GM's Hybrids, Hydrogen and Plug-ins are Great but...

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by dav305z

.... They never offered a manual transmission in the Grand Prix or any other W-Body, arguing that not enough people would buy it. ........

My '91 Grand Prix had a manual transmission. But the car wasn't really designed for it (a parking brake PEDAL? - that's 4 pedals, 2 feet - I'm coming up short there).

But GM was right, not enough people DID buy them, so that choice was lost.

They say the G8 will get a manual though......

[Bornfromparents]

You should also post this commentary on the fastlane blog. Although I'm sure someone who works at GM has visited this site a time or two.
But it can't hurt. GM is still slooooooow to move and North America is the place that suffers. GM around the globe is seen in more a positive light then our own country and even from from our owm fan base. Piss off the fans long enough, and see what kind of fruits you will bare. No amount of marketing will fix that. Of coarse it will mean the end for GM...North America.

[editor]

Originally Posted by Ming

Yep, I'm hoping that GM takes the opportunity with the Saturn Astra to show off some of those nice new Euro 4-cylinder variants.

GM sells great 4-cylinder engines in Europe because the price of gasoline is so high compared to here. Those same engines aren't here because they go in small cars which Americans don't buy, for the most part.

But, as others have pointed out, if gasoline should spike suddenly and then stay at a sustained higher price level - then, "poof" - another segment of the buying public lost to GM for the foreseeable future because they turned to another automaker to get those great 4-cylinder cars that they wanted.

One positive consequence of hugher gasoline prices is that you end up with world-class small engines in your market. Most Americans are aware that gas prices in Europe are higher, but I think they really are unaware of just how much higher those prices (look HERE) are in comparison to ours.

GM would be wise to make sure those same great small cars with their great small engines are for sale here, even as a placeholder, in case the market's needs change dramatically.

[CobaltSScrazy]

GM sold over 200,000 Cobalts last year, Honda sold over 300,000 Civics, hundreds of thousands of corrollas are sold each year and mazda sells almost 100,000k 3's...wtf are you talking about??? Ford sells countless focus' and dodge sells many calibers...

CobaltSScrazy

Originally Posted by editor

GM sells great 4-cylinder engines in Europe because the price of gasoline is so high compared to here. Those same engines aren't here because they go in small cars which Americans don't buy, for the most part.

But, as others have pointed out, if gasoline should spike suddenly and then stay at a sustained higher price level - then, "poof" - another segment of the buying public lost to GM for the foreseeable future because they turned to another automaker to get those great 4-cylinder cars that they wanted.

One positive consequence of hugher gasoline prices is that you end up with world-class small engines in your market. Most Americans are aware that gas prices in Europe are higher, but I think they really are unaware of just how much higher those prices (look HERE) are in comparison to ours.

GM would be wise to make sure those same great small cars with their great small engines are for sale here, even as a placeholder, in case the market's needs change dramatically.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

Why all the 2.2 hating?

I disagree -- I bought my Cobalt because of the 2.2's performance.... and the EPA numbers are understated on the Cobalt. I average 37-38 mpg on the Highway with the 5 speed manual. If you want a 1.8 Liter Aveo, fine. But please GM -- don't ruin the Cobalt by axing the wonderful 2.2. Anyone who has driven the torqueless wonders that are known as Civic and Corolla would most likely rather have the Cobalt's 2.2 under the hood

Powertrains have never been a Cobalt weak spot -- its interior plastics, bland styling, etc. that the car needs improvement.

The 2.2 is far more powerful than the base Honda or Toyota junk. The Cobalt's mission ain't an economy car -- its a premium compact. Leave the fuel misers to the Aveo.

I think Ming's point is not that the 2.2L is a bad engine, just that the 2.4L gives you about the same MPG with more power and that the 1.8L would deliver better MPG with acceptable power. And as many have pointed out a 1.8L DI engine and a 2.4L DI for that matter would be great addtions to the Cobalt.

Of course there is a 2.2L DI engine offered in Europe in the Vectra and recently, some Astra models, so maybe the Saturn Astra would offer the same 2.2L DI engine as the Aussie Astra (see recently added thread on the 1.8L Aussie Astra - second article).

