NSAP Blogs: Article Conclusion, CTS Excitement

[Vintalage]

Why the need to increase the size of the CTS? The CTS should only compete in the entry level class (i.e. 3 series, C-class, IS, G, etc.). If GM wants a large luxury sedan that competes with S-class, 7 series, LS, etc., use the DTS. If what is being said in here is true, I think moving the STS upmarket is a bad idea; it should be reserved only for the segment it is competing in now.

So the CTS is going to cover two segments while also conflicting with the STS that covers one of those two segments. Good idea.

[nsap]

For those of you freaking out over the CTS increasing in size...

We don't have a CLUE how much the size is increasing. For all we know, it could be an inch in overall length. Lets hold the freaking out for when we see the dimensions, because from the spy shots, it doesn't look all that much bigger.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by nsap

For those of you freaking out over the CTS increasing in size...

We don't have a CLUE how much the size is increasing. For all we know, it could be an inch in overall length. Lets hold the freaking out for when we see the dimensions, because from the spy shots, it doesn't look all that much bigger.

Yeah. That's true. But even if it increased 1 inch overall... it's 1 inch too much. It should be decreasing. Like reducing overhang, etc.

[Media]

GM is still absolutely terrible when it comes to interiors, the do not have one single interior that can compete in its class. The first great interior will be the buick enclave. But that is still next year the saturn outlook can't compete with the upcoming cx-9 interior. GM is still one generation behind when it comes to car designs. Hopefully that will change come the next phase of cadillac and other gm cars, but for this year they are still behind the compitition which i hope the best for gm but people don't care anymore if they buy an americn nameplate they just want the best and the only thing gm makes that are the best are full-size suvs and the corvette, nothing else they make is best in class.

They offer this:



And this:



To compete with this:



Then they offer This:



To compete with this:



This these:





To compete with:



They offer this:



To compete with these:






You can go on in every single interior they have and compare it to the competition and they will lose except for the new 900's, but the new expedition interior coming out this fall trumps beats it(although the only thing better about the expedition will be the interior it looks like the gmt 900's will remain best overall)

[megeebee]

My 2 cents: Regarding the new CTS, Cadillac has a VERY hard act to follow. Even with its drawbacks, the car has done more for Cadillacs fortunes than even the Escalade. Sales have been far beyond any GM execs dreams. Only now, in the middle of it's 5th year on the market and on the eve of its replacement are sales slowing. The mediocre sales of the STS only reinforces the original brilliance of the "Art & Science" themes that the CTS embodied full-bore, and the market yawned when it saw the "Lutz-ed" version of it.
The drawbacks I refer to is mostly the interior. I seldom read anything good about it. My '05 model has a black interior. And while I understand those who say it looks cheap, living with it day-to-day as I do leaves one with more moderate opinions. There are several embarrasingly chintzy bits, yes. But for the most part the materials are of a very high order. I do agree though that they just don't look it. But, the sales figures speak louder than anything and they say "we don't care". From what I've seen on-line in the last few months leads me to believe that the interior issues have been not only addressed, but excelled. Still, if the exterior is too "tasteful", years of work, sweat, and investment might be in peril.

[sigma]

^That's true. The CTS has done much more than the Esclade for Cadillac and GM. It showed that GM could make a RWD car with a decent weight ratios, that handled well, drove well, and performed well.

When the CTS-V first came to market it spanked the C-AMG and ran quite well with the M3. That is quite a reputation to live up too.

[GMFreak8]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

It's not 100% different either. And it should be.

You're being unrealistic. GM is doing the same thing with the Lambdas that every other manufacturer does with their vehicles. Every automaker shares platforms, and every manufacturer shares parts. GM did a hell of a job differentiating the lambda crossovers. I'm not seeing a problem here. If GM did what they've done in the past and just slapped a slightly different front end on each lambda and then put the brand badge on it, then we'd have a problem. The lambdas are an example of platform sharing, not badge engineering.

Cadillac wouldn't need a vehicle beneath the CTS if it did the CTS correctly in the first place.

Correctly? I have a hard time seeing what Cadillac is doing wrong here. The CTS grew in size, the STS is going to be growing in size, and last I heard Cadillac had plans to introduce another small car under the CTS in size. I fail to see where Cadillac is doing anything wrong. No none of this is happening overnight, but nobody should expect that to happen. If this is the case then Cadillac could move the STS up a class, the CTS up a class, and then introduce the smaller Cadillac under the CTS to enter another class.

Or it could simply be that the CTS is just growing slightly in size and staying priced and sized in the same class. If that's the case, as jbartley and NSAP have said, it's just more for the money.

Quite honestly I think you're over analyzing the whole situation and making a mountain out of a mole hill.

It's fine in the US. It's not elsewhere in teh world. And when a non-US consumer looks at CTS, the comparison will be to the mid-sized premium cars. And no matter how good CTS may be, I doubt it would come close to that level because it's still targeting the 3-series and C-class.
There's a discord here, which shouldn't exist... but it does.

Who says it can't be fine? God forbid Cadillac break out of the mold and offer more than the competitors. You have to remember Cadillac is also an American brand, and sells a majority of their vehicles here in the U.S.

