My Vision of Cadillac

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by Randle2I

Therefore forced to question why does Cadillac need a competitor for EVERY SINGLE market? Mercedes is trying to do this and it's getting them nowhere. Why does Cadillac, which wants to be the car people dream about owning need a sub $30K car? If you're going to have a CTE-V then why not a BTE-V? Why do we need not only an STS but an FTS as well? Why no V series for the trucks? Why these silly Platinum editions that appear to offer nothing for the premium? Does a sub $30K car really need a key fob made of emeralds?

If Cadillac is going to be GM's global, full line luxury brand, then yes, Cadillac's global lineup needs to be this extensive. The only other GM full line brand is Chevrolet, and it's global lineup is already more than 2x my vision of Cadillac. And this lineup is SMALLER than Mercedes' global full lineup of cars. So I don't see any overlap at all.

Do you believe a truck can go 0-60 in < 5.0 seconds? That is where I hold the standard for V-series. What would be the use of that? Notice, I have no Cayenne Turbo S or Range Rover Sport competitor here.

Platinum Edition is the top of the line model for each line and then premium choices of leather and wood, etc. And it's custom order only. So GM doesn't end up building these cars and then letting them sit on the lots like a dead fish. This would be similar to Mercedes Designo. They are custom ordered only.

As for the Emerald key? Absolutely. And it's only to be issued to Emerald Edition Cadillacs -- the Hybrids. And befor eyou start arguing that it's a complete waste, back in the 80's, Cadillac issused with EVERY single Cadillac, a set of Gold Keys. It was part of the Gold Key Delivery program. I still have my dad's gold keys to his old Fleetwood, even though the car is long gone. They're really nice.

You realize just how far Cadillac has fallen when details such as that have fallen by the wayside.

Originally Posted by Randle2I

The way I see it you have too many over lapping models, both in house & within GM, while leaving out a few rather obvious options. Cadillac isn't meant to be a luxury version of Chevrolet with a car for every budget & every lifestyle. They're supposed to stick to the core markets & dominate them with luxury & style. Why compete with the CLS or A3 just because you can?

If you notice the market trend, Mercedes CLS has been tracking UPWARDS. Audi is prepping A7 and BMW is prepping its own 4 door coupe. I'll admit, I believe this niche was laffable to say the least. I was wrong. This is a growing segment.

Originally Posted by Randle2I

Anybody can own a BMW 1 series, but it takes a man that's really made it to own a Caddy. Thats what people should be saying.

And that's why A-series isn't offered in the US, in my vision. it's Euro/Asia/Africa only -- where small cars are mandatory due to local laws and fuel prices and narrow streets.

[KIDDIESEL79]

I like your ideas but I wouldn't mind an SRX-V or an Escalade-V.

[KIDDIESEL79]

Nice in theory, But I don't see a market for a V-Wagon

And BMW doesn't need the upcoming M5 wagon either but they're gonna make it. So yes Caddy does need this variant to compete.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by 56 Starchief

-Major competitors largely concerned with only making luxury vehicles. BMW, Mercedes (Chrysler isn't truly integrated) are stand-alone brands.

I would say, Cadillac is one of 2 full line brands at GM. It is meant to be stand alone.

Originally Posted by 56 Starchief

-Lexus does not have this deep of a lineup, nor does Audi. What is the leading luxury brand in the U.S?

Don't be fooled. Lexus sales are propped by 2 models -- the RX and the ES -- both of which are near-luxury.

Originally Posted by 56 Starchief

-GM does not have the funds in the near term and, as someone mentioned earlier, would have to eliminate brands such as Buick and possibly even Saab to continually support this expanded brand vision financially and under the GM umbrella without overlap. Ideally Buick would just die and everyone would go to Cadillac, but that won't happen.

My plan is a 10 year plan. Drawing on global platforms and smart use of the parts bin, it should be workable.

[eaton53]

Originally Posted by KIDDIESEL79

Nice in theory, But I don't see a market for a V-Wagon

And BMW doesn't need the upcoming M5 wagon either but they're gonna make it. So yes Caddy does need this variant to compete.

That's the extra model I have the least problem with.... but with LS-7 power.

Blow the Germans into the weeds.

