Pontiac, Buick & Saturn = One Amazing Brand!

[member12]

GM north America doesn't have too many brands.....what they have too much of is crappy products and lame re-badges. Everyone wants to shuffle the brands around...but the real truth is that a shuffle must be accompanied with a great product lineup.

Cars that shouldn't have ever existed: LaCrosse, Lucerne, G6, G5, Torrent, Outlook, Rainier, Rendevous, Ion....

In their place should have been fewer, better performing models.

Pontiac doesn't need 6 different models...it needs 3 or 4 really good ones. Buick doesn't need anything more than 3 really good, popular models. Saturn doesn't need a full sized SUV when they can dip into Opel for a minivan and sport compact. Pontiac doesn't need yet another "regular" sedan.

Dealership A
______________________
Pontiac:

The G8 and Solstice are the only two Pontiacs that deserve the badge. The G5 may have a future, but it needs wild styling, like that of the Mitsubishi Eclipse (not my kind of car, but it's popular and there's money to be made there). The only model that needs to be added to the Pontiac line is probably a G8 coupe.

The V6 G8 will take the place of the G6 and there is no need for a Torrent when GMC is in the same dealership.

Buick:

The Park Avenue is a must, but what's more obvious here is that the only really competative Buick is the Enclave. The new front drive Epsilon 2 sedan should be the smallest Buick. That leaves the Park Avenue, the front drive sedan, and the Enclave.

For now, that is all Buick needs. Those 3 models should generate more retail sales than the current 3 models.
Also, Buick is known for quiet, powerful powertrains. I think a 2 mode system paired up with the 3.6L DI engine should be standard in all uplevel Buicks. Four cylinder mileage from a 300 horsepower engine while offering quiet city driving should be right up the Buick driver's alley.

GMC

Canyon, Jimmy, Terrain, Acadia, Yukon, Sierra

A competative small truck and FJ cruiser style off road SUV (Jimmy) as well as the Terrain and Acadia crossovers, plus the Yukon and Sierra full sized trucks.

Also included are GM's medium duty line which is supposed to be run by International/Harvester/Navistar...whatever they are calling it this week.


That's enough for one dealership
__________________________________________________ ____________
Saturn:

Corsa (Agila goes to Chevy, Corsa goes to Saturn), Astra, Aura (sedan and wagon), Sky, Vue, and Zafira.

There is no need for the Outlook...Saturn (and GM) needs to offer a diverse group of smaller cars. Every Saturn is small enough to be powered by a 4 cylinder engine. Some can have optional V6 engines, and of course, hybrids should be offered.

Saturn is the only other GM division (other than Chevrolet) that is large enough to be a stand alone dealership.

__________________________________________________ __
Cadillac:

RWD BMW 3 series competitor, CTS, large RWD 7 series competitor, SRX, and Escalade
Cadillac seems to be on the right track for the most part by offering V series and coupes with the CTS, and a similar lineup should follow the large and small RWD Cadillacs.

XLR to be canceled. DTS to be canceled. Escalade to be based off of a performance RWD crossover chassis, not a full sized truck chassis.


Hummer:

H3, H3 SUT, H3 soft top.

No more than 3 mid sized trucks....very simple, very capable off road. Forget all the fancy goodies...get a Tahoe Z71 if you are into that. Think Land Rover Defender, but with 2 and four door models and a truck model. All Hummers are based off the same chassis and all can share powertrain and parts.
Hummer to be sold everywhere the Toyota Land Cruiser is sold.

__________________________________________________ __
Chevrolet:

Agila, Aveo, Beat, Cobalt, HHR, Malibu, Impala, Equinox, Traverse, Tahoe, Suburban, Silverado, Colorado, Camaro, Corvette, and Express

Chevrolet is the only full lineup at GM. Because of CAFE and rising demand for fuel efficient products, it needs a diverse offering of small, affordable cars. The Agila and Beat are essentially the same thing, except the Beat offers boxy styling and more interior room (like the Honda Element and Scion box). I hope that the new world Aveo and Cobalt are more competative than the current, but they fit the bill as traditional small sedans. The HHR remains on the Cobalt chassis and retains some kind of retro styling. Malibu should be a good sedan with good hybrid powertrains. The Impala needs to move to a stretched version of the G8's chassis....not as fancy as the Park Avenue but not as sporty as the G8 GT. The SS version should be a monster.

