Pontiac, Buick & Saturn = One Amazing Brand!

[cincygoblue]

That plan would never work, and here's why:

Once you kill a "look" or a "brand image", there are a certain number of customers you will lose. Some people who are interested in a Buick (like an Enclave or Lucerne in particular) will never buy a Pontiac. They won't like the split-kidney grille or the performance image or the tighter suspension. People interested in a Pontiac won't go for a Buick for the same reason. Saturn, same thing. So let's say you lose half your Pontiac customers, half your Buick customers and half your Saturn customers. Now your marketshare is 15% instead of 22%. Now you have to close another 6 assembly plants, another 6 stamping plants, a couple transmission plants, engine plants, etc.

Even by doing all that, you still have tons of fixed costs that have to be offset by sales. Plus you have dealers either suing GM for lack of support or have GM paying them off to go out of business. And GM has no cash for either of these things. Plus, you also have suppliers suing GM for lack of volumes, with the lower marketshare.

Sure, GM has high-marketshares on the other continents, but those shares are in the 10-15% range at best. If GM want's to be that small, they aren't going to do it in a year or 2. It'd take decades, and I don't think GM can afford to be that small with the # of retirees and employees they currently have.

And beyond that, Pontiac has a certain position in the market. GM has to get away from things like the G5 with them, and stick with things like a Solstice and G8. Buick has a certain position in the market. GM needs to get away from things like the Lacrosse, and become more like a domestic Lexus as GM has stated. Saturn people like the Saturn experience. You think those customers are ever going to a Pontiac dealer? Not likely.

GM did the right thing with combining Buick, Pontiac and GMC. They just need to avoid things like the Outlook, G5, Lacrosse, Torrent, etc. 3 cars for Buick, 3 cars for Pontiac, 1 large crossover for one of them, and some trucks/utes for GMC. Killing Saturn dealers would be dumb. Killing GMC eliminates a couple 100,000 sales. Getting that small for no benefit is ridiculous. I don't see the advantage to your plan. GM can stop the overlaps as constructed. Saturn tried to move upscale too fast, just like Chrysler brand. It'll take another 10 years, but they can get there, especially if they continue to mimic Opel (but with some American switchgear and decent options please).

I totally disagree with killing any more brands. Even Saab should do well, paired with Cadillac here. And Hummer should stay small, but get more efficienct.

[CadiEldo67]

Originally Posted by spidge

... there isn't much reason for Pontiac as a division with only two RWD cars. The G8 and Solstice could be at home in the Chevrolet lineup.

And suddenly I disagreed with you. With the lack of GMC, Saturn (sold as a "Prius" hybrid brand, as you stated), Buick, Saab and Hummer, it leaves Chevy, Pontiac, Cadillac. Having only 3 brands would allow GM to have 3 full lineups, of better cars.

Chevy, as is.
Pontiac: Uplevel Chevy
Cadillac: Luxury

GMC is heavy duty trucks, paired with Chevy dealers
Saturn is hybrid
Buick is Luxury in China, only, they can't say they are killing the brand, they are just pulling it out of the US, so would GM have to pay as much as with Oldsmobile?

[DuSpinnst]

Change Saturn into Opel, re-brand the stores and the cars. Don't change the dealer network. Take the smaller Saab network, buy out the dealers and combine Saab with the "new" Opel dealers (Canada already does this). There you have your "European Channel."

Take BPG, and par down the model line. No shared platforms between them, that means if Buick gets an Epsilon Pontiac doesn't.

Then make Cadillac and Chevy individual channels, and dump Hummer. If you MUST keep Hummer par it down to two models (H3 and H4) and sell them next to Pontiac Buick GMC, also that would mean you'd kill the small pickup/SUV of GMC.

That way you'd have 4 healthy sales channels.

Chevy - Volume
Pontiac/Buick/GMC/Hummer - People who don't want a Chevy
Opel/Saab - European Imports
Cadillac - Luxury

[HVM]

Dont´t turn Opel into Saturn, but into Pontiac. This plus the Holden sourced G8 model range will turn Pontiac into the volume leader within P-B-G. Then you don´t need to warry about a GMC volume much. So you will have a known brand with lots of dealers to chase Mazda, Subaru and such. Well then you can starve Saturn to death. For example use the Insignia to be the next G6 and leave Saturn current EPI I Aura.

