Pontiac Needs to Close

[mgescuro]

Pontiac Needs to Close
... another commentary by mgescuro ...

Sorry.
There is nothing more the brand can do.

What is Pontiac these days? G8, G6, G5, Grand Prix, Torrent, Vibe, Solstice,
Of all those, the only 2 worth mentioning is the G8 and Solstice.

G6 has become the fleet queen.
Grand Prix is puzzlingly still alive.
Torrent is a straight rebadged.
G5 is a straight rebadge.
Wave/G4 (or G3) will be a straight rebadged.
The above 5 have no business being in a brand for so-called “performance” cars.

And there is nothing at Pontiac that can’t be sold as a Chevrolet or badged as an SS.

The G8 family can easily live its life as the Chevy Impala (sedan), Chevy Nomad (wagon), and Chevy El Camino (truck thingy).
And Chevy Solstice has a nice ring to it.
Chevy Vibe would also be a nice addition as well.

Pontiac has limited global presence as it is, though it does fairly well in Canada. There’s no reason why Chevy can’t take it over in the marketplace.

I see no credible reason for Pontiac to soldier on.

[b4z]

You're on a roll tonight.

[2648562]

I won't argue with you one bit. It could be saved, but it won't be by the guys running GM now. They need to wait until they confess their sales have royally tanked, they bet wrong on just about everything (including their turnaround plan), and all the other bad news I can't even imagine is coming has been announced in the very near future.

[mbukukanyau]

closing it makes no sense. GM needs every sale it can get. And no where has anyone said pontiac is unprofitable

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by 2648562

I won't argue with you one bit. It could be saved, but it won't be by the guys running GM now. They need to wait until they confess their sales have royally tanked, they bet wrong on just about everything (including their turnaround plan), and all the other bad news I can't even imagine is coming has been announced in the very near future.

Yes. It could be saved. But cars like Torrent? Wave/G4(3)? Grand Prix? They have no place.
GM says CAFE is going to kill the performance car?

Sorry. You can make performance, fun to drive cars without V8's. It might rile people up, but it can be done.

What is most important is GM stick to the performance image of Pontiac; otherwise, it is no better than a Chevy. And at this point, I'd rather GM spend its time improving Chevy as the core brand of GM than dicking around with Pontiac giving it stupid product.

Originally Posted by mbukukanyau

closing it makes no sense. GM needs every sale it can get. And no where has anyone said pontiac is unprofitable

Giving Pontiac rebadged Chevys is worse.
Kill Pontiac.
Make Chevy better and improve, revamp, and rework its image.

[logansowner]

I can agree with this. They want to tell everyone they can't close because then GM won't have a performance brand..yea...no Torrent..oh the humanity.

I'm tellin yea, Buick, Caddy Chevy. Saab can remain an out of NA brand. Saturn is entirely redundant.

The Solstice could be a Chevy. The G8 could be an Impala.

It doesn't need to be complicated, but GM wants to make it that way.

[goblue]

In order to save Pontiac, GM would have to commit to fully leveraging Holden across the board, and unfortunately the exchange rate isn't there. So - they'd have to close Australian plants and move work to the US. but even then, shipping costs are so high now it still might not make a profit.

Bottom line? Either make a credible, RWD performance brand or kill it.

[logansowner]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Yes. It could be saved. But cars like Torrent? Wave/G4(3)? Grand Prix? They have no place.
GM says CAFE is going to kill the performance car?

Sorry. You can make performance, fun to drive cars without V8's. It might rile people up, but it can be done.

What is most important is GM stick to the performance image of Pontiac; otherwise, it is no better than a Chevy. And at this point, I'd rather GM spend its time improving Chevy as the core brand of GM than dicking around with Pontiac giving it stupid product.

Exactly! fun doesnt have to be big and super fast. A Honda Prelude (newer ones) is very fun, a Miata is more fun than a Solstice, it is slower, but it's more flickable. The new Miata has started to deviate from what it should be, but it's still better than a Solstice to drive. Small and flickable is fun.

That's why I have a CBR600 instead of a 1000. The 100 is faster, but much less fun.

[jasaero]

Killing pontiac is really a tough thing to pull off without hitting the bottom line really hard.