[smk4565]

My car lineup would be:

No A3 competitor anywhere in the world. BLS stays in foriegn markets.
CTS: $35,000-43,000. $53,000 for Vseries. shrink 5 inches, offer a coupe, 300hp base, turbo V6 and V-series. Global CTS gets diesel and 2.8 turbo V6 also

STS: $48,000-62,000, $75,000 for the V12 Vseries. shrink 4 inches, restyled with a CTS/Sixteen look, 300hp V6, Ultra V8 and V-series with 500hp+, a V12 in the V-series would blow away the competition. Diesel offered on the global version.

DTS: $44,000-53,000 stays as the fleet car on Zeta, shrinks to about 204 inches, diesel V6 option since the car has a lot of commercial use, V8 engine is standard This car stays somewhat floaty for the old timers.

XLR: interior improved, exterior made more bold looking, base car needs an Ultra V8 or the supercharged engine, the V series gets a V12. This car could actually grow 3 inches in length for more trunk room.

ULS: $80,000-110,000. 200 inches long with LWB option at 206, Ultra V8 and V12. They'd need a better interior than the S-class to really compete here.

I would also offer a hybrid on all the sedans, and flex fuel on the V6.

Truck lineup:
Escalade: add hybrid option, rest stays the same "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

SRX: $43-55,000. Needs a new look, it looks like a wagon. It needs a tough, trucky/sporty look, like the X5 has. They may have to take away length to get rid of the wagon look, but the 3rd row seat needs to stay, even if it's kids only. 3.6 DI V6 and Ultra V8. Current interior is pretty good.

The SRX is close, it won Car and Driver best luxury SUV award twice, and was ranked above the Porsche Cayenne also.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by KIDDIESEL79

Nice in theory, But I don't see a market for a V-Wagon

And BMW doesn't need the upcoming M5 wagon either but they're gonna make it. So yes Caddy does need this variant to compete.

I guess we all forgot about the AMG Wagon; however, I did not.
I've seen at least 5 on the roads here.

[smk4565]

I forgot the CTS should have a convertible version too, hard top like the G6.

And I forgot the Cien. If they can do it for under $150,000, build it as is. And dig up a name from the past for it.

And absolutely no wagons! Never ever.

They don't need an SUV smaller than the SRX because Saab is getting one, and there are a ton of $30,000 SUVs, plus SUV sales are dropping.

[smk4565]

Only the Escalade should have a pushrod engine. All the cars need DOHC.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by eaton53

ATH/ATH4/ATH-V -- A-Series Touring Hatch (Europe, Asian, African markets only)
-- $25,000-40,000
-- Sub-Compact Hatch
-- RWD / AWD
-- Engine: Diesel, EcoTec
-- HP: 120-250HP
-- Main Competitor(s): Audi A3

Unnecessary... replaced by Pontiac "2002", the car BMW forgot how to build. Solstice powertrains, the turbo will blow away the 325, which is most 3-Series.

That is interesting. I never thought of it THAT WAY before. What brand would sell it outside the US? Opel and Holden? because I do not advocate Pontiac extending out of North America.

Originally Posted by eaton53

BTS/BTS4/BTS-V -- B-Series Touring Sedan (Global)
-- $30,000-50,000
-- Compact Sedan
-- RWD / AWD
-- Engine: Diesel, EcoTec, HF w/ DI
-- HP: 140-420HP
-- Main Competitor(s): BMW 3, Mercedes C, Audi A4, Lexus IS, Infiniti G, Jaguar X-Type

Unneccessary as long as Saab is around, they have this covered. Instead of wasting time with this, work on Saab... or get rid of it.

Saab can easily do its own thing with a FWD platform and not encroach on BLS and it's RWD platform. I see no overlap here.

Originally Posted by eaton53

CTS/CTS4/CTS-V -- C-Series Touring Sedan (Global)
-- $39,000-62,000
-- Mid-Sized Sedan
-- RWD / AWD
-- Engine: Diesel, HF w/ DI, LS-7
-- HP: 180-520HP
-- Main Competitor(s): BMW 5, Mercedes E, Audi A6, Lexus GS, Infiniti M, Jaguar XF

CTS-V needs to put a beat down on the Germans, not play their game.

