HUMMER: The Best of GM’s Brands on the Cusp of Being Thrown Away

[TruckMan]

Originally Posted by dav305z

Screw who? The buying public? This is acutely the perception problem GM has right now. People perceive that the company does not know or care about the concerns of the buying public.

The people that don't like Hummer because they are perceived as "wasteful" or whatever are not potential customers, that's why I said screw them. They're ignoring the fact that GM has some of the best FE numbers for trucks/SUVs. If they dislike GM because of Hummer, then they must also dislike Toyota because of the FJ & Land Cruiser, Ford for the Excursion/Expedition, Dodge for the Durango, Nissan because of the Armada, Honda because of the Ridgeline, etc, etc. So they're not potential customers either. Otherwise, they're hypocrites and just dislike GM period.

Originally Posted by dav305z

And who, exactly hates Toyota and the Prius? This board is not quite a [quoterepresentative sample of the American public. The company consistently ranks number 1 in buyer perception surveys. A lot of people really, really, like them. Bob Lutz himself admitted GM made a PR gaffe by rejecting hybrids.These are the times we live in.

There are a lot of "truck" people that dislike hybrids, just like there are a lot of "hybrid" people that dislike trucks. This is definitely a "hybrid" type board. Most of the people here dislike trucks/SUVs because they think they destroy the world or some other nonsense.

Originally Posted by dav305z

Can anyone find some real numbers? I couldn't find any, but would suggest your number is preposterous for two reasons:

1) Every article I have ever seen mentioning Hummer also mentions General Motors.
2)Until recently, there were virtually no standalone Hummer dealers. You're telling me people were going to Cadillac dealers to buy their Hummers but had no clue the truck was General Motors?

Sure, if you read an article that says GM owns Hummer, I would hope you would know that GM owns Hummer. Most people aren't that interested in car news, as most people aren't car enthusiasts like the folks on this site. Most people don't know that Toyota owns Lexus, Nissan owns Infiniti, and Honda owns Acura either.The Hummer dealership by me is coupled with GMC, Honda, and Dodge. I've met people that think they're all owned by the same company. You give the average person too much credit.

Originally Posted by dav305z

True enough. But the question GM needs to ask with every platform is whether the market can support multiple variants. Five years ago, it would have been impossible for GM to make too many variants of its popular and excellent trucks. Nowadays, that pie is much, much smaller.

But that's a knee-jerk reaction. To kill off a brand for one or two years of bad sales, when the entire car market is down 20%. Good thing Intel didn't shut down when P1 sales dropped. No, they brought out the P2, P3, P4, etc. You don't drop product when sales are bad, you make less and improve your product. Instead of running 2 shifts at 3 plants, you cut back to 1 shift at 2 plants. Whatever you need to do. But killing a brand off this quickly is premature.

[lam]

Would anyone want a Hummer smaller than the H4.

[TruckMan]

Originally Posted by lam

Would anyone want a Hummer smaller than the H4.

I doubt it. The H4 is supposed to compete with the Wrangler. Anything smaller becomes top-heavy when off-roading.

[dav305z]

Originally Posted by TruckMan

The people that don't like Hummer because they are perceived as "wasteful" or whatever are not potential customers, that's why I said screw them. They're ignoring the fact that GM has some of the best FE numbers for trucks/SUVs. If they dislike GM because of Hummer, then they must also dislike Toyota because of the FJ & Land Cruiser, Ford for the Excursion/Expedition, Dodge for the Durango, Nissan because of the Armada, Honda because of the Ridgeline, etc, etc. So they're not potential customers either. Otherwise, they're hypocrites and just dislike GM period.

You're right - people unfairly target GM and Hummer. GM knows this, and we all know this. But life isn't fair. Capitalism isn't fair. Two months ago, Bear Stearns was a fairly solid company. Now it's in the trash, largely because lots of people thought it was trash.

The reality is that lots and lots of people love Toyota and think it's green because they sell a crappy, overpriced, little hybrid that barely gets better fuel economy than a Corolla. This month, these people are poised to outnumber the amount of people buying GM cars in the United States. This means they certainly outnumber the amount of so-called "truck people" you speak of.

GM can't just say "screw you" to any slice of the car buying public, especially one this large. The perception is ingrained and won't be wiped away easily. It will take action, not words to make GM relevant again to these people.