Sell Hummer.

Sell Saab.

In the end you will end up with three channels:
Chevy
B-P-G in the middle
Caddy

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by Ming

Clearly some brand cutting beyond Hummer must and will happen. It would make sense to combine Saturn with Pontiac and Buick, and let Chevrolet take on the full marketing mantle of trucks. There are more than enough Chevy dealerships out there t absorb GMC truck sales. If some GMC fans like the "look" of GMC trucks better (because there sure wasn't much else to be a fan of), then make sure the new Chevy trucks integrate the best of GMC truck looks.

A few people might rather see GM go down in flames on principle rather than lose their favorite brand.

I think a merging of sub brands under one header might be interesting.

In other words, Pontiac-Buick-Saturn would be SUB-BRANDS of new Brand Name X, like Scion in Toyota dealerships. BPG would be more than an oft-ignored "channel" it would be a brand.

All Pontiac, Buick and Saturn stand alone dealers would be forced to absorb all 3 sub brands and change their signs to reflect this.

For this Brand Name X, GM might extrapolate on their name like BP is now advertised as "Beyond" - not British - Petroleum. General Motors sounds so....generic.

Greater Momentum...something like that.

"Pontiac, Buick and Saturn are joining forces...

Head to your nearest Greater Momentum dealership for your Pontiac, Saturn, and Buick brands!"

First let’s look at the truck market and what it will be in the future – not much different than the last 50 years.

The full size truck market in the U.S. is driven mainly by the construction/farm/housing/ranch/service market and the future truck market will rebound along with the construction/farm/housing/ranch/service market with 80% of full size trucks being used in one of three ways:

The construction/farm/housing/ranch/service market (including government and private business use)
Weekend recreational use (towing/hauling)
Occasional utility vehicle (runs to nursery/home improvement)

Trucks used in the construction/farm/housing/ranch/service market will be used often and replaced on a regular basis (unless the housing market implodes).

Trucks used for Recreational or Utility uses will be driven more on a temporary (2nd car) basis and not build up many miles and be purchased by individuals with higher discretionary income (BPG buyers).

The remaining 20% will be used for a variety of uses and will be used at near normal mileage rates.

Now GMC sells about 450,000 units at say an average $28K with a $7K profit per unit resulting in $12,600,000,000 in annual revenue generating $3,150,000,000 in profits and if GMC is cut all of this will be lost from either the 40 – 60 % of GMC buyers going to Toyota, Dodge or Ford and the Buick/Pontiac owners who will do likewise, not to mention to buyers GM will never see because many of them will think GM is shutting down since they think GMC stands for General Motors Corporation (I know it does not so save the posts).

Cut GMC you cut GM – No GMC = No GM

If you are convinced cutting GMC is a good idea, go to every BPG dealer combination that maybe in your area and ask the owner “If they would like to see GMC dropped”. Let me know what they say.

BPG dealers will continue to sell a lot of GMC trucks and SUV’s to it’s customers because they are older and have more discretionary income and in many cases will be selling personal use cars/SUV’s to the contractors, farmers, ranchers and small business owners who bought their GMC work trucks there. The truck sales and “supplemental” car sales they generate constitute a large portion of the actual profit BPG dealers make and they do not want to see GMC go away. Why would you replace a truck brand with a car brand, especially when this post is about too many brands – how many car brands do you need?

It is easy to justify two truck brands (one low end and one high end) and GMC has been pulling it’s weight and many have posted “make Chevy Trucks look like GMC’s”. Huh????!!!???

Isn’t that the same as keeping GMC?

This is not 1988 when Ford and GM were the only real players in the Full Size truck market, it is 2008 where Dodge and Toyota are viable players with attractive car lines complementing them, you cut GMC only if you are happy with 450,000 to 1,000,000 fewer annual sales and $3.2 Billion less in profits.

On top of that, look at how Toyota is responding - it cut truck production (predictable and logical), then it introduced a 500+ HP Tundra!

