Impala: Past, Present, Future?

[Tone]

Part of the premise of this thread is incorrect: the Zeta G8 doesn't weigh nearly the same at the Impala ... at least not according to GM Canada.

They list the following curb weights for the Impala (the first weight is kilograms as we are metric in Canada, the second is the weigh in pounds):

LS: 1613 / 3555
LT: 1613 / 3555
LTZ: 1655 / 3649
SS: 1683 / 3711

The same for the G8

Base: 1762 / 3885
GT: 1812 / 3995
GXP: 1837 / 4050

That makes the G8 roughly 300 lbs heavier right across the board. In automotive engineering terms, 300 lbs is a lot! I have a hard time imagining Holden can squeeze that much weight out of the Zeta platform without a significant cost penalty.

Put another way ... what kind of FE would an updated FWD base Impala (~3600 lbs) get with a more modern powertrain than the 3.5/4A?

BigAl does raise an important wrinkle, though -- it probably isn't practical to update the W-body platform without a significant injection of engineering cost ... which doesn't make sense for one car. Does GM have another platform that could make a decent sized Impala that weights what the current car does (or less), offers a bit more rear seat legroom and gets significantly better milage? The picture Al paints isn't pretty on this front ... but making this happen is precisely what's needed to sell a full-sized car in the age of $4+ gallon gas.

[TriShield]

The last real Impala was the RWDs produced in the 1990s. Everything since then isn't a real Impala and hasn't been fit to wear the name.

Impala is another brand that GM has been masterfully degrading with substandard cars with horrific styling that have no visual or visceral link to the pinnacle of the car in the 1960s.

Impalas must be RWD. They must be stylish and they must offer an SS model for the enthusiast. The Holden Commodore is a template for everything our Impala range should be here in the US. But the Commodore couldn't be sold here as the Impala. Impalas should have a distinct look.

Sadly, from what I've heard the Impala will remain RWD and the new one is styled like a big Malibu. Quite awful.

[HotCarNut]

Originally Posted by Tone

Part of the premise of this thread is incorrect: the Zeta G8 doesn't weigh nearly the same at the Impala ... at least not according to GM Canada.

They list the following curb weights for the Impala (the first weight is kilograms as we are metric in Canada, the second is the weigh in pounds):

LS: 1613 / 3555
LT: 1613 / 3555
LTZ: 1655 / 3649
SS: 1683 / 3711

The same for the G8

Base: 1762 / 3885
GT: 1812 / 3995
GXP: 1837 / 4050

That makes the G8 roughly 300 lbs heavier right across the board. In automotive engineering terms, 300 lbs is a lot! I have a hard time imagining Holden can squeeze that much weight out of the Zeta platform without a significant cost penalty.

Keep in mind though that the Impala is currently competing in the mid-size class. It's only slightly larger than the Malibu, especially the interior volume. The G8 is a true "large car". The whole goal for Chevy was to make the Impala a large car again as it used to be. Given the size increase that this would mandate, it would be within spitting distance weight wise of the G8.

[Tone]

Originally Posted by HotCarNut

Keep in mind though that the Impala is currently competing in the mid-size class. It's only slightly larger than the Malibu, especially the interior volume. The G8 is a true "large car".

Again stats from GM Canada website:

Impala:
EPA interior volume (L / cu. ft.): 3486 / 123.1
EPA passenger volume (L / cu. ft.): 2959 / 104.5
Cargo volume (L / cu. ft.): 526.7 / 18.6

G8:

EPA interior volume (L / cu. ft.): 3528 / 124.5
Cargo volume (L / cu. ft.): 496 / 17.5

(GM Canada doesn't list the EPA passenger volume, but I believe it is simply interior volume minus cargo volume, which is 107 cubic feet or 3.5 cubic feet bigger than the Impala ... with a 1 cubic foot smaller trunk).

Malibu:

Interior volume, EPA index (cu. ft.) 112.8
Cargo area (cubic feet) 15.1

(GM Canada doesn't list the EPA interior volume, but Chevrolet.com does. Again, passenger volume should be 97.7 cubic feet if I understand the calculation correctly).

Assuming I'm not totally misunderstanding the EPA measurments, it would seem the current Impala is much closer to the G8 in passenger and cargo volume than it is to the Malibu.

