Pontiac Needs to Close

[Jimmy Jive]

Originally Posted by caling7

Here's a crazy idea. Pontiac should be, and is the only GM brand that could be all about 4-door coupes (though i hate that fake marketing term, you understand what I'm referring to). Chevrolet and Opel/Saturn still need to build sedans and crossovers that are practical enough to appeal to the largest amount of people. Since that market is covered, Pontiac can concentrate on building absolutely stunning sculptures-on-wheels that are so low, long and sleek that they are on the verge of being impractical.

Basically, it would be a male-targeted brand where looks and performance (FWD, RWD, AWD, doesn't matter) override the other necessities of practicality and mass-appeal because the other two mainstream GM brands (Chevy & Opel/Saturn) already take care of that. What do you think?

This is always how I saw it as well. Pontiac's were as much about design as performance. They don't need to crimp on Chevy's, hell design Chevy's to win awards. But they still have to appeal to the masses. Now a world-wide mass. Pontiac's could always be more of an exotic alternative. For the enthusiast, or those who choose form over funtion.

[caling7]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Jive

This is always how I saw it as well. Pontiac's were as much about design as performance. They don't need to crimp on Chevy's, hell design Chevy's to win awards. But they still have to appeal to the masses. Now a world-wide mass. Pontiac's could always be more of an exotic alternative. For the enthusiast, or those who choose form over funtion.

Exactly!! Chevy and Opel/Saturn can/should be great looking and have sporty performance, but they will always have to "compromise" to some degree for the sake of practicality; to compete with Camry headroom, Accord rear leg room, etc.

Without the need to sell 500,000 practical Camry-fighters a year, Pontiac would be free to make such issues secondary and concentrate on appealing solely, uniquely, and unequivocally to the enthusiast. Like I said; low, long, sleek, and more "badass" than any other company could afford to make their products (sedans, coupes, crossovers, anything the enthusiast customer will buy).

P.S. If GMC does get shut down (which I believe is the most likely scenario solely due to CAFE), the rumors of Saturn being integrated into the BPG dealer network (thus creating a BPS dealer network) would only work logically with such a scenario as I proposed for Pontiac. Otherwise, Pontiac and Saturn would overlap almost across their lineups. Ultimately you would have Buick (luxury), Saturn (practical upper mass market), and Pontiac ("impractical", uncompromising mass market performance). They would look and feel like nothing else on the market, so there wouldn't be any substantial overlap.

[Maki]

Originally Posted by TriShield

How is a brand "fixed" if nobody buys those cars? Alpha could be the best thing on four wheels but the Pontiac brand and image will instantly kill it, how would you convince people? GM isn't even going to be here by 2013 at the rate they are going.

So you would give Alpha to Chevy,because that brand has such a better,more upscale,sporty image then Pontiac??? And you think Pontiac is redundant, but having Chevy get a RWD and FWD car of the same size a smart decision??? Do you hate Pontiac??? I'm asking,because GM will not gain much by closing it. Billions will be wasted by shutting down the brand,and loyal customers will be lost. Not everyone will want to transition to Chevy,so I don't understand your insistence on shutting down Pontiac.

The answer to your question on how to convince people to buy a Pontiac is a GOOD PRODUCT & PROPER MARKETING. If those executives at GM don't understand that,then they should go back to business school.

[88mm]

Make Pontiac the inhouse tuning brand for Chevy.
+ Keep Pontiac alive with a unique mission statement.
+ Cheaper vehicle developement.
+ Cheaper advertising.
+ Sold through chevy dealership.
- Rebadge (but wicked rebadge)
- It being done by GMNA. (If they are wise the nthey should ask Holden HSV for help)

Pontiac = Subaru STI, Mercedes AMG, BMW M division, or looking at another GM brand, Holden HSV . Pontiac will be tasked with transforming Chevies SS into uber performance. Because base cars are from Chevy be they FWD,AWD or RWD, the fix and interior refinement will not be in conflict with GM other premium brands. Pontiac will also receive niche vechiles from overseas if it fit with the Pontiac ethos ie HSV R8, Opel Astra VXR, the Vauxhall VX220....

In the future any Camaro Z28 or Corvette ZR1 will now be a Pontiac product, pherhaps with the tag "Camaro/Corvette by Pontiac."

[FierySolstice]

Originally Posted by mkwelbornjr

Pontiac should have a great compact car similar to the VW GTI. Lots of luxury and performance rolled into a solid sporty package. and 30MPG out a turbo 4.

Thank you!!! I've been saying this for months now! They need a true hot hatch, not an AWD Pontiac badge wearing bland Toyota!!! Call it the G4 or better yet, let Pontaic go back to names!

Grand Prix (G8)
Grand AM (G6 only sedan)
Le Mans (Vibe replacement)
Firebird/Trans AM (G6 coupe/convertible replacement)
Solstice (roadster)
Torrent (sport crossover)

I would also like to see the Torrent turned into something similar to the BMW X6. More for the sport and less for the utility.

[Lichtronamo]

Originally Posted by LeSabre

I think that if GM was REALLY serious about brand identity of each division it would put money into each division as it has Cadillac to turn them around & get them each on the right track w/their own specific missions to their respective markets.

Everyone here in favor of saving Pontiac overlooks one critical fact - GM has no money left to invest in each of these brands. They are being forced to cut and run on at least some of these.

Want a GTI / Mazda3 competitor? Look for an Astra variant sold as Saturn (because it already exists).

Want a Mazda6 competitor - Look for a variant of the Opel Insigina soon to be Saturn Aura. How about a Solstice?

The Sky lives on.

