Pontiac, Buick & Saturn = One Amazing Brand!

[newdude]

Originally Posted by mbukukanyau

Have you all lost your minds?

How could anyone in their right minds justify killing this? These automobiles have passion in design.. not your cookie cutter designs..

oh heck yes!!!! those three cars right there make me want to own one of ech. buick should not go. if any more do, i say saturn or pontiac. then, buick could get the solstice and make a small premium sports converible, then have the vue as a mini enclave, then gm could get rid of the gmc terrain. thats what i say. making one amazing brand to me would just be stupid. if buicks getting that next lacrosse, what would be the point in makjing it out of an existing aussie car??

[Smoothcat]

First off, I apologize if some of my comments are redundant with what others have posted, I haven't read every response in this thread.

I have and continue to believe that if more people had exposure to the Saturn brand, sales would be better. Now understand that I am not saying they would be off the charts, but there are a lot of people from small towns that are an hour if not more away from the nearest Saturn dealer. That certainly makes a difference. Giving Saturn a presence in most of these areas at the local BPG dealership would be a big plus.

That being said, even as a fan of the Saturn brand I think it may be time for it to go. It's not that I don't love the Opel products - I do. I just believe the wrong decision was made as to where to take the brand. It should have been made a super "green" brand, with nothing bigger than the ION (or maybe the VUE). Eventually the lineup could have been all-hybrid vehicles. Also, it would have been the perfect place to sell the "Triplets". Any kind of experimental green vehicle could have been a Saturn first. If all of this didn't take off, and the brand needed to be killed, these vehicles could just easily become Chevrolets. Instead, now we just have what is essentially an Oldsmobile replacement with fewer dealers and fewer sales.

If the Saturn brand is to go, I'd actually like to see Pontiac be the beneficiary. I'm not sure if it would work in the short-term, but how about a long-term plan of Pontiac being a combination of Opel and Holden? The lower end could have the Corsa, Astra, and Aura, all available in GXP versions to make them "deserving" of the Pontiac name (no laughing please). RWD vehicles could be the Solstice/Sky replacement, an Alpha-platform coupe, and the G8 lineup of vehicles. Sold in the same dealership as Buick, there is really no overlap if Buick trends even more upmarket. In this situation I'd probably just kill GMC, as I'm not sure the truck market will ever be the same anyway.

The only question mark left would be what to do with the remaining Saturn stores. Here is where GM could maybe be creative. How about an all-green store, selling a multitude of brands? You could find the Volt, other Chevy hybrids, new Chevy mini-cars, Pontiac hybrids, etc. What about give them to Saab, who has an even smaller market presence than Saturn? Or maybe a "premium" GM store, selling a mixture of Cadillac and Saab? This would be especially good if the local Caddy dealership is shared with Chevy (like in my hometown). I know there are PLENTY of problems with this scenario in buying out dealers or whatever, but I'll leave that up to GM. I'm just brainstorming.

GM has a lot of decisions to make in the very near-future. I hope they choose wisely, because I do NOT want to see them fade away.

[Geotpf]

GM should cut or sell Saab (North America only; it probably should stay in Europe and some other markets), Hummer, and Saturn. That would leave GM with Buick/Pontiac/GMC, Chevy, and Caddy. BPG is a bit of an odd duck, but it does have a viable market position (in general, somewhere between Chevy and Caddy), and lots of sales and lots of dealers.

[goblue]

Originally Posted by drew770

Yes, I agree that GM's problems are complicated but Toyota debuted the Prius during low gas prices. Yearly they continued to upgrade the vehicle and it's hybrid technology.
Now Toyota is in a sweet spot.
Did Toyota look into a crystal ball for the future and figured that gas prices was going to go through the roof? No.
Toyota simply believed in the hybrid technology and it's future.
GM doesn't seem willing to do that and that why they are yet again behind the powercurve and is losing money.
The Volt is a reaction to the Prius and now GM is gambling the house to get it to market.