[greenrail]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Impala: Past, Present, and Future?
by BigAls87Z28
www.gminsidenews.com



In 2009, Chevrolet will celebrate 50 years of Impala, the flagship of Chevy Sedans for decades. After three very successful years from 1955 to 1957, the Chevrolet Bel Air was one of America's hottest rides. From the drag strip to the suburbs, the Bel Air and its variants were all over America, helping Chevy become the best selling car company in the states. For 1958, the Chevy team brought us a new trim level, one that would add a bit more luxury and class to the Bel Air line. That trim was the Impala. The trim option was so popular that in 1959 the Impala name grew into its own vehicle and onto becoming one of the best selling American cars in history. From its big finned days of the late 50's to its 409 Super Sport 60's, into the downsized 70's, the Chevy Impala has been an icon of Chevrolet's line up for years. Sine the 1980's, the Impala name plate has died and risen, from a upper trim level of the Caprice, to a special edition Impala SS in the mid 90's equipped with the Corvette's LT1 engine, 17 inch wheels with fat tires, and a slick appearance when compared to the more civil Caprice.
But in 1996, the Impala and other full sized rear wheel drive cars died as the demand for front wheel drive cars increased. Impala yet again faded away into the background only to return in 2000 as an all new front wheel drive based full sized sedan. This W body platform gave Impala good road manners while offering the spacious packaging of the front wheel drive platform. The car was a very popular sedan for Chevy yet again, as for 2006 the W body Impala got a brand new make over to give it a more modern look with a nice interior as well. A new line up of engines from a 3.5 and 3.9 V6 boasting huge power gains over the last generation, but the return of the V8 powered Impala SS with a 303hp 5.3 liter LS4 under the hood. While the car sells very well, there were plans to turn the Impala back into a true full sized rear wheel drive sedan again, bringing back a more aggressive and retro design to mimic the past generations of Impala. With Impala moving up, the new Malibu has also risen to become GM's true midsized sedan, and so far it is doing more then its share of the work. With its beautiful exterior design and elegant interior design, the new Malibu has won a lot of hearts and minds of many people who thought Detroit couldn't make a beautiful and competitive midsize sedan. The Malibu would remain as Chevy's midsize sedan as the Impala took back the full size segment on a brand new rear wheel drive platform shared along side the new star kid, the Camaro. But, the government would have something to say about this.

The government demanded that the Corporate Average Fuel Economy or CAFE of the automakers would have to meet a certain target by 2020, a target of 35 miles per gallon. This means that all the hopes and dreams of big V8 powered muscle sedans, the big brawny SUV's, the mega-ton trucks that boasted big V8 power would have to be dialed back so that the automakers can achieve this goal. It seems that the Impala's future on Zeta is finished due to the weight of the car. But what would become of our beloved Impala? It currently rides on a platform that as of 2010 has no real future. GM has been taking cars off the W body platform built in Oshawa, Canada for some time now, and those cars all have replacements on other platforms. Is Impala going to go away for good due to CAFE requirements? Where is Impala going?

Impala going onto Zeta was an enthusiasts dream. Again, the V8 powered Impala will burn the rear wheels, not the front, as it brings in a new dawn of performance cars. Equipped with a solid platform designed by GM's Holden division, the Impala and Camaro would ride side by side down the same Oshawa assembly line. But this CAFE deadline has put GM in a bind, calling off this rear wheel duo and turning it into a solo. GM cites that a Zeta Impala would weight too much, therefore hurting its EPA rated gas mileage by up to one mile per gallon. That does not sound like a lot, but when you figure that this new 35 MPG involves not only cars, but trucks; every MPG counts. But it brings up the question...is that really the reason? We can look at the weight of a comparable car to this Zeta Impala, the 2008 Pontiac G8. The Pontiac G8 weights just about the same as the current Impala riding on a much older W body platform. Even when comparing the FWD Impala SS to the G8 GT, the weight is nearly identical, even though the G8 has a lot more to offer. Independent rear suspension, six speed automatic transmission, larger interior space and a large trunk, the G8 outshines the Impala in every stat, every performance figure, and even priced the same as an Impala. Even with the G8’s larger 18" alloy wheels and bigger brakes, the weight difference are null. But lets look at some of the pitfalls of the G8. The G8's MPG rating for the V6 versus Impala 3.9 does show a bigger difference as the 3.9 and four speed auto gets much better gas mileage then the G8 V6's 3.6 and five speed combo in the G8. But something struck me as odd. The 4100lb direct injected 3.6 CTS gets better gas mileage then the G8 V6 does too. So, what exactly is going on with G8? Could a 3800lb Zeta Impala with a direct injected 3.6 and 6 speed auto could achieve a 19/28mpg rating? Part of me thinks that a Zeta Impala, if done and taken through the same weight loss system that the Camaro team went through, and given the proper power trains, would get the same MPG if not better then current 3.5 or 3.9 V6. But if the Zeta Impala is out, where does it go?