Sorry. No OHV's here. Stick with OHC's.

Originally Posted by eaton53

Nice in theory, But I don't see a market for a V-Wagon

Mercedes and Audi have high-powered wagons.

Originally Posted by eaton53

Addition:
DTS/DTS4/DTS-V Sedan - US only
-- $40000 to $60000
-- Full sized Zeta Based Sedan
-- AWD option
-- Engines: Ultra V8, LS-7 (V-Series)
-- Main Competition - There is none.

Powerful traditional American luxury car with a Big motor, Big chrome and Big Wheels. V will be an instant classic.
Telling 30% of your customer base to pack sand is bad business. Plus, something has to bring the $$$ if you want a ULS.

No. Cadillac needs to cut ties to the past if it needs to move forward; otherwise, its image will never change. I do understand the challenges here. I see Buick fulfilling this part of the market. Cadillac needs to be focused here. And ultimately, DTS is retained only for its volume and Executive Car sales to fleets, which can easily be transferred to Buick over time.
Cadillac can build the volume BLS/BTS, and once that builds enough volume and momentum, DTS can slowly be discontinued.

Originally Posted by eaton53

Also, all non-Diesel Cadillacs will offer 2-mode hybrid versions.

I believe I said that dual-mode hybrid will be offered across the board as "Emerald Edition."

[KIDDIESEL79]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

I guess we all forgot about the AMG Wagon; however, I did not.
I've seen at least 5 on the roads here.

O yeah I do always forget that one.

[Randle2I]

Originally Posted by zaxxis

It's called platform sharing, it is NOT badge engineering. See Mazda 6 and the Ford Triplets for an example.

As for MG's vision of Cadillac, it's spot on and I couldn't written it better myself. If Cadillac is going to butt heads with BMW, Audi and DCX, it needs to do it on the same battlefields.

Tell that to the general populace. My friend thinks the Ford Fusion is just a rebadged Mazda 6. I get into an argument with him almost every time I see him about it. While you & I may know the difference it will still be held against them.

I agree with MG on some of the points, but disagree with the broader picture. He's stating that (as I see it) Cadillac needs to be a stand alone company with a full range of vehicles. The problem is that Cadillac is part of GM, it's not looked at as an individual company. Using the fact that MB has a larger global line-up is IMO a veil to deflect the fact that "this" Cadillac has too many models. Next thing you know we'll be complaining that Caddy doesn't have a competitor to this:

just because Mercedes builds it.

Originally Posted by mgescuro

If Cadillac is going to be GM's global, full line luxury brand, then yes, Cadillac's global lineup needs to be this extensive. The only other GM full line brand is Chevrolet, and it's global lineup is already more than 2x my vision of Cadillac. And this lineup is SMALLER than Mercedes' global full lineup of cars. So I don't see any overlap at all.

I'd agree if Caddy wasn't part of GM. The way I see it, if a company is going to be a stand alone car manufacterer it would justify having their own engines, their own platforms, etc. This sort of excess is what (in part) led to the downfall of GM. Not to mention with all of these models think about how often they'd have to be updated in order to remain competative! BMW, MB can update as often as neccesary because they're stand alone. If you'll notice though the luxury companies that are part of a larger unit don't have that many models because it would become cost prohibative to compete in every field. GM would have to update 2 COMPLETE line ups every 4 years! They don't have that kind of money now & they won't have it in 10 years.

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Do you believe a truck can go 0-60 in < 5.0 seconds? That is where I hold the standard for V-series. What would be the use of that? Notice, I have no Cayenne Turbo S or Range Rover Sport competitor here.

The SRX & smaller sized models could yes. The Escalade & larger....not so much. But if we're going to compete with the A class then why not this market as an American only segment?

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Platinum Edition is the top of the line model for each line and then premium choices of leather and wood, etc. And it's custom order only. So GM doesn't end up building these cars and then letting them sit on the lots like a dead fish. This would be similar to Mercedes Designo. They are custom ordered only.

As for the Emerald key? Absolutely. And it's only to be issued to Emerald Edition Cadillacs -- the Hybrids. And befor eyou start arguing that it's a complete waste, back in the 80's, Cadillac issused with EVERY single Cadillac, a set of Gold Keys. It was part of the Gold Key Delivery program. I still have my dad's gold keys to his old Fleetwood, even though the car is long gone. They're really nice.