I never said that there was a problem. The problem is... GMC has one, Saturn has one, Buick has one, Chevy will have two, and Saab will have one. That's overkill.

I don't think it is. Each brand appeals to a different demographic. Each one is styled differently inside and out. They aren't just badge engineered vehicles. More, different choices for the consumer leaves more room for more marketshare, more sales, and more profits.

Then what's the point of having 2 near-luxury CUV's? Under teh same roof? What's the point of Denali, if it's not luxurious?
Or... to be very blunt... "How will GMC manage to cheapen the Acadia Denali, in order for it not to compete directly with Enclave??"

Both appeal to different demographics. GMC appeals to a younger crowd, while Buick appeals to an older crowd. You know very well, all the GMC Denali line is is a few pieces of wood added, a different grille, and possibly a different larger engine, it's always been like that. Those additions will not bring the Acadia up to Buick levels. GMC doesn't have to cheapen anything, they just have to follow the same basic Denali formula that they've been following since the line was introduced.

[Vintalage]

Originally Posted by megeebee

My 2 cents: Regarding the new CTS, Cadillac has a VERY hard act to follow. Even with its drawbacks, the car has done more for Cadillacs fortunes than even the Escalade. Sales have been far beyond any GM execs dreams. Only now, in the middle of it's 5th year on the market and on the eve of its replacement are sales slowing. The mediocre sales of the STS only reinforces the original brilliance of the "Art & Science" themes that the CTS embodied full-bore, and the market yawned when it saw the "Lutz-ed" version of it.
The drawbacks I refer to is mostly the interior. I seldom read anything good about it. My '05 model has a black interior. And while I understand those who say it looks cheap, living with it day-to-day as I do leaves one with more moderate opinions. There are several embarrasingly chintzy bits, yes. But for the most part the materials are of a very high order. I do agree though that they just don't look it. But, the sales figures speak louder than anything and they say "we don't care". From what I've seen on-line in the last few months leads me to believe that the interior issues have been not only addressed, but excelled. Still, if the exterior is too "tasteful", years of work, sweat, and investment might be in peril.

I see very little in change for the STS interior:

[SilverZ]

Originally Posted by GMFreak8

You're being unrealistic. GM is doing the same thing with the Lambdas that every other manufacturer does with their vehicles. Every automaker shares platforms, and every manufacturer shares parts. GM did a hell of a job differentiating the lambda crossovers. I'm not seeing a problem here. If GM did what they've done in the past and just slapped a slightly different front end on each lambda and then put the brand badge on it, then we'd have a problem. The lambdas are an example of platform sharing, not badge engineering.

I was going to say the same thing. The only other difference is other manufactures platform share up and down brands, not laterally like GM does (example Lexus ES, Camry, etc). The differentiation on the Lambdas is excellent and above par.

Of course, some people just live off of negativity.

CTS will blow your hats off styling wise inside and out, guaranteed. I cant say that about the choppeyed new 3-series.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by GMFreak8

You're being unrealistic. GM is doing the same thing with the Lambdas that every other manufacturer does with their vehicles. Every automaker shares platforms, and every manufacturer shares parts. GM did a hell of a job differentiating the lambda crossovers. I'm not seeing a problem here. If GM did what they've done in the past and just slapped a slightly different front end on each lambda and then put the brand badge on it, then we'd have a problem. The lambdas are an example of platform sharing, not badge engineering.

No. I"m not being unrealistic. I realized GM's has made an impressive return in the design adn fit and finish of each car. It's an amazing turnaround. BUt ultimately, they still have a ways to go when it comes to differentiating each car. It just comes down to the details.
GM did a great job differentiating Epsilon, but there essentially are 4 different Epsilon platforms. The North American one. The European one. The Saab one. And the Alfa one. So they're all different animals.
It doesn't seem like GM's taking that extra half step to differentiate the Lambdas. It looks like they're about as differentiated as teh GMT-900's.

Originally Posted by GMFreak8

Correctly? I have a hard time seeing what Cadillac is doing wrong here. The CTS grew in size, the STS is going to be growing in size, and last I heard Cadillac had plans to introduce another small car under the CTS in size. I fail to see where Cadillac is doing anything wrong. No none of this is happening overnight, but nobody should expect that to happen. If this is the case then Cadillac could move the STS up a class, the CTS up a class, and then introduce the smaller Cadillac under the CTS to enter another class.

Cadillac didn't do anything "wrong" per se. But there wouldn't be a need for a BLS if CTS was actually sized correctly to compete with the 3-series and C-Class, instead of straddling the line between the 3 and 5 series.
Now if STS is gonna be larger, that's fine. but is it gonna straddle the line between 5 and 7 series? It barely competes with the 5 series, now it's gonna compete with 7 series?? Even at the "low end" of that high end class, there's the XJ. That's still not an easy competitor in prestige.
So, in my eyes, there's a lot of brand and positioning confusion at Cadillac, should CTS actually become larger. We will, of course, wait for the final CTS specs and an explanation from Lutz at some future auto show event, just to make sure.

