It's Simple... REALLY!!

[sa_seahawker]

Dude, I know you all are on the Corvette trip right now, but maybe, the "Super-Vette" is in response to this from FORD:



It's the latest incarnation....Shelby Cobra GT500 Super Snake with estimated 600hp (warranty) to 750hp (unwarrantied)!

Got it from BON posts, btw...posted at stangsunleashed:

http://www.stangsunleashed.com/forum...showtopic=7852

You know, when it comes down to it....anybody would get excited to see a supervette square off against a super snake...no matter what you allegiance (Ford or GM)....it's just AMERICAN!!!

[PA Dweller]

I still rather have the Corvette, more technology and it just looks better.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by paul8488

I don't always agree with you mge-o... actually I try to avoid it as a rule... but this time I think you're right. You make some very good points... GM has such limited development dollars (or so it would seem), and they spend them so foolishly sometimes. Buick Super money could have gone into getting the Vibe out sooner... another hi-po version of the Vette (which is already world-class performance on a Chevrolet budget) could have waited and in turn the Aveo5 could be out now... one of the three Lambda big CUVs could have sat out 2007 to allow the Malibu to hit the ground sooner... so many examples of where GM could have made a larger impact in markets where they're lagging, instead of adding incremental sales (such as with the GMT 900s and Lambdas).

It's just a matter of getting the priorities straight.
I still believe it's a very simple solution. If GM at the product development stage, then the financial reasoning behind it will come.
How much better could Escalade have been if it sat out 6-9 months?
How much better could Enclave have been if Acadia sat out a year? Or what kind of customers could have been attracted to the B-P-G dealerships?

I know no one agrees with me. Or at least few people do. Or they just love to disagree for the sake of disagreeing with me.
But that's half the fun of GMI.

[SierraGS]

Your are right about it being simple, GM's main failing across the lineup is a total lack of competitiveness on content and features on GM products when compared to their direct competitors.

The worst part is this problem can be improved in months by changing the option packages of GM products since most vehicles have the equipment available on them, just not a the right trim/price points and in many cases GM has room on price against competitors.

Areas that GM fails (no NAV on LaCrosse as an example) can be remedied by fitting the one from the GMT900 as well as the 12-way heated bucket seats with memory for the seat problem.

This poor option content kills GM car resale value (yes, there are other reasons but this one is just as bad as the others). So when buyers look at used GM cars they find many desirable options missing so they move on to a non GM brand.

I still want a 3500 V6 with 6-speed Automatic in a HHR, no problem with the 2.0L Turbo in the SS but make mine a V6.

[sa_seahawker]

Maybe it's because they take the tech and throw darts at a dart board! Too many brands to distribute too little stuff to. Don't wanna be competing against their own brands.

[Old Dood]

Originally Posted by mgescuro
We all know that price/performance, Corvette is a winner.
But when you look at what could improve in the Vette?
Dash materials... Better carpet... Better plastics... Higher quality aluminum accents... Less generic steering wheel... Lose the bland interior and derive a new interior using the 2008 Malibu as a template... Lose the dinky steering wheel buttons and add true shift paddles... add aluminum drilled pedals...

Don't be fooled. There's a LOT that can be improved in the Corvette that doesn't have to do with horsepower.

This nails it as best as anyone could come up with. You can have a "New Version" of the Vette with all the right trimmings. There are people that would pay for this. You can still have the "Generic" (lack of a better term...maybe Classic is a better term) Vette but, also add the "New Version" with everything the XLR should be.(then re-think the XLR in terms of interior quality)

Yup, it will cost a whole lot more but, then again there are people that would pay for it. Would there be enough people? That is the question. Throwing more horsepower isn't the answer anymore. With all the new types of engines and transmissions now, horsepower isn't needed as much. Put the same kind of convertable hard top on the Vette that is on the XLR for example. You have "Specialty" Vettes then why not a High End/Luxury built Vette? Refined Luxury...not gaudy Luxury...

Also if I may add that this thread is what GMi is suppose to be all about. GOOD DISCUSSION! I haven't read every last post but what I read seems to show respect and thoughtfullness toward one another. People can and have been pretty hard on mgescuro in the past...but, I for one have always respected his views. He doesn't fly off the handle and he puts in a lot of effort and thought into his posts. He is a good role model of a GM fan.

