(new 4-door)This new Mustang V This new Camaro - Page 10

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Thread: (new 4-door)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

  1. #136
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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Quote Originally Posted by ne_one View Post
    Fascinating series.

    MonaroSS: quite a bit of the conversation has been focused on what constitutes a Camaro. Conversely, how much of the next generation do you believe will be influenced not by tradition but by the direction Ford takes with the Mustang? ie. not just the move to a modernized design but actually how they design it.
    Ed Welburn and his guys are just as aware as we are that the next Mustang will go global, and thus Ford has likely chosen to move away from retro specifically because retro is a more limited niche play outside the US borders. It will be LHD & RHD and offer turbo 14 engines to appeal, and be acceptable on many of those global markets where a largish V6 and V8 engine choice would simply put it out of contention. Thus I speculate GM, given they have already committed Camaro to the new 'global' platform which also features LHD & RHD and turbo I4 engines, is positioned to match Mustang point for point.

    And that is why I have offered here the speculation that Camaro may too move away from retro for exactly the same reasons Mustang will, to maximise appeal and sales potential world-wide.

    GM is making a big push with the Chevrolet Brand in many world markets. While some here may think Corvette is the natural vehicle to add glamour to that push, a sensible market analysis says no. A modern, light, spritely and turbocharged I4 Camaro is the far better halo vehicle for the market segment GM is going after with their world-wide Chevrolet Brand push. Corvette is too expensive, too large and too powerful to be of any real halo benefit to people buying subcompact Chevy's in Asia and Europe. And sales of Corvette will be too low to have a Corvette on every showroom floor. But a new smaller sleek turbo 4 cylinder Camaro is exactly what would get their attention... And be right their in the showroom with the Cruze and smaller vehicles on sale.

    It just makes so much sense. Unfortunately many on this site only see everything through the prism if "U S A; U S A". The rest of the world is a little bit of a different place.... and GM is and will have to cater to that other place more and more as those external markets become so much more important to their bottom line.

    If not with the Gen 6, then certainly by Gen 7 expect a truly ’International’ Camaro. So it's only a matter of time until something more like below is what Camaro becomes...







    Last edited by MonaroSS; 04-22-2012 at 06:50 PM.

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  3. #137
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    Re: This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Quote Originally Posted by N8s07ss View Post
    Apparently not too easy It's a large hand holding the woman.

    Oh yea, I think Manaro's renderings are excellent adaptations for an evolution of both the Mustang and Camaro. They can't and shouldn't look retro forever.
    I could get the entire 3D effect, but they aren't always the most detailed. I can see the hand now that I know what it is. Thanks.
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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    this is all just your own opinion and vision and taste.

    an international camaro does NOT mean a camaro that isnt camaro, never will happen.

    it would have been alot easier to spend more time on the images and make lots of little tweeks until you got a solid camaro theme going on than to keep trying to justify them to people that want a camaro to look like a camaro (not much to ask).
    little minor changes can transform the entire car, you'd surprised yourself, takes serious time, you really have to study every camaro find the common style links (not just all the obvious features) that ties every generation together and also study your own images until they evolve, really not easy.
    also note a clever design can mean it looks instantly recognizable as a camaro without being retro if thats what direction they decided to do, takes major time and thought just for an early draft drawing/rendering that can pull that off.
    nothing wrong with sticking with a winning formular though, like the 911 has always stayed true too its self...

    A Camaro is about making the same statement its always made, no matter what country its being driven in

    think of someone that you consider to be of average intelligence...
    half the worlds population is stupider than that person.


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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Quote Originally Posted by FBODYRULES View Post
    this is all just your own opinion and vision and taste.

    an international camaro does NOT mean a camaro that isnt camaro, never will happen.

    it would have been alot easier to spend more time on the images and make lots of little tweeks until you got a solid camaro theme going on than to keep trying to justify them to people that want a camaro to look like a camaro (not much to ask).
    little minor changes can transform the entire car, you'd surprised yourself, takes serious time, you really have to study every camaro find the common style links (not just all the obvious features) that ties every generation together and also study your own images until they evolve, really not easy.
    also note a clever design can also mean it looks camaro without being retro if thats what direction they decided to do.
    nothing wrong with sticking with a winning formular though, like the 911 has always stayed true too its self...
    Of course these are my subjective interpretations, just as you would have yours and every person who has responded, both those that want a more traditional Camaro look and those who want a new modern look, would each have a subjectively different idea of what they wanted a new Camaro to look like. Right now there are dozens of very different designs at GM Design created by their designers all vying to have their subjectively expressed opinions of what they think the next Camaro should look like selected as the winning design. And even then for months as a team it would be argued over and discussed and tweaked first this way and then that way until they come up with the final form. That’s the nature of design.