Pontiac Vibe? Dump the embarrassing rebadge of a Toyota in favor of an Opel Zafira.

The only unique product Pontiac has is the G8 - a car that will see no significant volume as a Pontiac. This car can be sold along side of Opels as it does in Australia and in the UK. Or as has been suggested, make it the Impala with Chevy badges as it is sold in the Middle East.

Cutting Saturn is not an option given the number of stand alone stores that would be closed. Pontiac's gross sales volume may be more than Saturn, but more than 50% of the total in 2007 were fleet sales. The volume of Pontiac sales of the Grand Prix and Torrent also need to be subtracted. I don't have the numbers for Saturn, but I'd bet that Saturn's retail sales are higher as are the sales per store.

Everyone can wish for a return to the JZD 60s or flaming chicken heyday for Pontiac, but it just isn't going to happen.

[RedVee8]

Make one full line from Saturn and Pontiac, available at the same dealers. One of each duplication gets voted off if it can't pull its weight. G3, G5 vs Astra, Vibe, G6 Vs Aura, G8, Vue, Outlook, Sky Vs Solstice.

[longislander]

Originally Posted by spidge

Just out of curiosity, can I ask why Pontiac over Chevy (aside from the G8, Vibe, or Solstice, which aren't avaliable at Chevy dealerships)? Styling?

Maybe it's because of my age (53) but when I was a kid, Chevy was one of the "low priced three" along with Ford and Plymouth, and accordingly a lack of prestige compared to Pontiac, Mercury, Dodge, etc. My dad drove Buicks. Chevy was a poorer man's car...that's why I don't really want a Chevy.

[377Z]

Originally Posted by 2648562

I won't argue with you one bit. It could be saved, but it won't be by the guys running GM now. They need to wait until they confess their sales have royally tanked, they bet wrong on just about everything (including their turnaround plan), and all the other bad news I can't even imagine is coming has been announced in the very near future.

Agree completely.

[Archangel]

Killing Pontiac will only make GM's image more fragile. What Pontiac needs is a change. Pontiac needs a RWD sport compact. Take a look at the street tuner out there, drift events and many others. Why do you think there are so many AE86s and 240SXs? The answer is simple. Perhaps GM will trail the japanese in the sport compact segment(for now) but having a RWD sport compact will give GM a highly desirable attribute that the competition doesn't have. I think this should be Pontiac's lineup:

Pontiac Astra - 1.8L Ecotec 138hp (std)/ 2.2L Ecotec 155hp (opt)

Pontiac Vibe - 1.8L Ecotec 138hp (Std)/ AWD 2.4L Ecotec 177hp (Opt)

Pontiac G5 - RWD sport compact, 2.2L Ecotec 155hp (Std)/2.4L Ecotec 200hp(Opt)/270hp 2.0L Ecotec Turbo (GXP)

Pontiac Solstice - 2.4L Ecotec 200hp (Std)/2.0L Ecotec 300hp (GXP)

Pontiac G6 - 2.4L Ecotec 177hp (Std)/3.6L V6 252hp(opt.)/AWD,3.6L DI V6 282p (GXP)

Pontiac G8- 3.6L V6 256hp(Std.)/6.0L V8 361hp(Opt)/6.2L V8 403hp (GXP)

Pontiac G8 Coupe or GTO - G8 based, 6.0L V8 362hp (Std)/6.2L V8 450hp (Opt.)

[ScottS]

So to summarize... rather than fixing it, cut it.

I don't like it. If bad decisions are being made, fix the source of the bad decisions.

[Chaz_23]

Like I said elsewhere, GM will end up closing B and P and G and Hummer eventually, plus Saab. GM doesn't seem to be capable or willing to handle these brands properly. Of all these Pontiac is the one worthy of saving because performance is always desirable.

[sigma]

Originally Posted by Bravada

Now that LaX becomes a Chinafied Insignia, the G6 will be fighting three Epsilon brethren. I'd say no to G6, but yes to a compact for BPG dealers, this time something distinctive and able to turn heads around. Think Mazda3. A crossover a la Vibe would also make sense. Actually, Pontiac makes more sense than people realize.

PS. Still, the G6 is selling strong, for whatever strange reason.

Because Hertz and Avis need cars so they can "try harder" to "go the extra mile."

[Beau]

The problem with the CUT and run, people will start to see GM as an entity as a damaged corporation. Oldsmobile, then probably Hummer, then maybe Pontiac...

It just spells "Stay Out" to consumers of other brands to be honest...

Not to mention there is heritidge there. I like Pontiacs styling, and the fact they are more dark and edgy. Just the style I prefer.

A nice direct injection 2.2 and 2.4 would be great for a SMALL and LIGHT RWD car similar to the old 240s would be nice. Thats performance oriented, but if the base modle were to get 32 highway, and say 24 city, that would be in my opinion a great trade off.

[2b2]

Originally Posted by caling7

Here's a crazy idea. Pontiac should be, and is the only GM brand that could be all about 4-door coupes (though i hate that fake marketing term, you understand what I'm referring to)... ...Pontiac can concentrate on building absolutely stunning sculptures-on-wheels that are so low, long and sleek that they are on the verge of being impractical.

I agree, Caling7
also with further comments by you & JimmyJive.
(already have a design concept/name, better imho than that jumbo-shrimp-4doorcoupe term)

I remember when Pontiacs had some of the most stylish AND IMMITATED designs - they created trends for the whole industry...
...only takes One Idea...
(and some duct tape... ...to silence the beancounters/focus-group 'marketing experts'/etc)
&
fits in beautifully with this idea < shameless plug