Sounds like they think the full size truck market will return to historical average sales levels when the housing market disaster plays out - and will be waiting to sell Tundras to anyone who wants one.

[FBODYRULES]

I think the enclave is the start of a new Buick, just keep on that way and Buick will do well,
its early days, give it a chance!
cant loose Buick man, its American auto history!

Buick has its own style that is different from any other brand in the world, its been copied lots even though people dont realize it
and same with pontiac.

I think scrap saturn and restyle some saturn products as Buicks and pontiacs if need be,
but restyle them well!

just got to beat toyota at this game thats all, as an outsider I can not believe a japaness brand does so well in america, what kind of freaks buy them? I would NEVER buy one no matter what !

[Geotpf]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

For now........

Toyota did not invest in Isuzu just for the Diesel tech, they have looooonnng range plans for it (Toyota's GMC???).

If gas prices stay high (and /or when China and India enter the U.S. market) Daihatsu will be back in the U.S. in a hurry.

Toyota acts quietly, quickly and effectively (but in plain sight) - thought GM would have learned this by now.

Neither Diahatsu nor Isuzu (ignoring delivery trucks) will ever be back in the US. If a Diahatsu-based car comes to the US, it will be badged as a Toyota or a Scion. Isuzu's last products in the US were all GM rebadges. Their international lineup (again ignoring big delivery trucks) are all pickups, which can't be imported into the US due to the chicken tax. The Toyota badge is much more valuable in the public's mind than Isuzu's; there's absolutely no reason to reintroduce it here.

Prius may become a seperate badge in the future, but it will be like Scion-it won't have any seperate dealers, just sub-areas of existing Toyota dealers.

The end result is that Toyota will still only have two seperate dealer networks (Toyota-Scion-Prius and Lexus). There's also Subaru, I suppose, although including that in Toyota's total would be like including Mazda in Ford's.

[CadiEldo67]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

If you are convinced cutting GMC is a good idea, go to every BPG dealer combination that maybe in your area and ask the owner “If they would like to see GMC dropped”. Let me know what they say.

I think that if Pontiac - Buick had some good products, besides the Enclave, Solstice and G8, then the dealers wouldn't need to sell the life out of every GMC. That is basically all the profit they make, well, up until recently. Why else would they cry out for a lame, boring (sorry, I know some people actually like the G5, I do, kinda) G5, when what they really should have had was a bold Sunfire replacement.


And another thing, all this GMT-900 business about putting it on hold. Am I missing something, or is this the platform that is already in use? I think they are talking about the evolution of the GMT-900. An article stated that the platform was probably over engineered, and there is really no need to worry about updating it for many years longer than GM was hoping to.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

Change Saturn into Opel, re-brand the stores and the cars. Don't change the dealer network. Take the smaller Saab network, buy out the dealers and combine Saab with the "new" Opel dealers (Canada already does this). There you have your "European Channel."

Take BPG, and par down the model line. No shared platforms between them, that means if Buick gets an Epsilon Pontiac doesn't.

Then make Cadillac and Chevy individual channels, and dump Hummer. If you MUST keep Hummer par it down to two models (H3 and H4) and sell them next to Pontiac Buick GMC, also that would mean you'd kill the small pickup/SUV of GMC.

That way you'd have 4 healthy sales channels.

Chevy - Volume
Pontiac/Buick/GMC/Hummer - People who don't want a Chevy
Opel/Saab - European Imports
Cadillac - Luxury

This plan could work and does address problems GM has with Saturn and SAAB in the U.S. market, putting them together is similar to the European market so however GM positions Opel and SAAB models in relation to each other in Europe the same would apply here.

The Aura's disappointing sales and inability to get over the 5.000 unit a month mark is disturbing - it should routinely be over 10,000 units/month by now even with a low dealer count. Other than a lack of a rear seat armrest (which should not keep it from the 10K mark) the Aura is as competitive as any other mid-size offering.

My only reservation is that building the Opel brand in the U.S. will cost money I am not sure GM has, on the other hand it was going to have to spend money to redefine Saturn anyway. It will cost more to build the Opel brand but GM can save some money not "Saturnizing" Opels (not that this savings will huge, but every dollar helps.)