    But just because some people don’t agree with my subjective view doesn’t mean I should change it to their subjective view. Why? They are no more correct in having a better aesthetic than I am. Especially as in any case it’s never going to be built and it serves only as an expression of my suggestion that Camaro move to something new and more modern. If old school people like you and others on your side of this viewpoint loved what I did then I would have failed to have created an example of something new and a different direction for Camaro. The fact you want me to change it to something more familiarly Camaro just keeps confirming that I have achieved my objective.

    The people in this thread who want Camaro to move away from retro styling cues seem really fine with this design. It’s only the old schoolers like you who have the problem. But here’s the thing… If GM does do like I have done, and head in a new direction with Camaro, those who want a new design will be happy and guess what… …those who don’t such as yourself will still end up loving it and within 6 months have added it to your idea of what a Camaro should look like. If it’s a great and desirable design, that’s all that really matters.

    It’s like the TV show American Idol, where they discuss what song this contestant or that contestant should sing to best showcase themselves. But in the end the song, the genre, the clothes and all the other paraphernalia and other peoples ideas of what they should and shouldn’t do go by the way side if they do one simple thing: They just sing fantastically… end of story.

    If the new Camaro design is fantastic, it won’t matter if it’s retro or totally a new direction with no past cues, people will love it.


    Last edited by MonaroSS; 04-22-2012 at 08:31 PM.

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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    Of course...

    The people in this thread who want Camaro to move away from retro styling cues seem really fine with this design. It’s only the old schoolers like you who have the problem. But here’s the thing… If GM does do like I have done, and head in a new direction with Camaro, those who want a new design will be happy and guess what… …those who don’t such as yourself will still end up loving it and within 6 months have added it to your idea of what a Camaro should look like. If it’s a great and desirable design, that’s all that really matters.
    i repeat:
    "also note a clever design can mean it looks instantly recognizable as a camaro without being retro if thats what direction they decided to do, takes major time and thought just for an early draft drawing/rendering that can pull that off."
    (that means they wont loose people like me, i thought that was easy to understand)

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    If it’s a great and desirable design, that’s all that really matters.
    thats exactly where your going wrong, thats not all that matters styling wise with cars that are legends.
    its fine for Japanese Brands for example to change their styling with no regard as they often have done but its not what is done with companies that care about their image and past history such as ... bently, RR, aston martin, bmw(ugly), lambo once again ........(the list is long).

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    If the new Camaro design is fantastic, it won’t matter if it’s retro or totally a new direction with no past cues, people will love it.

    i repeat:
    "if its beautiful and stunning people will decide they like american styling.."
    (or the camaro if they didnt already)

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    But just because some people don’t agree with my subjective view doesn’t mean I should change it to their subjective view. Why? They are no more correct in having a better aesthetic than I am.
    i meant before even posting it, tuning it and making it camaro.
    true, that explains why this here concept of yours is exactly like your first attempt. how many camaro threads do you plan on doing ?



    When you see the next mustang i think you'll suddenly understand everything ive been saying in this thread, ill leave it at that and look forward to when that comes out!

    think of someone that you consider to be of average intelligence...
    half the worlds population is stupider than that person.


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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Ford and GM may want to sell Mustangs and Camaros in other markets, but I think both companies know that the US is the primary "modern muscle" car market, so the cars still need to exhibit enough pony car DNA and classic traits e.g. long nose, short deck, wide athletic stance, etc. to satisfy their primary buyers. Ford has said repeatedly that the next Mustang will be "instantly recognizable as a Mustang" so despite being modernized, it will still retain enough classic elements to satisfy the faithful while drawing new customers to the car. Camaro faces the same challenge, so I don't think it will ultimately stray too far from the basic successful formula. I think GM learned that from the 4th generation car, which was too polarizing and resulted in depleted sales.

