HUMMER: The Best of GM’s Brands on the Cusp of Being Thrown Away

[FStephenMasek]

Hummer: gas-sucking box, usually often driven by spoiled show-offs living in debt up to their eyeballs.

[jameskz28]

Originally Posted by FStephenMasek

Hummer: gas-sucking box, usually often driven by spoiled show-offs living in debt up to their eyeballs.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiht....and what is the gas mileage of your V8 Eddie Bauer Explorer?

[nota]

Originally Posted by jameskz28

How ironic then, that while sales of Hummer are down over 20% in 'America', they are conversely up over 20% in every 'non American' country the vehicle is sold in. Speaking of spin- seems sales figures and your opinion don't match up.

Again, in Oz they're up 345% on what was bugger all (from perhaps 100 or less in total sales?)

The Hummer is as much a status symbol now in every other part of the world as it was in the U.S. before the greenies and gas prices unpopularized it here.

In our two big 4WD-of-the-year awards, your 'status symbol' was ranked by one magazine as #7 out of 7, and 9th out of guess how many candidates?

Eg: http://www.overlander.com.au/vehicle...WD-of-the-Year

[TruckMan]

Originally Posted by FStephenMasek

Hummer: gas-sucking box, usually often driven by spoiled show-offs living in debt up to their eyeballs.

Mercedes-Benz: gas-sucking priss mobiles, usually driven by debt-ridden egotistical ambulance-chasing lawyers who graduated from the local community college. What's that got to do with anything?

[jameskz28]

Originally Posted by nota

Again, in Oz they're up 345% on what was bugger all (from perhaps 100 or less in total sales?)

In our two big 4WD-of-the-year awards, your 'status symbol' was ranked by one magazine as #7 out of 7, and 9th out of guess how many candidates?

Eg: http://www.overlander.com.au/vehicle...WD-of-the-Year

Once again, ironic...don't want to sound like a broken record, but apparently Australia's 4WD-of-the-year awards don't seem to be affecting sales outside the US.

``There's a huge potential for Hummer in emerging markets,'' said Toprak of Edmunds.com. ``It's still a status symbol in many countries, so that would be an aspect GM would miss.''

Status Symbols aren't bought because they rank #1 on 4WD lists- they are bought because they are status symbols.

[nota]

Originally Posted by jameskz28

Status Symbols aren't bought because they rank #1 on 4WD lists- they are bought because they are status symbols.

How does a 4wd achieve status in this country? Not through those results

"more of a pretender then a real contender"

[FStephenMasek]

Originally Posted by jameskz28

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiht....and what is the gas mileage of your V8 Eddie Bauer Explorer?

Radically better than a Hummer box! Plus, unlike almost all Hummer boxes, it is a work vehicle, almost always carrying two consultants and various tools - ladders, PPE, sampling equipment, and so forth. Yesterday I reset the computer while on the freeway and was achieving 27MPG keeping up with traffic in the 2nd from left lane. With California traffic and city driving, it averages 18 or 19 MPG. I wish that it was a unibody design which weighed 4,000 pounds, instead of a body and frame design which weighs 4,600 pounds, but you can only buy what is offered for sale, and it needed to be able to carry the items mentioned. It only cost $30,000. I have no doubt that a more efficient vehicle will replace it.

[dav305z]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Sorry, but I don't believe Cadillac can weather a reboot.... though GM is going to try. Every year Cadillac continues with this reboot is a year Cadillac falls further and further behind the curve -- and they were well behind already.

Cadillac's car sales are up for the year, even in this economy. Latest Consumer Reports brand perception survey indicates the brand ranks top five in "Design/Style" and "Technology" - higher than BMW in both categories.

No. Hummer's segment is not on life support. Hummer's products are on life support. So the solution is to create product that better slot into its segment. You don't see Land Rover running for the hills, do you? You don't see Land Rover making wagons or cars? You don't see Jeep doing the same? (Though the creation of a non-trail rated Jeep is a fatal mistake.)
The solution isn't to dump the brand or "reimagine it." HOwever, if GM has the cockamamie idea of creating a Subaru-style wagon and an "H5" Lambda AWD crossover.... GM might as well kill it.


No, it's not getting smaller. The niche is there. THe city dwellers will not find something else. If the image is there, they will still buy for the image. HUmmer just needs to change it up a bit. No one's going to buy a Hommer wagon for the sheer joy of fuel economy.

No one is going to buy a Hummer for the sheer joy of $70 fill ups every week. If gas were $3 a gallon, I would agree with you. But it's at $4 and rising. As you said earlier, that's not going to go away anytime soon. The price of gas, coupled with the economy, is forcing people to change their lifestyle. This isn't just my opinion - it's happening.