The current Impala has been extended to be around till 2012, when it will get a new platform. There seems to be no more work on any larger front wheel drive chassis that would work. Lucerne and DTS are going to Zeta, the LaCrosse has gone to Epsilon 2, and the Grand Prix is dead and has morphed into the G8. If GM were to keep the Impala on a FWD platform, the only answer I can see would be a larger Epsilon 2. Now, currently there are no plans for a larger Epsilon car. The upcoming EP2 platform seems to have one set wheel base, and if there is, the American EP2 cars will ride on the biggest ones as they currently do. While the wheel base on the EP2 is a bit smaller then EP1's long wheel base, EP2 will have a wider track and higher belt line giving it a better fit in the midsized sedan category. Now obviously Impala cannot share the dimensions as the Malibu, they would cannibalize each other, but a perhaps GM is working on an extended long wheel base EP2? This would allow a larger car above Malibu without hurting the Malibu's sales directly. This would also open the door up to the new world platform, perhaps allowing a larger FWD sedan to emerge for Opel in Europe. Since Opel wants to move up market, it is possible that a large FWD/AWD sedan could help its migration upwards into more expensive markets. This all sounds well and good, but lets look at the facts. Epsilon 1 is a heavy car. Epsilon 2 will most likely also be a heavy or heavier car. A larger, wider and longer Epsilon 2 will be heavier and fatter as well, most likely heavier than an equally-sized Zeta car. This does not bode well for the CAFE requirements. And, as far as a this platform extending into Europe, it is probable that Opel would go with the Zeta/VE platform over EP2 due to the fact that Zeta is a very well put together platform. And lets not forget that Opel can't go too far with Saab and Caddy above their heads. This large EP2 car would also fail in China as the Chinese are more then satisfied with the VE/WM platform cars they get from Holden.



So where does Impala go? Will it wait out till 2012 till GM can hope for some reduction in gas prices as well as new CAFE requirements? Does GM work on making Epsilon bigger despite the fact that it could be heavier then a comparable Zeta version? Will GM work on making Zeta lighter using light weight materials that could raise the price of the Impala? To me, if GM wants to continue to produce the Impala car past 2012, that the best course of action would be a light weight Zeta. Holden is already talking about finding ways of cutting weight off VE for its next cycle, which could coincide with the introduction of this new full sized sedan for the 2013 model year. It sounds very far away, but this could give GM the needed time to get the compacts and subcompacts lined up and making them world class so that they can afford to make these larger sedans. Clearly an Epsilon II based Impala would weight just as much as a Zeta one would, but not giving the same handling and feel that comes with a large sedan. With Malibu coming into the center stage as Chevy's midsize king, perhaps Chevy can take a few sales hits with Impala rising to a higher quality sedan with power going to the rear wheels. This enthusiast...err...writer can only hope so.

Thank you for your time

Big Al

Maybe I missed it, so my apologies for this comment, if I did.

If memory serves me correctly, the Impala was introduced during the 1958 Model year not 1959.

[BigAls87Z28]

For 1958, the Chevy team brought us a new trim level, one that would add a bit more luxury and class to the Bel Air line. That trim was the Impala. The trim option was so popular that in 1959 the Impala name grew into its own vehicle and onto becoming one of the best selling American cars in history.

Nope, said it right there. First paragraph.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by Tone

Part of the premise of this thread is incorrect: the Zeta G8 doesn't weigh nearly the same at the Impala ... at least not according to GM Canada.

They list the following curb weights for the Impala (the first weight is kilograms as we are metric in Canada, the second is the weigh in pounds):

LS: 1613 / 3555
LT: 1613 / 3555
LTZ: 1655 / 3649
SS: 1683 / 3711

The same for the G8

Base: 1762 / 3885
GT: 1812 / 3995
GXP: 1837 / 4050

That makes the G8 roughly 300 lbs heavier right across the board. In automotive engineering terms, 300 lbs is a lot! I have a hard time imagining Holden can squeeze that much weight out of the Zeta platform without a significant cost penalty.