Originally Posted by GMFreak8

Or it could simply be that the CTS is just growing slightly in size and staying priced and sized in the same class. If that's the case, as jbartley and NSAP have said, it's just more for the money.

WHich is fine, if the CTS were a US only car, made for and built for America. If it were, I wouldn't be having this discussion. And I would be jumping for joy in waiting for the official CTS announcement. But if GM"s intentions of taking Cadillac global, there are a lot more considerations to take into account.
CTS is just about the size of a 5-series now. If it is larger, then it will be the size of the 5. Is Cadillac gonna give CTS the equipment and performance to compete against the 5?
Bigger isn't always better outside the US. It's the features that count. But you know? If GM is gonna have a separate smaller CTS for global consumption, while keeping the larger CTS for Americans only, that will work too. And GM could sell a "short wheelbase" CTS in the US to gain economies of scale. Call it a performance model. And call it a day.

Originally Posted by GMFreak8

Quite honestly I think you're over analyzing the whole situation and making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Nope. Just thinking out of the box and positing some situations. I think it is totally relevant to consider every Cadillac model a global car and to compare them to global competition. Cadillac isn't competing with just Lincoln anymore folks.
Cadillac is GM's halo. It needs to be far better than anything else GM puts out. There should be no compromises. In addition, there should be a solid strategy for taking on the international markets.

Originally Posted by GMFreak8

You have to remember Cadillac is also an American brand, and sells a majority of their vehicles here in the U.S.

Cadillac is a global brand now.

Originally Posted by GMFreak8

I don't think it is. Each brand appeals to a different demographic. Each one is styled differently inside and out. They aren't just badge engineered vehicles. More, different choices for the consumer leaves more room for more marketshare, more sales, and more profits.

And more money spent on marketing each brand. And more money spent on customizing for each brand.
I didn't say they were badge engineered. I said there were too many of them. Acadia should ahve been a Chevy. Buick can then have Enclave. And Saturn can have its Outlook. Then Saab can have a short wheelbase Lambda. I would much rather have GMC revise the Envoy. But whatever. Let's jsut hope for the best here.

Originally Posted by GMFreak8

Both appeal to different demographics. GMC appeals to a younger crowd, while Buick appeals to an older crowd. You know very well, all the GMC Denali line is is a few pieces of wood added, a different grille, and possibly a different larger engine, it's always been like that. Those additions will not bring the Acadia up to Buick levels. GMC doesn't have to cheapen anything, they just have to follow the same basic Denali formula that they've been following since the line was introduced.

I think this gets into the whole "Why does GMC exist?" debate. And I'm not gonna get into that here.

[Butz]

Originally Posted by Media

GM is still absolutely terrible when it comes to interiors, the do not have one single interior that can compete in its class. The first great interior will be the buick enclave. But that is still next year the saturn outlook can't compete with the upcoming cx-9 interior. GM is still one generation behind when it comes to car designs. Hopefully that will change come the next phase of cadillac and other gm cars, but for this year they are still behind the compitition which i hope the best for gm but people don't care anymore if they buy an americn nameplate they just want the best and the only thing gm makes that are the best are full-size suvs and the corvette, nothing else they make is best in class.

They offer this:



And this:



To compete with this:



Then they offer This:



To compete with this:



This these:





To compete with:



They offer this:



To compete with these:






You can go on in every single interior they have and compare it to the competition and they will lose except for the new 900's, but the new expedition interior coming out this fall trumps beats it(although the only thing better about the expedition will be the interior it looks like the gmt 900's will remain best overall)

I can't disagree with you except on the Impala and Lucerene, I'd take them over an Avalon based on exterior and interior, also based on powertrain when it comes to the Impala SS.
I really dislike the interior of the Avalon.

[b4z]

I think almost all of GM's current steering wheels are ugly and cheap looking.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by Vintalage

I see very little in change for the STS interior:

WTF!!!!!!!!!!
Is that a 2008 STS??? Are GM Designers color blind?!?!?!?!? It's a weird cobbled together test mulish look.

The dash looks like it's wrapped in leather. And the wood on the wheel looks very nice.

Edit: No pedals either. What is this car???

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by Vintalage

I see very little in change for the STS interior:

Actually I was refering to the CTS interior, and the great improvments coming with the 2008 model. The STS interior gets a re-do for '08, I believe.

I do have a question about that photo, though. It's odd that the top of the IP and the doors are a dark-beige, but the console and half the steering wheel are black. I realize you didn't take that shot, but I wonder what the deal is. With all those wires and the wood panel on the console half-removed it looks like some kind of test mule cobbled together (at least that's what I hope it is).

[cfch3399]

Not an accomplishment if the market share of crossovers is as small as it is at present. Let's see if crossovers make it anywhere near the sales of cars let alone trucks.
It'll be interesting if customers will be lured to crossovers simply because that's where car manufacturers make a lot of money.
It's remarkable that a company as large as GM can't focus on several things at the same time.

Originally Posted by nsap

To them I say this; crossovers are the fastest growing market segment in North America; not cars.
No doubt GM needs to focus on their car line as well, but the crossover market is where all companies want to be.