GM also introduced a new 1.6L VVT engine for the Astra that puts out 115 HP vs the 105 of the previous one with 27/45 MPG (US). This would work in the Aveo with a Aveo Sport with the 1.8L.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by Ming

Yep, I'm hoping that GM takes the opportunity with the Saturn Astra to show off some of those nice new Euro 4-cylinder variants.

Yea, don't forget the Diesels.

Another place GM needs to look for better MPG for a low price is the "Easytronic" auto shifting manual. Americans will never buy as many manual transmission cars as the Europeans and these "Dual Clutch" manuals do deliver great MPG with a slight drop in performance over a manual but better than an Automatic. There are even 6-speed Easytronics, so GM would not need to create a 6-speed automatic for small cars.

[editor]

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

GM sold over 200,000 Cobalts last year, Honda sold over 300,000 Civics, hundreds of thousands of corrollas are sold each year and mazda sells almost 100,000k 3's...wtf are you talking about??? Ford sells countless focus' and dodge sells many calibers...

CobaltSScrazy

The key phrase is my post was the one you highlighted yourself - "Those same engines aren't here because they go in small cars which Americans don't buy, for the most part."

There is no doubt that four-cylinder cars sell in substantial numbers, but from a percentage standpoint, those sales are a minority, not a majority.

Let me give you a quick example:

Out of the Top 20 light passenger vehicles sold in the U.S. last year according to Automotive News, an industry publication, the list contained the following four-cylinder cars:

No. 4 – Toyota Corolla/Matrix
No. 6 – Honda Civic
No. 10 - Chevrolet Cobalt
No. 16 – Ford Focus
No. 19 – Honda CR-V

That’s five out of 20 vehicles, or, 25% of the Top 20 vehicles. And the differences in sales are much greater than their rankings would suggest, i.e., the top-selling four-cylinder at No. 4 (Toyota Corolla and Toyota Matrix combined) notched 387,388 sales whereas the No.1 vehicle, the Ford F-150, sold 796,039 units in 2006. So, the actual percentage from a unit perspective is less than 25%.

So, yes, quite a few sales of four-cylinder cars, but those sales do not represent what most Americans buy.

[CaptainDan]

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

GM sold over 200,000 Cobalts last year, Honda sold over 300,000 Civics, hundreds of thousands of corrollas are sold each year and mazda sells almost 100,000k 3's...wtf are you talking about??? Ford sells countless focus' and dodge sells many calibers...

CobaltSScrazy

Compared to the cars sold in Europe and Asia, those are NOT small cars. And they they do NOT come with small engines. They are only small by US big barge standards.

[Citation84]

Originally Posted by ColoradoZQ8

Why all the 2.2 hating?

I disagree -- I bought my Cobalt because of the 2.2's performance.... and the EPA numbers are understated on the Cobalt. I average 37-38 mpg on the Highway with the 5 speed manual. If you want a 1.8 Liter Aveo, fine. But please GM -- don't ruin the Cobalt by axing the wonderful 2.2. Anyone who has driven the torqueless wonders that are known as Civic and Corolla would most likely rather have the Cobalt's 2.2 under the hood

Powertrains have never been a Cobalt weak spot -- its interior plastics, bland styling, etc. that the car needs improvement.

The 2.2 is far more powerful than the base Honda or Toyota junk. The Cobalt's mission ain't an economy car -- its a premium compact. Leave the fuel misers to the Aveo.

I have found the same with my 05 ION Auto: 35-37 under all conditions this last road trip: snow, freezing temps, wind, high altitudes, lots of mtn. climbing, staying with the speed limit and a little above [well; below an obvious ticket generating speed], and it has gotten better than it's EPA #s [City and Highway with the exception of the very 1st tank] for 20,000 [trouble free] miles. However, a smaller version would have been nice [and I would have taken it].Think of the PR potential a Green Line 2.2 ION [or equivalent Cobalt] might have generated for GM regardless whether the improvement was of full hybrid eye popping #s.
Even an E85 capable GM small car will persuade me to trade [and you can't even get it in CA yet].