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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Quote Originally Posted by MikesZ View Post
    Ford and GM may want to sell Mustangs and Camaros in other markets, but I think both companies know that the US is the primary "modern muscle" car market, so the cars still need to exhibit enough pony car DNA and classic traits e.g. long nose, short deck, wide athletic stance, etc. to satisfy their primary buyers. Ford has said repeatedly that the next Mustang will be "instantly recognizable as a Mustang" so despite being modernized, it will still retain enough classic elements to satisfy the faithful while drawing new customers to the car. Camaro faces the same challenge...
    "instantly recognizable as a Mustang" so despite being modernized. there it is, and i cant wait to see the next camaro and how it compares!!!!

    think of someone that you consider to be of average intelligence...
    half the worlds population is stupider than that person.


    I own and drive classics, check them here:
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    GMi RIA concept cars i designed:
    http://www.gminsidenews.com/naias/revitalization/

    http://ultimategto.com/cgi-bin/showc...008/08_00102_1

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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    Ed Welburn and his guys are just as aware as we are that the next Mustang will go global, and thus Ford has likely chosen to move away from retro specifically because retro is a more limited niche play outside the US borders. It will be LHD & RHD and offer turbo 14 engines to appeal, and be acceptable on many of those global markets where a largish V6 and V8 engine choice would simply put it out of contention. Thus I speculate GM, given they have already committed Camaro to the new 'global' platform which also features LHD & RHD and turbo I4 engines, is positioned to match Mustang point for point.

    And that is why I have offered here the speculation that Camaro may too move away from retro for exactly the same reasons Mustang will, to maximise appeal and sales potential world-wide.

    GM is making a big push with the Chevrolet Brand in many world markets. While some here may think Corvette is the natural vehicle to add glamour to that push, a sensible market analysis says no. A modern, light, spritely and turbocharged I4 Camaro is the far better halo vehicle for the market segment GM is going after with their world-wide Chevrolet Brand push. Corvette is too expensive, too large and too powerful to be of any real halo benefit to people buying subcompact Chevy's in Asia and Europe. And sales of Corvette will be too low to have a Corvette on every showroom floor. But a new smaller sleek turbo 4 cylinder Camaro is exactly what would get their attention... And be right their in the showroom with the Cruze and smaller vehicles on sale.

    It just makes so much sense. Unfortunately many on this site only see everything through the prism if "U S A; U S A". The rest of the world is a little bit of a different place.... and GM is and will have to cater to that other place more and more as those external markets become so much more important to their bottom line.

    If not with the Gen 6, then certainly by Gen 7 expect a truly ’International’ Camaro. So it's only a matter of time until something more like below is what Camaro becomes...





    Excellent work MonaroSS.

    Overall, the design works, with some exceptions:

    The "Basic" side view is good but needs just a touch more rear overhang and I still have not seen a "C" pillar that says "Thats it!", but you are on the right track.

    Rear View is good and needs a touch of "muscle" to make it better.

    Front, still have issues with it being "soft", but it is hard to see the true contours on a 'chop and think the hoodline will need to be higher for pedestrian standards.

    So a good first draft - well done.

    You bring up many good points and most GMi members are just not ready to see a Camaro with a base car powered by a 220 HP/ 200 Ft-LB 1.6L I-4 Direct Injected Turbo that gets 40+ MPG which is the most important "performance" feature the next Camaro must deliver to be a global success. Optional would be the 300 HP 2.0T.

    You are being too nice to the U.S. based members with the "The rest of the world is a little bit of a different place.... " point, it is not a little bit different - IT IS A LOT DIFFERENT, more than any of these guys can dream of. They just do not get that being an "All American" product can be the worst possible thing to shove in many markets buyers faces, it is the last thing they want to hear as they are having their own economic problems and want to see products built for their "realities" and not some adolecent "dream car" shoved down their throats.

    The next Camaro (and it needs to be a Camaro not a 130R or anything else) has to be smaller than the current one and have a base I-4 engine and maybe even a Turbo-Diesel option (yes I used Camaro and Diesel in the same sentence); since it will show the world that GM is "all in" on producing efficient cars for global markets.