Sure, if you read an article that says GM owns Hummer, I would hope you would know that GM owns Hummer. Most people aren't that interested in car news, as most people aren't car enthusiasts like the folks on this site. Most people don't know that Toyota owns Lexus, Nissan owns Infiniti, and Honda owns Acura either.The Hummer dealership by me is coupled with GMC, Honda, and Dodge. I've met people that think they're all owned by the same company. You give the average person too much credibility.

I think you don't give them enough credit. This is the same mistake GM itself has made for decades - underestimating the American public. You're kidding yourself if you don't think most car buyers today are a lot more educated than they ever were before.

But that's a knee-jerk reaction. To kill off a brand for one or two years of bad sales, when the entire car market is down 20%. Good thing Intel didn't shut down when P1 sales dropped. No, they brought out the P2, P3, P4, etc. You don't drop product when sales are bad, you make less and improve your product. Instead of running 2 shifts at 3 plants, you cut back to 1 shift at 2 plants. Whatever you need to do. But killing a brand off this quickly is premature.

Those one or two years of bad sales represent a significant portion of Hummer's existence as we know it. It did well for about two years after 9/11, and GM interpreted it as The Next Big Thing and started giving it more products and twisted dealers' arms to try and get them to build expensive new showrooms. Had the economy held up, Hummer might have made it. It had the potential to become GM's more profitable answer to Jeep and become a cultural icon.

Unfortunately, things changed. Gas got expensive. The economy went down. It's a tough break, but GM can't sit here crying about it. You call it a knee-jerk reaction. I call it a reaction, period.

Companies must react quickly to market pressures if they hope to survive. This has been GM's weakest link for two decades - their unwillingness/inability to adapt to changing market realities. The one bright spot in all of this is that GM's recent globalization push, coupled with its new contracts give it a flexibilty it never had in the past. Now it's up to management to do what it takes to keep this company on its toes.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by TruckMan

Actually, I was in Tokyo last year and I was shocked by the number of H2s I saw. Maybe 5 over the 24 hours that I was there. That's the only American vehicle that I remember seeing while I was there. And H2s and H3s are all over in the UAE and becoming more popular every time I travel there.

BINGO!!!
There is a nascent market out there. People want this type of vehicle.
Why would GM want to sell off the one brand that has any sort of image to it?

Pretty much the rest of the GM lineup not named Corvette is struggling with image and attracting customers who are truly passionate about their cars.

Hummer? Poor Hummer. Can't get a break.

Fine... sell the brand to Mahindra or Tata or Hyundai or Fiat. And I will laugh when they figure out how to market and sell Hummers en masse to the world.

[Chaz_23]

yup, here's the one truly global car and brand GM has that appeals as much to East European oligarchs, Middle Eastern oil sheiks, other mafiosi, Texas soccermoms, young rich egomaniacs everywhere and what does GM do? Try to get rid of it in a drunken media-induced stupor. Don't these people read newspapers past the first page? Yes, the American economy is a mess, but everywhere else in the world people have got plenty of money to spend.

This has got to be the best case for the removal of Wagoner.

Originally Posted by mgescuro

BINGO!!!
There is a nascent market out there. People want this type of vehicle.
Why would GM want to sell off the one brand that has any sort of image to it?

Pretty much the rest of the GM lineup not named Corvette is struggling with image and attracting customers who are truly passionate about their cars.

Hummer? Poor Hummer. Can't get a break.

Fine... sell the brand to Mahindra or Tata or Hyundai or Fiat. And I will laugh when they figure out how to market and sell Hummers en masse to the world.

[Saturn69]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

BINGO!!!
There is a nascent market out there. People want this type of vehicle.
Why would GM want to sell off the one brand that has any sort of image to it?

Pretty much the rest of the GM lineup not named Corvette is struggling with image and attracting customers who are truly passionate about their cars.

Hummer? Poor Hummer. Can't get a break.

Fine... sell the brand to Mahindra or Tata or Hyundai or Fiat. And I will laugh when they figure out how to market and sell Hummers en masse to the world.

If people wanted this type of vehicle, then why don't they sell more than 85K a year and why did sales drop 62% if demand is so high? Ah, cuz gas isn't cheap!