I take back what I said then about the keys. After rethinking it I still feel it's excessive, but then again thats what Cadillac should be about. I misread the special editions and didn't take it to be like the BMW Individual, but more "special editions" crap that we don't need.

Originally Posted by mgescuro

You realize just how far Cadillac has fallen when details such as that have fallen by the wayside.

Cadillac has a lllllllloooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnggggg gggggggg way to go before I see such details in their future. I agree with you that they must improve more, they need to go further upmarket. I think they need to do this to differentiate themselves from Saab & Buick more, and to a lesser extent Pontiac. When I think "standard of the world" I can't imagine a $25-30K car being the "standard" of anything. I see it as a model to do nothing more than expand their sales and Cadillac shouldn't be about that.


I think I'll leave it at this though. While I agree with you on some points I must continue to disagree on others. Since I'm not running GM or Caddy though my opinion counts for less than a penny cut in half. It's been fun though .


*edit* OK, I lied. One more thing. I kind of agree with you on the CLS, but I still have my doubts as to how large that segment can grow. Right now it's hot, but in 5 years when it comes time for the models to be redesigned where will it stand? I'll be watching the segment simply to satisfy my own curiousity, but if MB, Audi & BMW prove me wrong then I'll eat my words with a BLT.

[smk4565]

Cadillac doens't need to build a competitor for every Mercedes/BMW. They need to hit the main segments, and make the class leader in each one. They need cutting edge, amazing styling too, so you look at one and say "wow, I want one" like how people look at an Aston Martin or Ferarri (Solstice too, hehe). Wagons are lame, that doesn't boost image.

Copying BMW/Mercedes won't work, they have to outdo them, and they don't have the bulletprrof reputation that BMW/MB have, they have to attack it a little differently.

[56 Starchief]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

DTS can slowly be discontinued.

This particular line is confusing me as it keeps recurring in the dialogue. The DTS is scheduled to die, correct? Isn't the K/H platform (DTS/Lucerne) destined to be phased out of Hamtramck IRREGARDLESS very soon? There is no plan to redesign on K/H or have a new K/H a la Chi that I am aware of. So DTS is not even in the conversation; in 2-3 years these vehicles won't even exist leaving a hole for a zeta DTS which is the only logical replacement.

[56 Starchief]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

I would say, Cadillac is one of 2 full line brands at GM. It is meant to be stand alone.


Don't be fooled. Lexus sales are propped by 2 models -- the RX and the ES -- both of which are near-luxury.


My plan is a 10 year plan. Drawing on global platforms and smart use of the parts bin, it should be workable.

NOTE: I am probably rambling here a little bit, but I am trying to develop an idea. Yes, the RX and ES are basically near-luxury. So what you want is to boost Cadillac's image, not necessarily increase sales? Because what you were alluding to in the other thread is that in Cadillac's current state they will go back to the dark days of the 90s if they do not get the BLS on the market here in NA. I am trying to see why Lexus doesn't expand its portfolio, and I see it as they want to focus on fewer models but build/market them very well. If they had as many models as BMW/Mercedes they would have to spend more money building and marketing those niche vehicles. This amounts to squeezing more pennies from fewer models. So shouldn't Cadillac focus on core models (B-C-S-U-X, BRX, Escalade, SRX) to boost sales rather than diverting funds on vehicles that will be blips on the sales radar? We can see that XLR has been that blip, and even with a beautiful new one in 2009 will it make that much of a difference? Cadillac doesn't have the image you say, but will more models make the difference, or just better ones? GM will never have a ton of money to throw around, even in better days because they will never own 50% of the market again. Even with parts bin sharing, it costs money to develop these cars. And will anyone want to see switchgear from a Lucerne or G8 in their R-class Cadillac to offset the cost? I think if they focus on the core models mentioned above that is "full-line" enough without being ridiculously "niche-y" as Mercedes in particular has become. I don't see that being profitable at any point for GM. I think GM should follow a improved version of the Lexus model if they are looking for sales. If they are looking for image, I guess they should become more niche-oriented but that will not prove sustainable for a volume-oriented company with the cost structure of GM.