Merger, Who Is It Good For? A Big Al Rant

[mikesright]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Great writeup, als! You brought to light some positive aspects that I hadn't considered before.

Again, aside from Jeep and minivans, I can't see anything at Chrysler worth buying, and nobody is going to pony up the dough to buy the entire company just to get Jeep, unless Cerberus is willing to fob the whole company off for the value of the Jeep name (like AMC did!).

I have to disagree with Buick61 regarding the LY platform. It's a modification of the old W124 Benz platform, now used by SsangYong, and is, believe it or not, even older than the GM W-body platform. It's well beyond its sell-by date, despite being basically a good platform. What's acceptable today won't be in five years' time, making Zeta the obvious choice for a large RWD platform.

Maybe GM could simply keep the two companies operating as separate entities, much like Renault and Nissan do, sharing all the hidden parts, sharing development costs, and utilising global production to both company's advantages (Renault's strength in South America has helped Nissan, and Nissan's strength in Asia is helping Renault). This would make more sense than trying to fold Chrysler as it exists into GM's titanic corporate structure.

Agreed! Chrysler will need to be independent at some levels to make this merger work, however, I think that GM can fold some R&D and white collar jobs in-house to make the plan more successful.

[RB35SLT]

Hoping GM will keep GMC and maybe Pontiac, but if GMC is killed, I'm not sure completely sure what I am going do, same for others.

[gardnet1]

Maybe GM knows of some competitive advantage that Chrysler has such as part of their hybrid electric program.

Maybe they want to take Chrysler down with them in bankrupcy, so they will have less competition when they emerge as a leaner company.

You know why they wanted to merge with Ford...Ford has a nice stockpile of cash relative to their size to help weather this economic slowdown (due in large part by senators from IL & CT who were on the take, allowing Fannie and Freddie to go overboard taking unwarranted risks).

[GM-Joe]

People who buy Chrysler don't always consider other American brands; they may consider Nissan, maybe Mazda. Chevy has been a big success in Europe, so a Dodge push in Europe may receive a similar result. Also, GM will need many brands in China to blanket the market as deeply as they can and Jeep is huge there and Dodge has a name. But if this all does pan out, I think the Chrysler brands and the GM brands should be treated separate and the only initial sharing would be done to complete portfolios; i.e. Sebring replacement and a compact.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by t-rex

I have to disagree with Buick61 regarding the LY platform. It's a modification of the old W124 Benz platform, now used by SsangYong, and is, believe it or not, even older than the GM W-body platform. It's well beyond its sell-by date, despite being basically a good platform. What's acceptable today won't be in five years' time, making Zeta the obvious choice for a large RWD platform.

:

The LX was a derivative of the old LH platform from the Intrepid, coupled with a MB rear axle.

LH was designed for FWD OR RWD, and the LX was basically making the switch.

[GMusa]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

So far unpopular compared to what? The G8's sales numbers cannot be the basis of any comparision. If the G8 sold at max capacity, it wouldnt sell more then 30k units here in the US, thats not even half of LX cars sales.
The Zeta platform itself is a better and much more flexible platform then LX is as is Sigma.
Wrap the new Charger or 300's body around it, and we are talking about some hot sellers for both of them. Not ot mention a propper platform for Challenger.

Thats exactly what i was gonna say.

[t-rex]

Originally Posted by wescoent

:

The LX was a derivative of the old LH platform from the Intrepid, coupled with a MB rear axle.

Was it? I've always been under the impression that it was a "cheapened" W124! I'll take your word for it. Makes sense though; the LH was a north-south platform, and was based on (in design, not metal) Renault's large R25 platform. The LH was a highly underrated platform and, aside from the Audi A6, was probably the world's best large FWD platform, far superior to GM's sloppy C-/H-/G- models.

The Chrysler LHS had to be the last penny postcard left on Earth — dynamically competent for a large front-driver, solidly-built, kitted to hell and back, attractively styled, with the most cavernous interior this side of a '76 Lincoln Continental... a mountain of car at a molehill price!

Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't Lutz responsible for the LH's?

[Buick61]

Originally Posted by mikesright

I disagree that GM could not make Zeta work for more volume than the Chrysler LX cars. Zeta is lighter weight and has better handling characteristics, just to start. Zeta is also far more flexible than LX, as you can see in the dramatic differences between G8 and Camaro, vs the Challenger/Charger variants. The only thing that was ever missing was the commitment by GM to produce a line of models to take advantage of the platform.