Uh, who cares how many they sell in Japan? So far the eyewitness count is at 5. In a country of 17.4 million, 5 Hummers is reason enough to keep a dying division around? Sorry, that doesn't warrant the expense of keeping Hummer alive. What world do you live in? En masse...big words. Hummer doesn't fit in $4+ per gallon gas America. Why do you care if they keep it anyway? GM killed my puppy, I'm gonna be a staff member on GmInsideNews!

Heck, I'm a Saturn fan and I can't see much reason for Saturn to be around anymore. And I own 2 of them. And they sell 3 times a many Saturns as they do Hummers. Why keep Hummer?

[TruckMan]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

If people wanted this type of vehicle, then why don't they sell more than 85K a year and why did sales drop 62% if demand is so high? Ah, cuz gas isn't cheap!

Uh, who cares how many they sell in Japan? So far the eyewitness count is at 5. In a country of 17.4 million, 5 Hummers is reason enough to keep a dying division around? Sorry, that doesn't warrant the expense of keeping Hummer alive. What world do you live in? En masse...big words. Hummer doesn't fit in $4+ per gallon gas America. Why do you care if they keep it anyway? GM killed my puppy, I'm gonna be a staff member on GmInsideNews!

Heck, I'm a Saturn fan and I can't see much reason for Saturn to be around anymore. And I own 2 of them. And they sell 3 times a many Saturns as they do Hummers. Why keep Hummer?

Doesn't Hummer make more money than Saturn, even with lower sales? I don't know myself, but I thought I read some place that Saturn hasn't turned a profit in a while and Hummer is very profitable? It might not be true, but if it is, that's a good reason.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by Saturn69

If people wanted this type of vehicle, then why don't they sell more than 85K a year and why did sales drop 62% if demand is so high? Ah, cuz gas isn't cheap!

Umm... Not totally. It's a niche vehicle. And H2's are expensive -- up to $60K. H3's can run to $40,000.
Why did demand drop when gas went up? because GM's marketing was targetting the urban buyer -- not the adventure buyer. Not the luxury-adventure buyer either.

Wanna expand HUMMER's niche? Throw out a stat comparing H3 off-road capabilities to the LR3... AND show how much more gas you save with an H3 compared to LR3. That will raise some eyebrows.

Originally Posted by Saturn69

Uh, who cares how many they sell in Japan? So far the eyewitness count is at 5. In a country of 17.4 million, 5 Hummers is reason enough to keep a dying division around?

And how successful has GM been at selling ANYTHING in Japan?
Consider it " a foot in the door."
GM finally has a vehicle that will attract buyers. And they WANT it.

The problem is... GM is a volume automaker. They need to make money. By definition, they are not a niche automaker. Yet, they try and try and try to create niche cars.
But ultimately they fail because they can't make them fit into a spreadsheet.
Failed with Saab.
Failed with Cadillac.
Failed with Saturn.
Failed with HUMMER.

If GM simply took the time to understand what it means to build for a niche market, they would understand that niche brand customers have specific needs. They buy these cars because the cars offers something unique and special; otherwise, everyone would just buy toasters like Corolla and Accord.

Why do people buy Saab? Because of it design, efficiency, performance, and "Saab-ness." So why put in a V8 and a corporate radio?
Why do people buy Cadillac? For luxury and a smooth ride? For performance? Well, Cadillac hasn't figured out squat.
Why do people buy Saturns? Great small, efficient cars with world class customer service. Change the image... and then drop all marketing.... Good job Saturn.
Why do people by HUMMER? Because of its image. So sell the image. Sell on its capabilities. Don't sell on fuel consumption.

[GM-Joe]

I like your tone today and your outlook. I think HUMMER is bigger than what it really is. I would love to have an H3 Alpha, but not for 40k, or even 30k. I do hope that HUMMER remains as it is. I hope the H2 remains as it is, maybe even more upmarket. Sounds funny and not too macho, but I was day dreaming at work today and thought an H2 with a 4.5 turbo diesel and 2 mode hybrid technology (if the tranny can handle it) could get near 30mpg and with a 10% weight reduction and a little better drag coefficient could push it near the mid-thirties. You never know unless you try.

[Hoosier Red]

Originally Posted by jameskz28

I would be willing to bet that more than 50% of people off the street could not name every brand GM owns that sells cars in the US...most would likely forget Saab

Why is that surprising? I'm not sure GM has remembered Saab.