Toyota did it with someone else's money, at a time when they were rolling in it. GM's choice would have been - build a Prius and put GMT 900 on hold. Well, thats an easy decision right, gas will get expensive someday, problem is, putting 900 on hold puts you deeper in the red at a time when you could sell a lot of them and keep paying healthcare / UAW wages averting a strike. My how we forget history - GM built the EV1 when gas was $1 a gallon, and they got burned - not having the resources to continue what was obviously a fantastic idea. You all think GM is a bunch of idiots - have you ever thought they are smart people trying to wrestle with a near impossible problem? How to outdo your competitors with your costs being significantly higher. Any MBA will tell you thats a very hard place to be in.

This is very complicated and GM has an albatross chained to itself. I can come up with dream lineups that would sell better than what GM has now too, it's nothing special. What I can't figure out is where to find the money to do it, and how to get my fellow americans to consider them fast enough to justify the investment in a timely fashion when their japanese appliance served them well.

[JoeT]

Originally Posted by Ming

Clearly some brand cutting beyond Hummer must and will happen. It would make sense to combine Saturn with Pontiac and Buick, and let Chevrolet take on the full marketing mantle of trucks. There are more than enough Chevy dealerships out there t absorb GMC truck sales. If some GMC fans like the "look" of GMC trucks better (because there sure wasn't much else to be a fan of), then make sure the new Chevy trucks integrate the best of GMC truck looks.

A few people might rather see GM go down in flames on principle rather than lose their favorite brand.

I think a merging of sub brands under one header might be interesting.

In other words, Pontiac-Buick-Saturn would be SUB-BRANDS of new Brand Name X, like Scion in Toyota dealerships. BPG would be more than an oft-ignored "channel" it would be a brand.

All Pontiac, Buick and Saturn stand alone dealers would be forced to absorb all 3 sub brands and change their signs to reflect this.

For this Brand Name X, GM might extrapolate on their name like BP is now advertised as "Beyond" - not British - Petroleum. General Motors sounds so....generic.

Greater Momentum...something like that.

"Pontiac, Buick and Saturn are joining forces...

Head to your nearest Greater Momentum dealership for your Pontiac, Saturn, and Buick brands!"

Greater Momentum & Consolidation is what they need.

[benroethig]

Originally Posted by Geotpf

GM should cut or sell Saab (North America only; it probably should stay in Europe and some other markets), Hummer, and Saturn. That would leave GM with Buick/Pontiac/GMC, Chevy, and Caddy. BPG is a bit of an odd duck, but it does have a viable market position (in general, somewhere between Chevy and Caddy), and lots of sales and lots of dealers.

Or they could actually put some effort into the brand like Ford does with Volvo.

[newdude]

Originally Posted by Smoothcat

First off, I apologize if some of my comments are redundant with what others have posted, I haven't read every response in this thread.

I have and continue to believe that if more people had exposure to the Saturn brand, sales would be better. Now understand that I am not saying they would be off the charts, but there are a lot of people from small towns that are an hour if not more away from the nearest Saturn dealer. That certainly makes a difference. Giving Saturn a presence in most of these areas at the local BPG dealership would be a big plus.

That being said, even as a fan of the Saturn brand I think it may be time for it to go. It's not that I don't love the Opel products - I do. I just believe the wrong decision was made as to where to take the brand. It should have been made a super "green" brand, with nothing bigger than the ION (or maybe the VUE). Eventually the lineup could have been all-hybrid vehicles. Also, it would have been the perfect place to sell the "Triplets". Any kind of experimental green vehicle could have been a Saturn first. If all of this didn't take off, and the brand needed to be killed, these vehicles could just easily become Chevrolets. Instead, now we just have what is essentially an Oldsmobile replacement with fewer dealers and fewer sales.

If the Saturn brand is to go, I'd actually like to see Pontiac be the beneficiary. I'm not sure if it would work in the short-term, but how about a long-term plan of Pontiac being a combination of Opel and Holden? The lower end could have the Corsa, Astra, and Aura, all available in GXP versions to make them "deserving" of the Pontiac name (no laughing please). RWD vehicles could be the Solstice/Sky replacement, an Alpha-platform coupe, and the G8 lineup of vehicles. Sold in the same dealership as Buick, there is really no overlap if Buick trends even more upmarket. In this situation I'd probably just kill GMC, as I'm not sure the truck market will ever be the same anyway.