Diesel engines should be Chevrolet's "thing". Malibu, Impala, Silverado, Traverse, Tahoe, Suburban, Colorado should all offer diesel options. Trucks and RWD cars should offer small block V8s. Everything else should either be an ecotec 4 cylinder (turbo in some cases) or a gas V6.

____________________________________________


What's missing?

Saab. Because it sells it's own products, can be separated from GM easily and sold for more money than any other brand because it's not integrated. I'll leave that up to the "experts" at GMi to decide if this brand should be sold or kept. If kept, I recommend it being paired up with Cadillac/Hummer dealerships.

Saab has brought very little to the table for GM.

[Ming]

Clearly some brand cutting beyond Hummer must and will happen. It would make sense to combine Saturn with Pontiac and Buick, and let Chevrolet take on the full marketing mantle of trucks. There are more than enough Chevy dealerships out there t absorb GMC truck sales. If some GMC fans like the "look" of GMC trucks better (because there sure wasn't much else to be a fan of), then make sure the new Chevy trucks integrate the best of GMC truck looks.

A few people might rather see GM go down in flames on principle rather than lose their favorite brand.

I think a merging of sub brands under one header might be interesting.

In other words, Pontiac-Buick-Saturn would be SUB-BRANDS of new Brand Name X, like Scion in Toyota dealerships. BPG would be more than an oft-ignored "channel" it would be a brand.

All Pontiac, Buick and Saturn stand alone dealers would be forced to absorb all 3 sub brands and change their signs to reflect this.

For this Brand Name X, GM might extrapolate on their name like BP is now advertised as "Beyond" - not British - Petroleum. General Motors sounds so....generic.

Greater Momentum...something like that.

"Pontiac, Buick and Saturn are joining forces...

Head to your nearest Greater Momentum dealership for your Pontiac, Saturn, and Buick brands!"

[goblue]

Another bad idea.

Lets look at this logically for a second. In the past, GM tried to support 6 or so brands all designed and sold in NA. They had a 60% marketshare, so it worked out. So - the argument to cut brands with the loss in marketshare makes sense, but GM has another way.

Basically, GM needs to make the lineups identical with each brand's foreign counterparts and minimize exceptions. Chevrolet and Cadillac are the home brands, so, its OK for not all of the Chevys to be exported everywhere, but for all the other brands, GM should not be designing anything just to be sold in NA.

In other words, you can have all these brands, and profit from consumer choice - provided GM minimizes the cost.

Think of it this way. With GM's current marketshare - it can support Cadillac and Chevy realistically in the US market. If it has to pay development costs for more brands, its a loss. So, all the other brands need to come for free.

How do you do this? Overseas rebadges. Think Saturn VUE for exactly how it should be done. People get a little ticked with domestic rebadges, they get analyzed against one another - and it only works when you have a ton of marketshare. Overseas rebadges do not have these problems.

Here's how this would work. No Lambda Saturn unless GM europe can design and sell it for a profit. Lambda Cadillac and Chevy - fine. Those brands get to design for NA, for all the other brands, the NA execs pick which vehicles from their home markets that will sell - spend the minimum to bring them here, and sell them.

Now, there's a catch - the other markets must develop cars to be easily (read cheaply) exported. No costly safety redesign is acceptable. Engines must be swappable between markets.

What does that leave? If GM can't profitably sell a brand it designs in NA for NA customers - its gone. Hummer and GMC come to mind. GMC made sense when trucks sold well. That era is over. Hummer? Needs to go the way of Land Rover, elite vehicles for people who are not conscious to the cost of fuel. Thats not something GM can handle right now. Sell it.

