsmobile.
Pontiac then won't have to worry about being in Chevy's shadow,and wait for GM to toss crumbs at it. An independent Pontiac could bring back a Trans Am without worrying about cannibalizing Camaro sales,or making a car thats faster then a Vette....if only I was filthy rich I'd buy the brand myself.

[skypilot]

Pontiac needs to stay Pontiac, excitement, performance, and luxury on a budget. Bring back the cladding and distinctive styling that identifies Pontiacs, give the cars back their identities, Firebirds, Trans Am, Grand Ams, real Grand Prix's, and Bonnevilles.

Pontiac just needs to do Pontiac.

[mrgto]

Stupid thread.

Solstice is a hit. G6 Vert is doing well and unique to Pontiac. G6 coup is unique to Pontiac G8 is unique to Pontiac.

GP and Torrent are no longer in the mix. Vibe looks very good. Solstice Coup is coming....they need another smaller RWD car with more space. They could also use a GTO style coupe as well.

pontiac is far from dead and not going anywhere.