The only question mark left would be what to do with the remaining Saturn stores. Here is where GM could maybe be creative. How about a an all-green store, selling a multitude of brands? You could find the Volt, other Chevy hybrids, new Chevy mini-cars, Pontiac hybrids, etc. What about give them to Saab, who has an even smaller market presence than Saturn? Or maybe a "premium" GM store, selling a mixture of Cadillac and Saab? This would be especially good if the local Caddy dealership is shared with Chevy (like in my hometown). I know there are PLENTY of problems with this scenario in buying out dealers or whatever, but I'll leave that up to GM. I'm just brainstorming.

GM has a lot of decisions to make in the very near-future. I hope they choose wisely, because I do NOT want to see them fade away.

i like the way you think...

[SierraGS]

You do not cut any brands, you reduce the models each brand sells and get the right mix for each brand.

Why?

Toyota could have at least 7 brands in the U.S. market over the next few years

Toyota
Scion
Lexus
Subaru
Isuzu
Daihatsu
Prius (Hybrids only)

Meanwhile GM will be cut, cut, cut, cut, cutting its way into oblivion.

Just look at how Toyota handled the drop in Truck sales:

It dropped production but in place of closing plants and generating negative media attention, Toyota announced it would increase the hot selling Camry production at the Tundra truck plant making Toyota look “environmentally responsible” even though they maintain production of high margin trucks.

Then it announce a 500 HP Tundra “Iron Man” Truck!!!

GM was trying to get great news about the Volt out, but it was overshadowed by plant closing announcements, when GM should have said the same as Toyota – we are slowing truck production at the Oshawa and installing equipment to ramp up production of the hot selling Malibu. This would have kept morale high at one of GM’s most productive plants (productivity/quality) avoiding a bad situation that is far from over.

How does GM “stand and fight”?

Saturn becomes GM’s Scion brand and is sold in select Chevrolet dealers (and existing Saturn dealers) as small fuel efficient fun to drive cars/SUV’s, this is in line with recent posts calling for the GEO brand to return - why recreate yet another brand when there is one that needs "redirected" so it can be built up later.

HUMMER becomes a “floating” brand open to any qualifying GM dealer that is willing to provide the proper support, and as with Saturn all current HUMMER dealers remain.

Opel models will be distributed in non-European markets throughout GM brands as follows.

Opel model (Global (except Europe) Brand Model)
Agila ------ Saturn Agila
Tigra –Open- (maybe a Buick)
Corsa 3D/5D ------ Chevrolet Corsa
Calibra ----- Buick Skyhawk (U.S. and China)
Astra Twin-Top----- Buick Skyhawk HTC (U.S. and China)
Astra 3D/5D----- SAAB 9-3
Astra 4D -------- Buick Skylark (U.S. and China)
Astra Estate ------Buick Skylark Estate (U.S. and China)
Insignia 2D -------Buick Regal Coupe(U.S. and China)
Insignia 4D -------Buick Regal Sedan(U.S. and China)
Insignia 5D------ Chevrolet Malibu MAXX
Insignia Estate ----Saturn Aura Avant

Montana ------ Saturn Montana
Meriva ------ Saturn Meriva
Combo------ Chevrolet Combo
Antara------ Saturn VUE (as is)
Zafira------ Saturn Zafira

Buick :
Skyhawk (U.S. and China)
Skyhawk HTC (U.S. and China)
Skylark 4D(U.S. and China)
Skylark Estate (U.S. and China)
Regal Coupe(U.S. and China)
Regal Sedan(U.S. and China)
Invicta (replaces LaCrosse and Lucerne)
Buick Gran Sport Hard Top Convertible (CTS based - U.S. and China)
Buick Gran Sport Sedan (CTS based - U.S. and China)
Buick Park Ave (U.S. and China)