Oh, an easy way to dump GMC - simple. GMC dealerships become Chevy Truck stores. Acadia was a ridiculous idea when Chevy didn't have a decent crossover. Kill it.

Frankly, I think this is exactly what GM is doing and should do. I didn't come up with any of this. The Monday Morning QB routine is getting old on this site. Its easy to say what GM should have done looking at what didn't work. Why don't many of you ask yourself in the year 2000, could you predict the month gas would finally hit the price that would shutdown the SUV market? I didn't think so. These problems are much more complicated than we realize, and the options available are few.

[camaro_freak]

Originally Posted by mbukukanyau

Have you all lost your minds?

How could anyone in their right minds justify killing this? These automobiles have passion in design.. not your cookie cutter designs..

If by passion you mean passion by Chinese Buick... not NA. It disgusts me to see Buick doing so well in CHINA - a communist country and yet it has taken a huge dump here on its home soil.

There is no excuse for this type of behavior by GM. They obviously don't care about the brand besides the Enclave and I think the brand should be killed off if product is not going to be given to it.

[CharlotteFirebird]

Hummer has got to go. Aside from that, I'd like to see one of the following three options:

If GMC goes:
1. Chevy (add Denali option to some Chevys)
2. Pontiac/Buick/Saturn
3. Cadillac/Saab

If GMC stays:
1. Chevy
2. Pontiac/Buick/Saturn/GMC
3. Cadillac/Saab

or:

1. Chevy(base cars/trucks/CUVs)
2. Pontiac/Saturn/GMC (mid-level cars/trucks/CUVs)
3. Saab/Buick/Cadillac (premium cars/CUVs)

Obviously all options would eliminate overlap and unneeded models. My vote would be for option 1.

[SDVite]

Not!
Sorry JoeT, but the faulty logic in your analysis keeps building and building into one big pile.
Better brand management (w/ the appropriate product) is what's needed. The various brands are assets, not a liabilities.

[drew770]

Originally Posted by JoeT

I wouldn't call Holden a luxury brand either, but they sell the luxury Calais and Statesman/Caprice along side the sporty SS, family Berlina and bog-stock Omega. It's the quality and price of the product that matters to most buyers, not the badge it's wearing, and that's why the Holden's luxury models sell well, dispite the no-thrills Holden badge.

If it's a wanky badge your interested in, buy a Cadillac or a BMW.

Didn't Volkswagen try that with the Phaeton and it was a failure. Don't get me wrong I like your ideas but Saturn has more up to date dealers and better customer service then Pontiac.
Plus, wouldn't Saturn be great as a true all green brand. Saturn has an appeal with younger anti-GM buyers.
Saturn started with smaller cars and the market is still in love with smaller cars but Saturn has lost it's way.
No one believes in the European Upscale feel Saturn is suppose to have but they would believe Saturn as a "Green Brand".

[drew770]

Originally Posted by goblue

Another bad idea.

Lets look at this logically for a second. In the past, GM tried to support 6 or so brands all designed and sold in NA. They had a 60% marketshare, so it worked out. So - the argument to cut brands with the loss in marketshare makes sense, but GM has another way.

Basically, GM needs to make the lineups identical with each brand's foreign counterparts and minimize exceptions. Chevrolet and Cadillac are the home brands, so, its OK for not all of the Chevys to be exported everywhere, but for all the other brands, GM should not be designing anything just to be sold in NA.

In other words, you can have all these brands, and profit from consumer choice - provided GM minimizes the cost.

Think of it this way. With GM's current marketshare - it can support Cadillac and Chevy realistically in the US market. If it has to pay development costs for more brands, its a loss. So, all the other brands need to come for free.

How do you do this? Overseas rebadges. Think Saturn VUE for exactly how it should be done. People get a little ticked with domestic rebadges, they get analyzed against one another - and it only works when you have a ton of marketshare. Overseas rebadges do not have these problems.

Here's how this would work. No Lambda Saturn unless GM europe can design and sell it for a profit. Lambda Cadillac and Chevy - fine. Those brands get to design for NA, for all the other brands, the NA execs pick which vehicles from their home markets that will sell - spend the minimum to bring them here, and sell them.