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by Old Dood

This nails it as best as anyone could come up with. You can have a "New Version" of the Vette with all the right trimmings. There are people that would pay for this. You can still have the "Generic" (lack of a better term...maybe Classic is a better term) Vette but, also add the "New Version" with everything the XLR should be.(then re-think the XLR in terms of interior quality)

Yup, it will cost a whole lot more but, then again there are people that would pay for it. Would there be enough people? That is the question. Throwing more horsepower isn't the answer anymore. With all the new types of engines and transmissions now, horsepower isn't needed as much. Put the same kind of convertable hard top on the Vette that is on the XLR for example. You have "Specialty" Vettes then why not a High End/Luxury built Vette? Refined Luxury...not gaudy Luxury...

Also if I may add that this thread is what GMi is suppose to be all about. GOOD DISCUSSION! I haven't read every last post but what I read seems to show respect and thoughtfullness toward one another. People can and have been pretty hard on mgescuro in the past...but, I for one have always respected his views. He doesn't fly off the handle and he puts in a lot of effort and thought into his posts. He is a good role model of a GM fan.

Greetings Old Dood,

I agree this has been a very good discussion. And suggestions for improving aspects of Chevrolet's Corvette have merit, but I reject not improving Corvette's performance or offering a model with best in class power, after all that is exactly what pure sport car enthusiast require of their sports car makers. I would just say do both, make the improvements on the interior as well and continue with improvements in performance.

A very good example is Cadillac's XLR. I adore this luxury roadster over any other luxury brand offering today and that is saying so very much of Cadillac's XLR, but if Cadillac had delayed and not offered the XLR-V, I am confident my choice would have been Mercedes-Benz's SL55 AMG. GM for whatever reason made the correct choice with Chevrolet's Corvette and Cadillac's XLR, being derived from the same Performance Car Architecture and then truly designing two different sports cars addressing two different types of buyers. Cadillac should not slow its product plans for the XLR and Chevrolet's Corvette team should not slow their product plans.

With the enhancement in interior coverings announced for Chevrolet's 2008 Corvette and current models of Cadillac's XLR-V Series and Platinum options, those customers wanting a higher level of dash, door and console materials have that option. But in reality, customers who require and are willing to pay, have always had the option to customize Cadillac's XLR at any time when placing an order through an authorize Cadillac dealer.

I mentioned in my response on this topic that I agree in principal, but using the Corvette as one of the key examples did not support the primary recommendation very well. Corvette simply is one of the few exceptions in GM’s portfolio of car products that have the power to change at will for whatever is best for the Corvette. No one will argue the Corvette cannot make improvements in its interior materials, but I do not believe Chevrolet’s Corvette team should slow in anyway their pursuit as high performance sports car “King of the Hill”

JLM

[Old Dood]

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

A very good example is Cadillac's XLR. I adore this luxury roadster over any other luxury brand offering today and that is saying so very much of Cadillac's XLR, but if Cadillac had delayed and not offered the XLR-V, I am confident my choice would have been Mercedes-Benz's SL55 AMG. GM for whatever reason made the correct choice with Chevrolet's Corvette and Cadillac's XLR, being derived from the same Performance Car Architecture and then truly designing two different sports cars addressing two different types of buyers. Cadillac should not slow its product plans for the XLR and Chevrolet's Corvette team should not slow their product plans.

IF I had the dough I would purchase the XLR over the SL55 AMG. Even though a lot of people say the Mercedes is "better". I think the XLR (and the SRX) are the best looking vehicles GM has to offer. To me anyways the XLR is the "Luxury Vette". However, I personally believe the Vette can be improved performance wise with high tech engines and transmissions over raw power. It is only an opinion...since I am not anywhere near a Gear Head Guru of any kind. It would be neat if they did offer a XLR type hard top convertable on the Vette.

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by Old Dood

IF I had the dough I would purchase the XLR over the SL55 AMG. Even though a lot of people say the Mercedes is "better". I think the XLR (and the SRX) are the best looking vehicles GM has to offer. To me anyways the XLR is the "Luxury Vette". However, I personally believe the Vette can be improved performance wise with high tech engines and transmissions over raw power. It is only an opinion...since I am not anywhere near a Gear Head Guru of any kind. It would be neat if they did offer a XLR type hard top convertable on the Vette.