[dav305z]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Fine... sell the brand to Mahindra or Tata or Hyundai or Fiat. And I will laugh when they figure out how to market and sell Hummers en masse to the world.

Come on, you're a baseball guy. Haven't you heard of a trade that benefits both teams?

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if some other company figured out a way to do well Hummer. That doesn't mean GM should keep it.

What GM needs right now is cash and the flexibility to focus on building new cars. What they don't need is a third luxury truck division that's plummeting in sales.

So Tata or the likes will get a strong brand with the potential to boost sales (although I hardly think the market for SUV's abroad is as wonderful as you think it is).

And before you even ask, selling Hummer would be completely different from selling your boy, Saab. Saab is looking more attractive than ever, both for its products and its four-cylinder expertise.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by dav305z

Come on, you're a baseball guy. Haven't you heard of a trade that benefits both teams?

Baloney too. A trade doesn't always benefit both teams. The expectation is that it will benefit both teams, but it almost never always turns out that way.

Originally Posted by dav305z

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if some other company figured out a way to do well Hummer. That doesn't mean GM should keep it.

When GM is dealing with an image problem? And when HUMMER has great appeal outside the US in markets that GM doesn't usually have success in?

You can be reactive to the market. You need to get ahead.
GM, thus far, not only has been reactive, but they're slow to react.
By the time GM figures out what to do with HUMMER, the market will have progressed beyond their initial expectations. And once they sell HUMMER, they'll probably try to duplicate HUMMER within GMC or CHevy.
What you'll eventually end up with are a bunch of semi-offroadable rebadges. And of course a Denali version to replace the luxury HUMMERs.
Good job GM.

Originally Posted by dav305z

What GM needs right now is cash and the flexibility to focus on building new cars. What they don't need is a third luxury truck division that's plummeting in sales.

What they need to do is hold that line at HUMMER. Launch the H3T and the H4. Launch them with diesel systems.
What they need to do is learn how to manage a niche brand like a niche brand and keep their grubby corporate fingers out of the mechanics; otherwise, there is no hope for Saab or Cadillac.

Originally Posted by dav305z

So Tata or the likes will get a strong brand with the potential to boost sales (although I hardly think the market for SUV's abroad is as wonderful as you think it is).

I don't believe that. Land Rover sales remain quite high and are at record levels. Land Cruiser is also quite respected. There's certainly more room for HUMMER.

Originally Posted by dav305z

And before you even ask, selling Hummer would be completely different from selling your boy, Saab. Saab is looking more attractive than ever, both for its products and its four-cylinder expertise.

I want GM to sell Saab because I'm quite tired of watching them **** around with it. They have no clue what to do with Saab.

[eaton53]

because GM's marketing was targetting the urban buyer -- not the adventure buyer. Not the luxury-adventure buyer either.

I think well heeled pimps are still interested. Just need some targeted ads... in late-night of course.

This one's for you, pimps...

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...0&rdpage=thumb

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Despite what GM might be trying to convince the media, gas really has nothing to do with HUMMER's existence.
People who buy HUMMER will buy it for its capabilities. It's a matter of shifting HUMMER's marketing direction.

Analysts can speculate about oil speculation all they want. Desiring $2 gas isn't going to get you $2 gas.

Demand is high. 2 of the world's largest largest countries are industrializing. Specualtion or not, demand will remain high for the forseeable future.
Get used to $3-4 gas.

Absolutely true - except gas will drop to the $2-$3 range (but that is another topic)

HUMMER customers demand unique features and one feature GM can make "exclusive to HUMMER" is the new 4.5L Turbo Diesel in both the H2 and H3.

Granted this "exclusivity" would not last long but at least HUMMER is presented as a brand GM cares about.

The 4.5L TD would also solve HUMMER's long standing lack of a Diesel in lower models (rather ironic since the H1 started with a Turbo Diesel).

Off-Roaders love diesels with the low end torque and better MPG (Range Off-Road) and this change along with the H3T, H4 and HX would solidify the HUMMER brand and sell well in the R.O.W. markets, which brings up the suggestion of cutting back HUMMER sales in the U.S to existing HUMMER dealers wanting to remain with the brand or opening HUMMER sales up to all GM dealers and giving franchises to the best performers.

The real question is why does GM want to create another future competitor?