GMC :
Terrain
Jimmy 2D (H4 based) (Sold in Australia as Holden Jimmy – China/Europe as GMC Jimmy)
Jimmy 4D (H3 based) (Sold in Australia as Holden Jimmy – China/ Europe as GMC Jimmy)
X-Treme (Urban Buggy) (Sold in Australia as Holden X-Treme – China/ Europe as GMC X-Treme)
Canyon (Alpha Based Pickup) (Sold in Australia as Holden Canyon – China/ Europe as GMC Canyon)
Envoy (Alpha Based SUV) (Sold in Australia as Holden Envoy – China/ Europe as GMC Envoy)
Acadia (Sold in Australia as Holden Acadia – China/ Europe as GMC Acadia)
Denali XT (Extended LWB Zeta) (Sold in Australia as Holden Cross8 – China/ Europe as GMC Denali)
Sierra
Sierra HD
Safari (Zeta based SUV with air adjustable suspension like Q7/Tourang)
Yukon Denali trim only
Yukon XL Denali trim only

HUMMER
H4 – 2D Wrangler Competitor
H3 – 4D Wrangler Competitor
H5 – (LR3 competitor Alpha based SUV with air adjustable suspension like Q7/Tourang)

Pontiac:
Barina (Coupe/Hatch version (Scion tC) of Corsa)
Vibe
Solstice
Firebird (Alpha)
Grand Prix (Alpha) (Holden Torana)
GTO (Holden Monaro)
G8 (Holden Commodore)
G8 Estate (Holden Commodore Estate)
G8 ST (Holden Ute)

SAAB
9-1
9-3
9-5
9-4X

Saturn
Matiz
Beat
Agila
Groove
Aura Avant
Sky
Montana Pickup
Trax
Meriva
VUE
Zafira

Chevy (additions only)
Corsa
Monza 3D (Alpha Wagon – Nomad Concept)
Monte Carlo (Alpha Coupe)
Camaro
Combo

Cadillac (additions/changes)
BTS (Alpha Sedan)
SRX (Alpha based X5)
Evoq (Zeta based Range Rover)
SLS (Zeta LWB)
Sixteen (Extended LWB Zeta)

Opel/Vauxhall
Same as today in Europe

Holden
Why should Holden sell a mixed bag of Daewoo/Opel models going forward?

Opel models can be built in lower cost areas than Western Europe and will have to be once GM gets all models on common architectures, so GM needs to figure out which models sell in Australia/New Zealand and revise the Holden line to these vehicles eliminating the need for a “lower end” brand.

[CJ Thunder]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Another poll with an incomplete option list

GM is not doing fine... but cutting another division will only make things worse...

Amen, stapling a stomach will only help if you stop eating ****.

[kenman923]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

You do not cut any brands, you reduce the models each brand sells and get the right mix for each brand.

Why?

Toyota could have at least 7 brands in the U.S. market over the next few years

Toyota
Scion
Lexus
Subaru
Isuzu
Daihatsu
Prius (Hybrids only)

Isuzus are no longer being sold in the U.S. Daihatsu has been out of the U.S. market for over 10 years.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by kenman923

Isuzus are no longer being sold in the U.S. Daihatsu has been out of the U.S. market for over 10 years.

For now........

Toyota did not invest in Isuzu just for the Diesel tech, they have looooonnng range plans for it (Toyota's GMC???).

If gas prices stay high (and /or when China and India enter the U.S. market) Daihatsu will be back in the U.S. in a hurry.

Toyota acts quietly, quickly and effectively (but in plain sight) - thought GM would have learned this by now.

[spidge]

Originally Posted by CadiEldo67

Exactly, it would be like saying that Toyota is a luxury brand. (Scion - Toyota -Lexus) (Chevy - Pontiac - Cadillac)

First off, I really like the idea of Pontiac not being killed. This brand name has tons of potential, and I don't like the way its just being pushed to the side while some johnny come lately gets all the new products. Secondly, the structure that this editorial suggest would work perfectly. I read in a previous post that Pontiac is looked upon well overseas. If GM was to just have these three brands, they could all be global brands. In fact, I think that GM should keep Holden, Vauxhall, and Opel, but should lose Daewoo in place of Chevy. Really, the only way to get rid of these brands without cutting them, would be to turn GMC into a commercial grade brand, only. Saturn could be GM's rental car brand. Buick could fade away slowly, and go out with a bang, even though it would still be in China.