Jeep is in trouble too, but is far to big and established to die. Jeep was well established long before soccer moms starting buying Grand Cherokees. Their trucks are generally smaller, and better "trail rated" than Hummers. In fact, they failed miserably to compete with the H2, as the Commmander never sold well. By the same token, it appears Hummer can't really match up to Jeep in small SUV sales. Hummer is known as a purveyor of large SUV's, not trailblazers.

Perhaps most importantly, Chrysler can and must stay with Jeep because it is one of their core brands. In fact, it's the company's single most valuable brand (the reason Daimler bought them and the reason they bought AMC). GM is different. Hummer is not by any means a core brand. It's a small niche brand. Trucks are just not the niche to be investing in right now.

No. GM needs Saab. Saab provided engineering that wasn't in house. It also provided an internationl footprint that wasn't at GM. But GM mismanaged Saab to death because GM's incompetency factor.

Don't disagree with you here. GM does need Saab's engineering and has benefited from it - just compare the new 4-bangers to what they sold 15 years ago. All I was saying was that selling Saabs just wasn't high on GM's list. Perhaps it should have been, but it wasn't. Now it most definitely needs Saab the brand.

I think people's awareness of Saab is so dormant that most probably don't even realize it's selling the 9-7X. I personally can't even remember ever seeing one on the road.

GM remains one of the most incompetently run American companies. And they move too slow in comparison to the market.
Most other car companies would have seen the strengths of Saab long ago.

No one would deny that GM is a ponderous, bureaucratic mess. But I see their considerations over Hummer as a positive sign, not a negative one. For too long the company has seemed willing to pretend it's still the 1990's and think that they can weather any storm. Well they can't. It's time to make tough decisions.

Glad to see someone has the nads to confront this aspect of the Hummer brand which, like it or not, is indelibly linked to US militarism abroad.

Undeniably the Hummer entity or 'badge personna' has evolved from and become permanently defined by conflict; first that dubious Gulf War and now continues on (and on) through this enduring fiasco in Iraq - a deeply unpopular and disaffecting international calamity which imho relatively few 'non Americans' would wish to so publicly celebrate or even associate with, via the purchase of such an overt political statement/rolling billboard as Hummer....

The war in Iraq is definitely a factor in the brand's decline (how big a factor I wouldn't be able to say). The raison d'etre for the Hummer brand was the popularity of the HumVee following its dominant display in Operation Desert Storm. The terror attacks on 9/11 pushed this popularity over the edge.

Things are different now. The war in Iraq is unpopular. Even more specifically, it is hard not to notice that the insufficiently armored HumVees have been involved in many soliders' deaths.

Again, I don't know how big a factor this really is, but I really think it is a factor.

I found a few good articles on this while fishing around for data about Hummer. That link miht not work, but try looking up "Hummer, perception" in google scholar.

[ChevroletRevived]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Sorry, but I don't believe Cadillac can weather a reboot.... though GM is going to try. Every year Cadillac continues with this reboot is a year Cadillac falls further and further behind the curve -- and they were well behind already.

No. Hummer's segment is not on life support. Hummer's products are on life support. So the solution is to create product that better slot into its segment. You don't see Land Rover running for the hills, do you? You don't see Land Rover making wagons or cars? You don't see Jeep doing the same? (Though the creation of a non-trail rated Jeep is a fatal mistake.)
The solution isn't to dump the brand or "reimagine it." HOwever, if GM has the cockamamie idea of creating a Subaru-style wagon and an "H5" Lambda AWD crossover.... GM might as well kill it.


No, it's not getting smaller. The niche is there. THe city dwellers will not find something else. If the image is there, they will still buy for the image. HUmmer just needs to change it up a bit. No one's going to buy a Hommer wagon for the sheer joy of fuel economy.


No. GM needs Saab. Saab provided engineering that wasn't in house. It also provided an internationl footprint that wasn't at GM. But GM mismanaged Saab to death because GM's incompetency factor.

GM remains one of the most incompetently run American companies. And they move too slow in comparison to the market.
Most other car companies would have seen the strengths of Saab long ago.


In terms of the market collapse? Yes. Flag were going up for a year prior.


Reputation and actuality no longer match.
BioPower was supposed to have been in the US in 2005 too.
THe market really could give a rats ass about Saab at this point, and there are Saab owners such as myself who echo that.

Saab might have had a green aura, but the addition of a V6 and the clunky V8's closed the door on that era. Saab innovation went out the door in favor of becoming a corporate lemming. And Saab followed.... right over a cliff like a good little lemming.