That is what I am not getting about this latest PBG death rumor. Would make more sense to kill Saturn as they don't hardly sell any cars anyhow and have a worse brand recognision problem than GMC or Pontiac. Really I think outside the Enclave Buick has worse problems that Pontiac or GMC, but even it isn't as hosed as Saturn. The ONLY thing saturn has going for them is their primarily setup as a retail only brand so they might make a bit more on each vehicle, but the volume is so much lower they still fail.

[samkung]

Hey mgescuro how come you are not working for GM

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by jasaero

Killing pontiac is really a tough thing to pull off without hitting the bottom line really hard.

That is what I am not getting about this latest PBG death rumor. Would make more sense to kill Saturn as they don't hardly sell any cars anyhow and have a worse brand recognision problem than GMC or Pontiac. Really I think outside the Enclave Buick has worse problems that Pontiac or GMC, but even it isn't as hosed as Saturn. The ONLY thing saturn has going for them is their primarily setup as a retail only brand so they might make a bit more on each vehicle, but the volume is so much lower they still fail.

The only reason to keep Saturn alive is the fact that it has the ability to attract and win over an entire generation of buyers that GM has managed to alienate over the past 20-30 years.

Over that period of time, more and more people have become more accustomed to tighter driving cars, more aggressive designs, technology, etc. In effect, European designs.

There will always be a certain proportion of the US that will always buy a "true" American car, American nameplate, American design. But there is now a growing number of people who don't want that, and want a more sophisticated look, design, and driving experience.

And that's where Saturn comes in.

Saturn needs to expand its dealership base. GM needs to market heavily on the coasts, which has become synonymous to a beachhead for imports the past 20-30 years. Saturn needs to be pure European. And it needs to be distanced from Chevrolet. It needs to be the anti-Chevrolet. Complete with famous Saturn customer service.

That in and of itself is Saturn's advantage in this market.

It is GM's fault for not recognizing it!!

Originally Posted by samkung

Hey mgescuro how come you are not working for GM

Because they don't have a satellite office in San Francisco.

[jasaero]

I have nothing agains slowly phasing out Pontiacs improper products in the US to focus on performance models. The problem is that the smaller and more performance oriented vehicles for Pontiac would probably be a ways off so they would have to survive with the Sky and G8 for some time.

It's going to be really tough though to transition 400,000 to Chevy and retain most of the customers. The rebadge customers would transition fine, but I am not sure the styling changes required to make the G8 and Impala and the Solstice a ?? would be good on their sales. And although us enthusiasts don't like the G6 it is seeing sales increases this year far better than the Aura and tends to sell at 3X the quantity of the aura. Many are fleet, but I would bet it outsells the Aura by near double.

[2648562]

^^ALL good points. I agree with you so much I can't remember what all you said. I never was one to jump on the Pontiac must be all rear wheel drive bandwagon. A V8 doesn't necessarily equal fun. Mazda didn't need rear wheel drive V8s to take Pontiac's demographic, but they did. The new has worn off the Solstice and the Vibe would probably sell three times as strong with a bowtie on it. I'm sure GM could find a home for the G8 somewhere else. Again, all good points.

Kind of off topic, but my dad had bought a new Grand Prix when they first came out. I was actually pretty excited about it. He knew better, but he still "asked" that I go easy on it. Thing was after two minutes of driving it, I knew it was shut a poor joke of a car to drive I couldn't even bring myself to abuse it. Almost everything about it looked right at the time, but it was just awful to drive and awful to sit in. His next car? Acura R something or other. He and I both abused it. My step mom abused it into a tree.

6/08: Years after the Grand Prix should've been killed my neighbor rolls in with a brand new one. Only his has HUBCAPS on it. That pretty much says it all about Pontiac and performance.

[2648562]

Originally Posted by logansowner

I can agree with this. They want to tell everyone they can't close because then GM won't have a performance brand..yea...no Torrent..oh the humanity.

That could be expanded a little more, but it's still funny as hell.

[samkung]

From what i see, GM will have
Chevy - Global style
Saturn - Euro Style
Buick - Chinese design with American heritage
Cadillac - American Luxury for the world =D