    On the other end of the Camaro spectrum are the "classic" V6 and V8 powertrains in a bit larger package which can be accomplished much like it is on the Corvette with wider body panels and "different sub-frames" to accomodate the power and brake/suspension upgrades, where the classic RS/SS Z28 and ZL-1 Camaros can be offered.

    One model range you have not shown is a "4 or 5-door Coupe" (think Audi A7) to broaden the Camaro's customer base to existing buyers whose "family responsibilities" require a more "sensible chioce" with a real back seat and doors to better access them and a hatch to fit in those "little extras" that go with little ones. Who says "sensible" can't be fun? This is where the current LS, LT and older Berlinetta models can fit in, the "L" meaning "Long" or "LWB" and Berlinetta a name that adds a bit of class to the Camaro line.

    Future Camaro lineup: Camaro R (1.6T), RS (V6), RS/SS (Turbo V6), SS (V8), Z28 (let's hear some ideas) and ZL-1 (more suggestions), then you have the 4/5 Door Coupe in LS, LT and Berlinetta trims.

    Body styles would "borrow" a bit from the original Mustang with 2-Door Coupe, 2-Door Convertible, 3-Door Fastback and new to the segment 4-Door Coupe and/or 5-Door Coupes.

    Alot of choices?

    Absolutely, but under one model "family", the Camaro name can be much more than just a pony car and in the global marketplace it can help better focus product development with just one "nameplate" covering more than one "segment".
    Last edited by SierraGS; 04-22-2012 at 09:46 PM.

  10. #144
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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Quote Originally Posted by MikesZ View Post
    Ford and GM may want to sell Mustangs and Camaros in other markets, but I think both companies know that the US is the primary "modern muscle" car market, so the cars still need to exhibit enough pony car DNA and classic traits e.g. long nose, short deck, wide athletic stance, etc. to satisfy their primary buyers. Ford has said repeatedly that the next Mustang will be "instantly recognizable as a Mustang" so despite being modernized, it will still retain enough classic elements to satisfy the faithful while drawing new customers to the car. Camaro faces the same challenge, so I don't think it will ultimately stray too far from the basic successful formula. I think GM learned that from the 4th generation car, which was too polarizing and resulted in depleted sales.
    Quote Originally Posted by FBODYRULES View Post
    "instantly recognizable as a Mustang" so despite being modernized. there it is, and i cant wait to see the next camaro and how it compares!!!!

    OK. What do people mean by "instantly recognizable as a Mustang", because literally there is no such thing. What people really mean is “instantly recognizable as a Gen 1 Mustang/Gen 5 Mustang”.

    The same goes for Camaro. People mean “instantly recognisable as a Gen 1 Camaro/Gen 5 Camaro”.

    The Mustang and Camaro are coming up 50 years old but cars that look nothing like a Mustang were being produced from 1974 –2004. That’s 30 years, the majority of the existence of the Mustang, which look nothing like the current model. Below I see no styling elements, because there are none, in common with what people are now calling the Mustang look. The cars below could just as easily have been a separate model called the American Capri.










    The same is true of Camaro. Gen 1 and Gen 2 Camaro’s could have been made by two separate manufacturers, as they share not a single styling element. Again, what people call being recognisably Camaro means Camaro Gen 1 / Gen 5. Gen 2, Gen 3 and Gen 4 share no styling elements at all with the original or current Camaro. And again, from 1970 to 2002 , 32 years - the majority of the Camaro’s existence – there are no styling elements shared with what people are imagining is some “instantly recognisable Camaro DNA”. You are confusing a belief in some single set of recognisable elements with in fact multiple mutually exclusive sets of elements that share only one thing in common – a name.














    Last edited by MonaroSS; 04-23-2012 at 04:19 AM.

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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    OK. What do people mean by "instantly recognizable as a Mustang", because literally there is no such thing. What people really mean is “instantly recognizable as a Gen 1 Mustang/Gen 5 Mustang”.

    The same goes for Camaro. People mean “instantly recognisable as a Gen 1 Camaro/Gen 5 Camaro”.