Now, there's a catch - the other markets must develop cars to be easily (read cheaply) exported. No costly safety redesign is acceptable. Engines must be swappable between markets.

What does that leave? If GM can't profitably sell a brand it designs in NA for NA customers - its gone. Hummer and GMC come to mind. GMC made sense when trucks sold well. That era is over. Hummer? Needs to go the way of Land Rover, elite vehicles for people who are not conscious to the cost of fuel. Thats not something GM can handle right now. Sell it.

Oh, an easy way to dump GMC - simple. GMC dealerships become Chevy Truck stores. Acadia was a ridiculous idea when Chevy didn't have a decent crossover. Kill it.

Frankly, I think this is exactly what GM is doing and should do. I didn't come up with any of this. The Monday Morning QB routine is getting old on this site. Its easy to say what GM should have done looking at what didn't work. Why don't many of you ask yourself in the year 2000, could you predict the month gas would finally hit the price that would shutdown the SUV market? I didn't think so. These problems are much more complicated than we realize, and the options available are few.

Yes, I agree that GM's problems are complicated but Toyota debuted the Prius during low gas prices. Yearly they continued to upgrade the vehicle and it's hybrid technology.
Now Toyota is in a sweet spot.
Did Toyota look into a crystal ball for the future and figured that gas prices was going to go through the roof? No.
Toyota simply believed in the hybrid technology and it's future.
GM doesn't seem willing to do that and that why they are yet again behind the powercurve and is losing money.
The Volt is a reaction to the Prius and now GM is gambling the house to get it to market.

[member12]

Originally Posted by goblue

What does that leave? If GM can't profitably sell a brand it designs in NA for NA customers - its gone. Hummer and GMC come to mind. GMC made sense when trucks sold well. That era is over. Hummer? Needs to go the way of Land Rover, elite vehicles for people who are not conscious to the cost of fuel. Thats not something GM can handle right now. Sell it.

Fine...except that Hummer is sold in more places than North America and future Hummers are going to utilize one chassis- and that's supposed to be the T355 replacement, utilized all over the world.


The Arguments behind GMC is that it sells, it's profitable, and that it cost essentially $0 to develop.

I don't know why everyone thinks brands MUST be cut.

GM simply needs better ideas and better products. Nearly every problem with GM can be attributed to bad products. Fewer brands are not going to solve anything if it means that crummy products are still here to stay.

A case can be made for every current brand...and if GM would stick to a plan for more than a week at a time, then they can be made into a sucessful team.

Pontiac-Buick-GMC should be essentially treated like three seperate lines in one brand, since they are all under one roof. The only healthy brand under that roof is GMC, but if GM can cut the bad products and eliminate the overlap while replacing them with fewer REAL competative products, then each brand will survive and maybe flourish.



For some reason, the mindset seems to be that cutting Hummer or Pontiac or Buick will solve all of GM's problems.

It won't. GM is a poorly run company with bad focus. The can't stick to one plan for more than a week. The dealerships and labor unions have too much power. If GM is going to start cutting brands, they might as well cut every automotive brand.

Lutz hasn't come up with a real plan since he has arrived at GM. He's a car guy, but he needs a marketing and focus with knowledge of supply management. Lutz isn't the guy for the job that he has.

Wagoner has pushed GM into reaching a deal with the unions, and the only real big problem that I see is that he hired a gar guy to do an MBA's job.

Oh, and we also need to remember that the American economy is in a slowdown. Gas prices are high. The only cars that are selling well are not only fuel efficient, but CHEAP. People are being careful with their money and they will be careful for at least another year. Just because sales are down doesn't mean that brands need to be cut---it just means that GM needs to cut production.

Just because Pontiac doesn't need an SUV or lame minivan doesn't mean that it should be cut.

GM is a giant clusterf-ck with a lot of bad ideas and even more bad employees.