Because, at this point in time, no matter what GM does to Saab... it is far too little and far too late.
Lutz spouted off 4-5 years about how his wife and daughter drove Saabs. Well, the product Lutz managed to put out in that time was a complete disgrace. 9-2 was abominable. 9-3 SportCombi was 3 years too late. 9-5 is went from 5-series competitor to a laughing stock. 9-7 is the answer to a question no one asked. And now the 9-3 is a complete design disaster area.

People are fools for buying anything Saab makes.

I don't quite understand you there; did they have a choice to do anything different? I do like what I'm seeing in future product like the 9-4X, however you might be right that it's too little too late. Brands that haven't done well have been turned around before though, so nothing is a lost cause. Unless GM has real plans to give Saab what it needs (which I doubt, espessially at this point in GM's history) I think it'd be better to just sell Saab, get the money and let someone else manage it. Saab never did get much attention, and I do believe it could see it's strenghs best realized by another company or even if went independent.

[member12]

Let's not forget that it's an economic slowdown. Hummers are toys to most people....when the economy pics back up, sales of all vehicles will pick back up.

Don't sell your winter clothes just because it's 90 degrees outside in June.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by ChevroletRevived

I don't quite understand you there; did they have a choice to do anything different? I do like what I'm seeing in future product like the 9-4X, however you might be right that it's too little too late. Brands that haven't done well have been turned around before though, so nothing is a lost cause. Unless GM has real plans to give Saab what it needs (which I doubt, espessially at this point in GM's history) I think it'd be better to just sell Saab, get the money and let someone else manage it. Saab never did get much attention, and I do believe it could see it's strenghs best realized by another company or even if went independent.

I think Saab had the choice. They co-developed a new Epsilon with Alfa. That should have been the 9-3 MCE 2 years ago.
I'm not convinced this is the appropriate design direction for Saab. But we'll see. I actually don't like the 9-4. It's very nondescript. It doesn't look athletic. It doesn't look like it can run and drive aggressively. I think 9-4 will flop quite badly.

Brands that haven't done well have been turned around. None of them have been done by GM.
$6B to Cadillac to get what? A reboot 8 years later, crappy dealerships, and an inconsistent image?
Saturn's "turnaround" allowed them a complete revamp of their product line.... and spotty marketing.

Nissan was capable of a full turnaround in 1 model cycle.
Fiat did it in about a full model cycle.
Jaguar is now half way through a turnaround.
Land Rover did it in about a model cycle and a half.

I don't think these changes are enough. It probably is too little too late at this point. Saab's image of safety and security and its green image are damaged.
I'm very interested in seeing how these future Saab spec out. Will it retain Saabs consistent 5-star crash and rollover ratings? 9-3 is considered one of the safest in the word.... because Saab modified the platform significantly. And 9-5 only gets like 4/4.5 stars because it doesn't have a head curtain airbag.

We'll see....

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by PontiacBixler

Something smaller than the Hx, but with the off road capabilities of the Hummer brand that is either a Two Mode or a pure electric would open the doors for one of the best marketing moves that the auto industry has ever seen.

Imagine this:

When people ask... What should Rick do (or have done) differently...

There ya go... an excellent example.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by PontiacBixler
Something smaller than the Hx, but with the off road capabilities of the Hummer brand that is either a Two Mode or a pure electric would open the doors for one of the best marketing moves that the auto industry has ever seen......................

Voice Over: Introducing the first all electric sport utility vehicle on the planet. The Hummer H?. Get out there and enjoy mother nature.... without hurting it.

Zoom out of shot slowly still showing man prepping gear as the H? glints and glistens in the sunshine.

Over lay Hummer logo with new catch phrase "Get out there and enjoy mother nature".

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

When people ask... What should Rick do (or have done) differently...

There ya go... an excellent example.

Agreed

Great work PontiacBixler

Sorry I edited it down, but this post directly followed 2002 Caddy's

Always amazes me how many taleted members GMI has, now if we could only get GM to listen.

[2002 Caddy]

You know if GM ever built something that cool...

The marketing would be along the lines of

"This Hummer won't kill the planet like the last one did...Sorry about that... "

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

Originally Posted by PontiacBixler
Something smaller than the Hx, but with the off road capabilities of the Hummer brand that is either a Two Mode or a pure electric would open the doors for one of the best marketing moves that the auto industry has ever seen......................

Voice Over: Introducing the first all electric sport utility vehicle on the planet. The Hummer H?. Get out there and enjoy mother nature.... without hurting it.

Zoom out of shot slowly still showing man prepping gear as the H? glints and glistens in the sunshine.

Over lay Hummer logo with new catch phrase "Get out there and enjoy mother nature".



Agreed

Great work PontiacBixler

Sorry I edited it down, but this post directly followed 2002 Caddy's

Always amazes me how many taleted members GMI has, now if we could only get GM to listen.

"Well, That's the real trick isn't it?" - Han Solo