Greetings Old Dood,

My preference is Cadillac's XLR-V over Mercedes-Benz's SL55 AMG, but I certainly consider the SL55 AMG a wonderful high performance luxury roadster. And I would say there are aspects about the SL55 AMG I prefer over the XLR-V and there are aspects of the XLR-V I prefer over the SL55 AMG. But overall, Cadillac’s XLR-V style, design, driving dynamics with MRC, systems integration, high tech features and audio systems are a much better fit for my requirements. I do like Mercedes-Benz’s old world craftsmanship feel when compared to Cadillac’s high-tech feel of the XLR-V.

I like many qualities about Mercedes-Benz’s SL55 AMG; it is easily my #2 choice after Cadillac’s XLR-V.

JLM

[tomprice]

Originally Posted by nadepalma

Tom, you've made the point of why Caddy shouldn't be in Europe and that they should just go home. But the comment on the radio DJ --- there was a comment on an edition of TopGear when Hammond was driving Jeremy and the other guy (who's name I don't remember) and they were stuck in traffic going to do a spot on the radio. Jeremy makes a comment on how the fact that they are driving in a Caddy is very very appropriate.

What's the stigma about the radio DJs and Caddys about in the UK?

As for Caddy, only time will tell. I suspect that the way you feel about Caddys is just about the same thing that most Americans think of Alfa Romeo and Fiat -- yet one is coming back to the US after a decade and more of recovery and the other is thinking about it. Not many other companies were as reviled when they left our shores that Fiat (who's cars rusted and had tons of mechanical issues on our shores) and Alfa (which looked stunningly beautiful but was rather like old 80s Jags --- spent most of the time at the mechanic shop and were tempremental).

And this is coming from a devout Italophile (my folks immigrated here) and even I'm able to concede this point.

But if it wasn't for some real shift in percpetion, etc. then perhaps neither brand would be thinking of coming back here.

Of course, I'd rather have a Lancia Delta or a revived Fulvia or Stratos or 037/Scorpion/Monte Carlo --- but hey, that's just me!

BTW, the Stilo looks good!! Never understood why it got such a bad rap.

Cheers.

Soz for the late response - been finalising Monaro VXR details...

Cadillacs - one of the main reasons I say this is that your average person here, an accountant or some other middle-of-the-road worker, usually goes down the normal route (that being BMW 320d, Merc C180K), and this leaves marques such as Cadillac and Alfa open to 'other' buyers, rather than being bought en masse for company fleets.

However, Alfa don't have the same problem as Cadillac - they appeal to the kind of people who want a car that is stylish, sexy, has a soul. This is also helped by the fact that they've been around for a while and everyone knows what an Alfa Romeo is, be that in a positive or a negative light.

Cadillacs, though, aren't in company fleets and competing with 3ers for accountants hearts'; they also don't have a high-spirited soul full of passion and, well, excitement. Thus they miss out on those who have middle-of-the-road jobs, they miss out on motoring enthusiasts.

This leaves one market - people who are in a strange/unusual job (like a radio DJ) who really don't want a BMW/Merc as they feel they need to express themselves, but at the same time they aren't motoring enthusiasts of the highest order, thus will probably have stereotypes about Volvos/Alfas stuck in their minds.

So basically the Cadillacs don't appeal to the working masses (too obscure, limited in numbers and unusual), they can't appeal to petrolheads, because anyone who doesn't want a boring car (A4, C-class, 3er) will go for an Alfa 159. They seemingly only fit one 'genre' of people - these being sometimes eccentric people who work in an unusual career, radio DJ, artist, possibly bus/train driver.

Hope that cleared up a few things..

[BurnOut]

To respond to your point about the "super 'Vette", GM DOES take into account the car as a whole... how else do you explain the Z06's aluminum frame, magnesium engine cradle, and carbon fiber fenders? The big brakes? The improved aero?

It's not just about HP, and to think so is to wear blinders.

I honestly think that there is nothing wrong with the 'Vette interior, other than that it is in a GM vehicle, and people these days seem hell-bent on bagging on GM's interiors. If it had been Ferrari (or Porsche, or Lamborghini, or...) that came out with that interior, it would have been fine (assuming, of course, that it was slathered in leather; there is nothing inherently wrong with the design). Regarding the materials, let's not forget that a base Corvette starts in the low $40k range, and a base Porsche 911 starts in the low $70k range; in light of the fact that performance is similar, that additional $30k had best buy you SOMEthing. I am convinced that GM could hire away the interior designers from Aston Martin and the interior assembly folks from Bentley... and the interiors would STILL be considered poor by most folks due to innate bias.