    The Mustang and Camaro are coming up 50 years old but cars that look nothing like a Mustang were being produced from 1974 –2004. That’s 30 years, the majority of the existence of the Mustang, which look nothing like the current model. Below I see no styling elements, because there are none, in common with what people are now calling the Mustang look. The cars below could just as easily have been a separate model called the American Capri.









    ....

    know your history: even ford would like to forget the mustangII happened and the others aint highly regarded as their best attempts and once i read in a magazine that mustangII and some others are proof that the mustang nameplate must be incredibly strong to still be here and sell well after those models and its forgiven.

    it worries me you cant see how you cant see how each of those camaro still look camaro. some of them aint everyones fav models or years but they still held up the image some what.

    Seeing all the camaro generations together like that disproved what your saying as clearly you can see how the camaro evolved quite nicely infact.

    As I said earlier you should study each generation until you work out what it is that makes them look like camaros even though they are totally different, once you crack that its the hardest part of designing done.

    now lets see all the generations of 911, or lambo's..

    your still trying to sell your ideas man, you love a good debate ...

    think of someone that you consider to be of average intelligence...
    half the worlds population is stupider than that person.


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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Can anyone out there do something with those ..BUG-EYE.....headlights!!!!!! Maybe a bit rectangular...
    Sammy

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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    I think you have to be open minded to see the ongong Mustang cues, but they are there. On the Mustang II, the front graphic (grill, headlights) and the side scoop continue and recall the first gen as does the overall size compared to the previous year model. The fox is a more serious deviation, but even here you see the return of the swep-back headlights. The hatch's overall proportions recall the first fastback's and an echo of the side scoop/hockey stick can be seen in the line from the hood back to the c-pillar vents. The Fox4 brings back the back the side sccop, echos the claasic grill shape and recalls the first gen taillights as well as its twin cowl dash. Point is, some use more (or different) cues, but they all retain some echo of the past. FWIW, I think MonaroSS has done this with his front-end graphic (which recalls the early second gen) so the argument is more about how much history (and what history) to recall. As the Mustang shows, there can be considerable latitude there.

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    Re: (new rear view)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    It works perfectly. I think this is a good indication of what the next Camaro would look like if it went to the Alpha chassis. Kind of a fan of the 130R, but it's a little too stubby to be a Camaro. This one looks like a well-proportioned cross between the current Zeta Camaro and the 130R.

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    Actually that one has a roof lower than the current one, I've replaced it with a higher roof, which is the same as the current one. Given headroom is already tight I think we can't have it even lower, unless we forget the rear seat altogether...

    While the side profile looks OK trimmed of size, lower waistline and with an inch and a bit off the wheelbase; if they make it narrower the front styling with the taller glasshouse will probably suffer quite a bit. And if people want a higher roof for more headroom than the current one then it starts to get a lot less gangster....






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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    I don't think "retro" would be a good approach to selling Mustang and Camaro on the international market. Retro means more to us than it would to a European or Chinese potential buyer. So I think a Mustang or Camaro destined for international markets should reflect essential qualities of the car without being a "me too" approach. That begs the question of what is the essence of each car and the category itself.
    Mustang to me is the front engine/rwd coupe/convertible that has 2+2 seating, a low muscular stance, nice wheels, with engines from mild to wild. It must have a V8, could have a 4, should have a 6, and should be affordable to buy and own. It should have superior brakes and recognizable styling cues that says Mustang, including a Mustang emblem within the "corral," side scoops that suggest or copy the original "C," and 3 element tail-lights, with or without sequential turning lights.
    Camaro should be the same basic elements of coupe and convertible, and MST have a Chevy smallblock V8. Other engines should include a 6, a turbo 4, and a turbo diesel for Europe and other places that accept diesel as an acceptable option.
    I personally like the gen 2 RS front of the Camaro, which had a resemblance to early Ferraris, still among the most beautiful cars ever made. MonaroSS's next gen Camaro front looks very good to me, as well as the entire car. Good enough to reach production as is. Great work Monaro!!

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    Re: (new update)This new Mustang V This new Camaro

    Why would a global audience want an American rip-off of an Asian or European car? If somebody in Europe or Asia or anywhere is going to branch out be that rebel who buys an American car, an American car is what they want. They don't want a Hyundai Genesis with a Chevrolet Bowtie. Let's not confuse retro with American. For the record MonaroSS, I love your Mustang.

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