GM can use the "Opel by Saturn" line (yes it is a bit cheesy) to temper loyal Saturn fans opposition and would still have the option of using the Saturn name for a "new GEO" line of small cars at Chevy dealers.

[camaro_freak]

Originally Posted by GM_Guy81

What in the WORLD are you talking about? You honestly do not like the design of those Buicks in the pictures? You're upset because you think those designs come from China? And you would rather see Buick killed off than use those vehicles? That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on here. Do you prefer the current LaCrosse and Lucerne that have been total sales disasters? I honestly do not understand your position. Those new designs look amazing and could totally reinvigorate Buick. Its not like they will be built in China and imported here.

These cars have VERY LITTLE design cues from the Enclave and the Velite styling we've seen in the past besides the grill and the Riviera didn't even have that much Buick-ness in it. I don't like these designs.. so sue me. I think they could have done better.

I'd rather see more money put into the brand for NA markets than a Communist country where GM thinks they can pawn the brand as something new and excited. It makes me sick GM cares more for a brand half way around the word then right here on its own soil.

They squandered their chances here with one of the oldest still in business brands/heritage and instead of fixing the damage, they are starting over in China.

[CadiEldo67]

Originally Posted by HVM

Don't turn Opel into Saturn, but into Pontiac. This plus the Holden sourced G8 model range will turn Pontiac into the volume leader within P-B-G. Then you don't need to worry about a GMC volume much. So you will have a known brand with lots of dealers to chase Mazda, Subaru and such. Well then you can starve Saturn to death. For example use the Insignia to be the next G6 and leave Saturn current Epsilon I Aura.

Sell Hummer.

Sell Saab.

In the end you will end up with three channels:
Chevy
B-P-G in the middle
Caddy

This actually sounds good. I believe that Saturn would make a better "Green" brand, and it helps that it was always known for being frugal. I can't understand how these auto companies expect to change a brand into something that it wasn't, and isn't overnight. Another option for Saturn would be to have it be fleet only, so that the rest of the brands aren't bothered with lower resale values.

Chevy: for the masses
Buick:entry level luxury, but not over the top luxury, its the next step after Chevy
Pontiac: entry level performance, with sporty intentions
GMC: truly professional grade
Cadillac:flagship brand of GM

[RevGTO]

Originally Posted by cincygoblue

GM did the right thing with combining Buick, Pontiac and GMC.
I totally disagree with killing any more brands. Even Saab should do well, paired with Cadillac here. And Hummer should stay small, but get more efficienct.

It's amazing how many otherwise intelligent people believe that GM's problems can be solved by eliminating divisions. We all know about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. All the talk of eliminating GM brands only goes one step further by suggesting that throwing some overboard will save the ship. Ridiculous. At least it offers the comforting illusion that SOMETHING can be done.

[jkr2106]

Originally Posted by RevGTO

It's amazing how many otherwise intelligent people believe that GM's problems can be solved by eliminating divisions. We all know about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. All the talk of eliminating GM brands only goes one step further by suggesting that throwing some overboard will save the ship.

YES!!! This guy gets it, lol!

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by FBODYRULES

I think the enclave is the start of a new Buick, just keep on that way and Buick will do well,
its early days, give it a chance!
cant loose Buick man, its American auto history!

Buick has its own style that is different from any other brand in the world, its been copied lots even though people dont realize it
and same with pontiac.

I think scrap saturn and restyle some saturn products as Buicks and pontiacs if need be,
but restyle them well!

just got to beat toyota at this game thats all, as an outsider I can not believe a japaness brand does so well in america, what kind of freaks buy them? I would NEVER buy one no matter what !

Alot of people here have been brainwashed in thinking that Toyota is good. Toyota & Wal-Mart I consider to be 2 of the worlds most evil companies. These companies & their locations should be bombed & their cash in banks drained or frozen forever!

[LeSabre]

I voted for "They are doing alright. Cut none of them".
BUT if one was cut, I'd go w/Chevrolet! I know alot of you would disagree w/this & think that I'm crazy for even saying this but I don't care. I am not a Chevy kind of guy.
I understand their purpose as the bread & butter brand which in a sense = boring, but not always.