I didn't say they couldn't make it work for high volume, I'm saying that Chrysler is already set up for volume sales, and that's exactly what GM needs.

Originally Posted by mikesright

However, GM would likely keep the LX/LY cars as the R&D money has already been spent on the replacements and upgrades in tooling for those cars, and GM would likely keep the cars on that platform as long as it is viable. LY is also a point of differentiation for Chrysler's brands, so I would not see it going anytime soon in a merger. This is going to take 10+ years to integrate Chrysler into the product plans at GM, if not more.

Right, that's what I said. GM doesn't have to spend money it doesn't have when Chrysler has what GM needs, and it's paid for, it's popular, it's well known, and it's a good product.

[vam29]

Why not just trade GMAC for Dodge, Jeep, some worthwile tech patents and the Chrysler name. Then borrow $50 billion to start another captive finance company that focuses strictly on automotive operations. The new line-up could be: Chev; Buick-Pontiac/Saturn-Dodge; Cad-Saab-Jeep. GMC models could become Chevs,boosting their sales, and Jeep would replace Hummers at most Cad dealers avoiding big pay-outs for closing Hummer. GM would probably have very little difficulty raising the capital from banks and investors for the new finance company . Don't overlook the talented management at Chrysler too. Cerberus could close the unnecessary Chrysler plants themselves, instead of GM, and take the write-off against it's other investments.

[squat]

Spoken like a true GM fan. I think you attribute too much quality (or perceived quality) to GM and give too little to Chrysler. I think it could be said that any american car built 5-6 years ago had a pretty good chance of having craptastic quality while most american made cars today have a pretty good chance of being high quality regardless of the brand.

Chrysler doesn't have a good marketing team either. While it could be a good combination of companies long term, I just don't see how the reconcile all the brands near term. GM has that issue already and now you think they would excel by adding three more brands? Toyota is great because they have 3 brands total, they're not far behind GM either in sales so you can't say that 3 brands won't get you volume.

Chrysler's LY cars would probably be the platform chosen instead of anything from the zeta, if anything I could see the camaro moving over to the LY with the challenger. LY is already set up for high volume sales, zeta is not.

[adplusone]

The smartest dude in autoblog land posted early this week...

http://www.autoextremist.com/

[CadiEldo67]

Lutz worked for Chrysler previously right? I'm sure he's pushing for this merger, if I were him, I wouldn't be happy with the way the company is being run today.

[CadiEldo67]

P.S. Whats with the continuous talk of killing Pontiac still? Basically every merger that was suggested claims that Dodge should take Pontiac's place, and I feel that in the Auto-world hierarchy, Pontiac is way above Dodge, its somewhere along the lines of Chevy. Pontiac isn't going to sell without excellent product, and GM is seeming to forget this after it cancels all of its high volume products with low volume replacements.

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by t-rex

Was it? I've always been under the impression that it was a "cheapened" W124! I'll take your word for it. Makes sense though; the LH was a north-south platform, and was based on (in design, not metal) Renault's large R25 platform. The LH was a highly underrated platform and, aside from the Audi A6, was probably the world's best large FWD platform, far superior to GM's sloppy C-/H-/G- models.

The Chrysler LHS had to be the last penny postcard left on Earth — dynamically competent for a large front-driver, solidly-built, kitted to hell and back, attractively styled, with the most cavernous interior this side of a '76 Lincoln Continental... a mountain of car at a molehill price!

Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn't Lutz responsible for the LH's?

Yes on all counts.



Pure style.



Pure brick.

[Firebird00]

Originally Posted by CadiEldo67

P.S. Whats with the continuous talk of killing Pontiac still? Basically every merger that was suggested claims that Dodge should take Pontiac's place, and I feel that in the Auto-world hierarchy, Pontiac is way above Dodge, its somewhere along the lines of Chevy. Pontiac isn't going to sell without excellent product, and GM is seeming to forget this after it cancels all of its high volume products with low volume replacements.

Because for some reason on this site, a horrible anti-Pontiac tone prevails. I guess the kill it rather than fix it avenue is just the easy gutless way out. Chevy built total garbage for just as long as Pontiac did but they escape much of the criticism. I sometimes wonder if I am even on a GM site at all when I read statements like putting Dodge in Pontiacs place. WTF?! And don't even get me started on the Challenger as Camaros sister car lol.