I think Daewoo cars are already known as Chevrolets in markets outside of S. Korea.

I always thought GMC should concentrate on medium- and heavy-duty trucks and buses, sort of like Freightliner for Mercedes-Benz. Let Chevrolet handle light-duty trucks, and crossovers.

Saturn, which gave us the EV1, and Green Line hybrids, could be like the "Prius" brand Toyota is considering. The brand name alone conveys a futuristic, cutting-edge technological outlook. The Volt, marketed through Saturn dealers, instead of Chevrolet, could probably better command a $40,000 price tag.

Buick should be in China, since they highly value the brand, and have great plans for its future, and without an Alpha, there isn't much reason for Pontiac as a division with only two RWD cars. The G8 and Solstice could be at home in the Chevrolet lineup. Nowadays, consumers are demanding more and more luxury items in mainstream vehicles, so as mainstream vehicles move upmarket (and luxury marques offer "downmarket" vehicles), middle-of-the-road divisions become redundant.

The theme of Chevrolet is affordability, and even the Corvette and upcoming Camaro are affordable compared to the competition. Having these halo vehicles in their lineups, some of that affordable performance should "trickle down" to their entry-level vehicles, AT LEAST in SS trim, rather than being exclusive to Pontiac. Performance isn't ONLY about fun, it also helps vehicles to handle road conditions and avoid accidents. Who DOESN'T want that in their car?

Cadillac can go up against BMW, Mercedes-Benz, et al.

[FireFox89]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Combine them all and call it Oakland.

Now that's old old school

[SAngelo]

I think they can find a way to do this without cutting a brand. Well Chevrolet should be the only brand to have a full lineup of vehicles from subcompacts to full size cars and trucks. Pontiac and Buick should be the Specialty brand. Pontiac needs just the G8 and GTO which will be Holdens and the Solstice and the G6 should only stay if it becomes rear wheel drive. We don't need the Firebird now we have the Camaro. Buick should have the Invicta(Lacrosse) Epsilon II, plus a rwd Holden like the Park Avenue which is geared towards luxury not sportiness like the G8 sister and the Enclave and thats it for both brands. As you can see most of these cars are Holdens which can be a savings because teh Budgets are over in Europe I assume. The GMC brand can stay with the Specialty's but it needs to be trimmed down in number but standout from Chevys.

Now Saturn can no longer be a standalone dealer, it has awesome vehicles but there are too few and its not recognized. Saturn would be the "European German brand" while Buick and Pontiac are the "specialty brands". Move Saturn into Chevrolet or Cadillac. In order to avoid overlap I am thinking maybe Cadillac. The Saturns are the Fwd cars while the Caddies are all rwd cars. One issue I see are the Epsilons, I can see why the Aura is on hold, we dont want too many Epsilons. Kill the G6 Epsilon because you have the Malibu and the Invicta (Lacrosse) will join it but I think will be slightly larger. That decision needs to be made. I would kill the Outlook, keep the Vue but reduce the weight, definitely bring us the new Astra but have many versions of it. hatch, coupe, sedan, redlines etc. The Sky also stays which I love and maybe have a minivan Lambda replace the SUV one (Outlook). Cadillac should have a small car (BLS, BTS ?), the CTS(sedan, coupe), the STS/DTS replacement, the XLR, the SRX, and the Escalade. You dont need a small one because it will be in the same dealership as the Vue.


GM should definitely try this set-up I think it may work. What do you all think of this ??

[chevydodgeguy]

Pontiac+Buick+Saturn= Oldsmobile and reason being is Oldsmobile offered models that were the same as some the Pontiac's and Buick's and even some of there smaller models were like some of the Saturn models. So I say if they combined all three of these divisions then call it Oldsmobile.