[PocoToro]

Originally Posted by CharlotteFirebird

Hummer has got to go. Aside from that, I'd like to see one of the following three options:

If GMC goes:
1. Chevy (add Denali option to some Chevys)
2. Pontiac/Buick/Saturn
3. Cadillac/Saab

If GMC stays:

1. Chevy
2. Pontiac/Buick/Saturn/GMC
3. Cadillac/Saab


or:

1. Chevy(base cars/trucks/CUVs)
2. Pontiac/Saturn/GMC (mid-level cars/trucks/CUVs)
3. Saab/Buick/Cadillac (premium cars/CUVs)

Obviously all options would eliminate overlap and unneeded models. My vote would be for option 1.

My vote would be for option two.

1. Chevy
2. Pontiac/Buick/Saturn/GMC
3. Cadillac/Saab

Chevy and Cadillac/Saab needs no explanation

PBSG would keep all of the badges and be operated as one brand "PBSG". Each Badge would have a different "flavor"

Buick....low key luxury version of the shared platforms
Pontiac....performance version of the shared platforms
Saturn......everyday thrifty version of the shared platforms
GMC......anything that looks or acts like a truck

The styling difference may be minimal between the badges. More like the Buick Regal and Buick Grand National. Under my idea Buick would have the Regal and Pontiac would have the Grand National and would look no different than they did back in the day.

[RAVEN05649]

Originally Posted by mbukukanyau

Have you all lost your minds?

How could anyone in their right minds justify killing this? These automobiles have passion in design.. not your cookie cutter designs..

But other than the Enclave, where are the others? They are nice concepts but.....

[Bravada]

Please note that Buick's success in China is, for the most part, thanks to this little bugger:



...oh, and that U-body over there:

[benroethig]

Originally Posted by eaton53

Why bother with the rebadges?

Just sell Buick, Opel and Holden in the former Buick, Pontiac & GMC stores and send Saturn to the scrap heap.

Buick doesn't sell to anyone under 60, Holden isn't known, and if the Astra is any indication Opel couldn't sell enough cars to pay the utility bills. Honda and Toyota get it done with two brands...and they do it across the globe. How about spending money to make Chevy, a RWD Pontiac, and Cadillac better?

[CadiEldo67]

Originally Posted by plane

Except that Pontiac has never been a luxury brand.

Exactly, it would be like saying that Toyota is a luxury brand. (Scion - Toyota -Lexus) (Chevy - Pontiac - Cadillac)

First off, I really like the idea of Pontiac not being killed. This brand name has tons of potential, and I don't like the way its just being pushed to the side while some johnny come lately gets all the new products. Secondly, the structure that this editorial suggest would work perfectly. I read in a previous post that Pontiac is looked upon well overseas. If GM was to just have these three brands, they could all be global brands. In fact, I think that GM should keep Holden, Vauxhall, and Opel, but should lose Daewoo in place of Chevy. Really, the only way to get rid of these brands without cutting them, would be to turn GMC into a commercial grade brand, only. Saturn could be GM's rental car brand. Buick could fade away slowly, and go out with a bang, even though it would still be in China.

[fbg6coupe]

I agree that Saturn should go. All of their cars can be rebadged to other brands.

The Astra should be more performance oriented and replace the G5 (or be the NEW g5)

The Aura and G6 should be merged taking the best from each model

Leave the SUVs to Chevy and GMC and Enclave for Buick. Pontiac doesn't need one.

I think the SKY is much nicer than the Solstice (two soft and bulbous) I say put a twin port grill on the Sky and make it a Pontiac.

And that covers Saturn's entire line-up.

Saturn is the easiest brand to cut because it has NO history, and no real brand loyalty since its earlier vehicles were full of problems...

Right now it just dilutes and competes with Chevy and Pontiac.

I also think Saab could be incorporated into the Buick and Cadillac line-ups.

THE NEW GM:

PONTIAC (young, sporty, style) - BUICK (conservative, luxury, comfy) - GMC (premium SUVs and CUVs)

CHEVY - base models for the masses

CADILLAC - Premium sport luxury

With clearly defined models that don't overlap, this would be a success..

So long Saturn, Hummer, and Saab.