Put another way ... what kind of FE would an updated FWD base Impala (~3600 lbs) get with a more modern powertrain than the 3.5/4A?

BigAl does raise an important wrinkle, though -- it probably isn't practical to update the W-body platform without a significant injection of engineering cost ... which doesn't make sense for one car. Does GM have another platform that could make a decent sized Impala that weights what the current car does (or less), offers a bit more rear seat legroom and gets significantly better milage? The picture Al paints isn't pretty on this front ... but making this happen is precisely what's needed to sell a full-sized car in the age of $4+ gallon gas.

Well, Id start to compre the LTZ vs the Base G8 as a better combo on equipment. Still a 250lb difference, but again I think the case could be made for a lighter weight Zeta car that is coming from Holden could cut some 100lbs, which puts it not to far away.
Another fact Id say is that Impala's sales would drop off due to the fact that it would be bigger and priced higher. Malibu would have to pick up the slack, but I would say GM could sell 120-150k retail Impala's a year. That alone would reduce its footprint. It also would ride on a much longer wheel base then the current Impala does, so that will allow it to have a lighter impact on fuel econ.

But yes, if its not Zeta, what will it be? How heavy could EP2 get if you made it bigger? Larger wheel base, longer overall length, wider, more space...could that get you a car about teh size of a Zeta? If thats the case, why bother with a FWD car? I guess it would come down to profit per vehicle, and from what I understand, Zeta/VE engineering had a very low bill, much lower then Sigma or any other platform of recent time. This means that the cost of engineering this Zeta platform could be reduced to nothing in a matter of a year or so. Plus, it uses global parts, instead of having a one of a kind mega-big Epsilon car for America only. Costs could get high.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Ambalanche

(remember this was supposed to be a stop-gap car)

A LOT has changed since that statement was made...

[Watchdevil]

Sine the 1980's, the Impala name plate has died and risen, from a upper trim level of the Caprice, to a special edition Impala SS in the mid 90's equipped with the Corvette's LT1 engine, 17 inch wheels with fat tires, and a slick appearance when compared to the more civil Caprice.

The Impala was never an upper trim level of the Caprice from it's continuous existance from 1965 to 1985. The Impala was the upper trim level full-sized Chevrolet until 1965 when the Caprice was introduced as the most expensive and luxuriously trimmed model above the Impala. The Impala was then a mid-level model up until the Bel Air disappeared from the US market after the 1975 model year. The Impala which was a lower content value model disappeared after the 1985 model year.

The 1994-96 Impala SS would be considered to be an upper trim level over the Caprice simply because of the muscular performance and trim over the Caprice which focued on traditional value, modest luxury and comfort. Old connotations of luxury as the Caprice had are obsolete definitions of what people expect a luxury car to be today. The 1994-1996 Impala SS was a premium vehicle over the Caprice due to it's performance content and desired market position.

The current Holden Caprice defines now what a luxury car is today. Today a new Caprice would simply be a luxury model and an Impala SS would be a sporty model, neither one really being a trim level over the other. One would be sporty, the other would be luxurious. Now days a sportier looking performance car can luxurious and a luxurious car can be high performance. If lower content Impalas were offered say like the lower range Commodores then both the Caprice and Impala SS would be upper model levels with different characters.

Today's Impala LT and LTZ represents what the last Caprice used to be while the Impala SS is now considered top of the line because of it's combination of sportiness, performance and luxury.

I do like the idea of a Zeta Impala SS supplementing the FWD Impala on a limited basis for those who want it. It could be imported from Holden or supplement future production in North America with other Zeta cars on a flexible basis.

[Jimmy Jive]

I thought EpII could be stretched quite a bit? Do we know Invicta rides on the largest version? I thought there were bigger EpII's in store for an Impala and a FWD Lucerne replacement? Even if not, an Impala could ride on the same size as the Invicta.
Either way, the next Impala should be nothing but high-content.

[knightfan26917]

Originally Posted by TriShield

The last real Impala was the RWDs produced in the 1990s. Everything since then isn't a real Impala and hasn't been fit to wear the name.