I'll be the first to agree that cars like the HHR SS are a waste of time and money... but let's face it, as has been mentioned on here time and again, GM's biggest problem is perception. The reality is that, overall, GM's cars are no worse (or better) than the competition is... but they're saddled with the fact that they're made by GM, which somehow makes them "worse". There are of course some areas where GM needs to step it up; like the Cobalt. If they did for the econobox world with the Cobalt what they did for the performance world with the Corvette, would it sell? Ask Saturn about Aura sales. Good car... hell, GREAT car (especially the XR), but they're still selling WELL short of the CamCord. Why? It's a GM, THAT'S why. There is no reason other than that.

I know people who will claim that virtually ANY GM is a POS, despite test and survey results that show otherwise ("I wonder how much GM paid for THAT result;" I don't know, as much as Honda did last year?). Why is this? Perception, that's why.

This is something that I have noticed that is most prevalent on the coasts... people in "fly over country" seem more willing to give the domestic manufacturers a chance, wheras people on the coasts more often seem to take the opinion that anything that is produced in the US is junk, IMO. I STILL haven't figured that one out.

[medcat77]

The current z06 is a monster, peroid. However, I'm willing to bet they don't make a lot of money of the z06. GM needs to forget having the most hp for the moment and concern themselves with quality vehicles that everyone can buy. There is a reason why toyota/honda make so much profit, and its not from having a 600hp supercars. Its from that magical 16-25k price range of cars that are better designed and more refined than anything else. I love GM and our family has had GM full size SUVs/trucks in it for 30 years. But few cars. GM does midsize sedans and compact vehicles poorly. They technologically far behind the competitors, and their i4's aren't nearly as refined/smooth. Their interiors while still improving aren't comparable to the soft touche surfaces of others.
They are getting better though thankfully. I just think GM needs to really focus on where the money is. I'd be willing to bet the amount of cash spent into developing the 650hp vette would have been a lot better off spent on the malibu, or better yet a totally redesigned and better midsize platform. Like bringing out Epsilon II now instead of 4 years later.

IMO

[ChebbySalesDept]

Originally Posted by akbar

GM does not do a good job of making people aware of their unique features that make their cars an excellent value at certain trim levels
For example, the Impala ads go like …. “… took my chevy to the levy but the levy was dry…”. OTOH Altima ads tout blue tooth, push button starts etc.
These ads create the perception that these cars are contemporary and keeping abreast of technological changes. GM should focus more on advertising their engineering prowess, no matter how small or insignificant in real terms. This is necessary to change perception. Some amount of heritage ads are good, but they cant be the main projectors of image.

Thank you for saying that early on in the thread. That is the biggest problem with GM.

This thread is a perfect example. We're all talking about the PRODUCT. Very few responses have addressed the prices. But that's what GM does with their advertising. It focuses on "the deal" instead of Chevrolet's (GM's). The manufacturer seems to think the sales departments are not capable of handling the price aspect of the deal. We believe the manufacturer needs to advertise the products and the features and benefits those products provide. However, GM advertises odd angle beauty shots of wheels, taillights, grilles and those images comprise about 7-10 seconds of every 30 second commercial. The rest of the ad is Howie Long, Cal Ripken and any other celeb that can suck money out of GM.

Let us do our jobs. You do yours. Show them an ad that makes them wanting for more info by going to the dealer to find out. Stop advertising cars and trucks that dealers never stock (few if any) with payments and/or prices. Let's start showing the good stuff. Why are we advertising 5 speed Cobalts and base Impalas and 4 cylinder Malibu's. Get the consumer excited about a loaded Impala LTZ with all of the great features that it provides. STOP WITH THE PRICE ALREADY!!! That is our money to give away if we want to.

Here in NY, the local marketing group is still advertising leases on 2007 Impala!! We haven't had any in two months.

As far as OnStar goes, GM gets money from OnStar everytime their name appears in a GM ad. I personally like the feature but do us all a favor and lower the price of the cars and make it an available option. There's no reason to force it on every customer and make them go thru the grueling process of the OnStar welcome call on delivery.

I'm done for now.

Oh yeah! BTW, how much does it burn smaller Corvette dealers when Chevrolet gives (as in free) a brand new Z06 Corvette to the MVP of the baseball All Star game??? WTF?? I only get maybe 2 per year and they give one away to a guy who hardly needs it. The one they gave away last year cost me a deal. That coulda been the one my customer was waiting for all year. Boohoo.