Impala is another brand that GM has been masterfully degrading with substandard cars with horrific styling that have no visual or visceral link to the pinnacle of the car in the 1960s.

Impalas must be RWD. They must be stylish and they must offer an SS model for the enthusiast. The Holden Commodore is a template for everything our Impala range should be here in the US. But the Commodore couldn't be sold here as the Impala. Impalas should have a distinct look.

Yep...agreed.

Consider that the current impala is a descendant of the Lumina (impala nameplate replaced the Lumina name for the sedan in 2000), which, in turn, replaced the Celebrity in 1990.... According to the book _Chevrolet: The Complete History_ [copyright 1996 by Publications International LTD], on page 348: "With the new Lumina coupe and sedan effectively replacing their Celebrity counterparts...." And, on page 359: "Taking the place of the aging Celebrity sedan was the Lumina sedan ... a coupe version followed in the fall."

Also, the Lumina shared types (Eurosport), dashboards (flat/horizontal), tail lights (3 square on each side, across the back panel, more or less) and FWD with the Celebrity.....

Originally Posted by TJ95GAGT

Impala SS: 16/24
G8 GT: 15/24

The V6 G8 isn't that far off in fuel economy compared to the Malibu either.

V6 G8: 17/25
V6 Malibu: 17/26 or 18/29

*raises eyebrow*

Wait...what? Those are the actual mpg numbers for these cars?

Heh ... my '87 MC LS daily driver is regularly obtaining 17 or 18 mpg every week, driving between work and home (more or less "city" driving).



Cort:34swm."Mr Monte Carlo.Mr Road Trip".pig valve&pacemaker
WRMNshowcase.legos.HO.models.MCs.RTs.CHD = http://www.chevyasylum.com/cort
"Baseball season is underway" ... Steve Goodman ... 'GO CUBS GO'

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by elderon

Well here is a tid bit for you guys. One of my close friends works at a local Delphi plant and they are already tooling parts there for a RWD Impala.....

I hope and pray it is NOT going to be another lame Commodore nose clip rebadge like the sorry G-8! I want a REAL Impala, American in spirit, designed fresh from the ground up. I guess it is my age, but the 1965 Impala is my benchmark as that year it blew people out of the water.

[Tone]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

But yes, if its not Zeta, what will it be? How heavy could EP2 get if you made it bigger? Larger wheel base, longer overall length, wider, more space...could that get you a car about teh size of a Zeta? If thats the case, why bother with a FWD car? I guess it would come down to profit per vehicle, and from what I understand, Zeta/VE engineering had a very low bill, much lower then Sigma or any other platform of recent time. This means that the cost of engineering this Zeta platform could be reduced to nothing in a matter of a year or so. Plus, it uses global parts, instead of having a one of a kind mega-big Epsilon car for America only. Costs could get high.

Which gets to the heart of the problem, which isn't FWD or RWD but weight.

FWD theoretically provides enough of a packaging advantage that you should be able to get a lighter car for a given interior volume, but as you point out, that may not be the case with the platforms at hand.

So, I guess the real question is: why can't GM create a solid, light platform (FWD or RWD)?

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Jive

I thought EpII could be stretched quite a bit? Do we know Invicta rides on the largest version? I thought there were bigger EpII's in store for an Impala and a FWD Lucerne replacement? Even if not, an Impala could ride on the same size as the Invicta.
Either way, the next Impala should be nothing but high-content.

From what I understand, there are 2 of them. There is a smaller one, but the Malibu, LaX and Aura will ride on the larger verson.

Originally Posted by Tone

Which gets to the heart of the problem, which isn't FWD or RWD but weight.

FWD theoretically provides enough of a packaging advantage that you should be able to get a lighter car for a given interior volume, but as you point out, that may not be the case with the platforms at hand.

So, I guess the real question is: why can't GM create a solid, light platform (FWD or RWD)?

Its a good question. But really, GM's cars have only recently been really heavy. Epsilon is a heavy car, but Zeta really isnt THAT heavy for the size of car you get.
W body isnt heavy either, but for its size it doesnt have the interior space it should. And when you lengthen wheel base, you increase weight due to increase in structure strength.

Remeber that any FWD platform that is made now will most likely come up with some sort of AWD set up, as will any RWD.

Holden is looking to lighten to Zeta, as well as Alpha should be pretty light.