GM's Hybrids, Hydrogen and Plug-ins are Great but...

[BigRedSpecial]

Originally Posted by THE MIGHTY FOOG

Just for comparison the Cobalt weighs 3200 lbs or so

You might want to check that again - the cobalt weighs in at 2800-2950 for most models; even the SS S/C weighs in at under 3000 lbs. The only compact car currently on the market that weighs ~3200lbs is the Jetta.

As much as I despise the rapidly climbing weights, the cobalt is competitive - the new civic, the Mazda 3, ion, lancer, practically every car in its class weighs in at over 2800 lbs. The only exceptions to this, to my knowledge, are the focus and corolla.


Don't get me wrong, I agree 110% that weight is the best method to control fuel mileage(as well as improve handling, braking, and acceleration), but to say the Cobalt is at a disadvantage here isn't entirely true.

[asim]

Thats very true. GM has some good hybrid systems that they plan to have out really soon. Thats good and everything, but the mainstream I4 engines really aren't that great. They seem to be lagging the competition in power, efficiency, and technology.

[racy]

Originally Posted by Ming

[size=4]
Until GM makes a bold move to do this, buyers in the U.S. will continue to see the General's small cars as lagging in technology and fuel efficiency.

This quote summarizes the whole article. And I agree.

[THE MIGHTY FOOG]

Before posting I normally try to verify any facts that I put in my posts, especially if they don't seem correct. If you don't trust the numbers on Edmunds, let's take it straight from Chevy's website; Cobalt sedan 3216lbs. The coupe does weigh slightly less at 2991lbs. I should have stated that I was comparing sedans as some compact cars do not offer a coupe.

[Road Kill]

Sadly GM already has very fuel efficient and more powerful small engines in Europe and I see no reason why they aren't building them here No or at least importing them as an option. The use of diesels would also be a move in the right direction but there seems to be a resistance on GM's part that is hard to explain.

[dratnol]

Originally Posted by Mags

Bull. Absolute bull. The 'safer' Aveo has some of the worst crash ratings in the industry.

MF

I don't see where he said that the Aveo was safer. I say bull to your statement, I have seen plenty of crash scenes where Echos/Civics were smashed way worse then a larger/heavier car. Not every accident happens at 35 MPH into an offset barrier.

[Ghrankenstein]

The main problem with GMNA's small cars is not the engines, but rather their weight and drag coefficient. The Cobalt is extremely heavy for its size. It is anywhere between 500 to 700lbs heavier than it competition. Just for comparison the Cobalt weighs 3200 lbs or so the Impala with a 3.5 weighs 3550.

This part is spot on. The Deltas are much heavier than the imports; the only one that comes close is the Mazda3. In most incarnations it's beyond the 250 lb threshold for apples-to-apples comparisons with the Deltas in frontal collision crashworthiness. From my experiences, the Deltas also have unnecessarily short gearing.

The 2.2L Ecotec is a brilliant engine, and it's not the reason that the Deltas get lower gas mileage than some (not all) competitors. I agree, a smaller Ecotec option would still be welcome, and probably a hoot.

The E-tec II is not a brilliant engine, and has little reason to exist when GM's global four-cylinder is vastly better, more reliable, and simpler to maintain.

[pinyon]

Right on Ming. I've been saying for a while that the 2.2 and 2.4 are just too close in displacement. They could have two versions of the 2.4 and achieve much the same thing. I'll just echo previous posts.

1.8 economy leader
2.4 workhorse
2.0T performance

That said I also must agree with other here pointing out the weight and transmissions issues. GM has all the tools to do this soon. They need to get busy.

[elderon]

I think the ecotech 2.2 is a great engine. Honestly I think its more power then is really necessary though - at least in my 2750 lbs ish ION. Id trade some of that power for a few MPG better.

[unkillsam]

Originally Posted by THE MIGHTY FOOG

Before posting I normally try to verify any facts that I put in my posts, especially if they don't seem correct. If you don't trust the numbers on Edmunds, let's take it straight from Chevy's website; Cobalt sedan 3216lbs. The coupe does weigh slightly less at 2991lbs. I should have stated that I was comparing sedans as some compact cars do not offer a coupe.

Unfortunately Edmunds takes their number's straight from Chevrolet US website which has not updated the correct Cobalt information since 2005.

Check this site out, it is the correct info as verified by many people I know putting their Cobalts on industrial scales.

http://www.gmcanada.com/english/vehi.../coba_opti.jsp

As you can see the Cobalt has a range between 2,730 lbs for a base model sedan to 2,925 for a SS/SC coupe.

So, really, the cobalt is about the same as a Civic weight wise, it is also a heck of a lot faster in base trim, thus the fuel economy disadvantage.

I rather have some decent torque and feel safe merging onto a freeway then be driving a 40 mpg gutless wonder that can't merge safely without downshifting 2 or 3 gears.

BTW I average 34.5 MPG just cruising at 65 mph with my 205 horsepower 3,000 lbs Cobalt SS/SC (sunroof and aftermarket seats add some weight)

I'll take that all day long thank you very much.

[genjy]

Originally Posted by unkillsam

I rather have some decent torque and feel safe merging onto a freeway then be driving a 40 mpg gutless wonder that can't merge safely without downshifting 2 or 3 gears.

Oh yes. I see econo-compacts crash on freeway onramps ALL THE TIME. It's surprising how there are still so many of them on the road.

Yesterday, five Civics almost crashed onto my car because they weren't going 70 mph while merging!

[THE MIGHTY FOOG]

I stand corrected, apparently.

[lkimura]

Its rumoured that GM will bring the Opel Corsa to the US badged as a Saturn. I hope this comes true. This is a small car with a variety of small gas and desiel engines. In Europe this is GM's most popular car, and its economy leader.

I've driven an 03 1200 cc Corsa, and let me tell you it has no problems getting on the motorways and easily maintaining the 130 kph (82 mph) speeds that are common in Europe, and this with air conditioning and all the creature comforts we here in the US expect in a well built car.

I agree, GM need's to downsize their engineens, but a significant loss of performance will not be tolerated. My experience with the Corsa tells me GM has cars with performance, comfort and economy which I believe, can satisfy the American public.

[john1701a]

Originally Posted by lkimura

I agree, GM need's to downsize their engineens, but a significant loss of performance will not be tolerated.

That's way I pushed so hard many many years ago, to find out what was the limit for mainstream acceptance. The consensus emerged as a 0-60 acceleration in 10 seconds... which is what the new Prius ended up delivering. (10.1 actually, but faster if you use higher PSI and E10 for fuel).

Hearing about some of the older EU vehicles taking well in excess of 15 seconds pretty much meant a doomed rollout in the US. Waiting for faster new models was necessary.

JOHN

[Ming]

Originally Posted by elderon

I think the ecotech 2.2 is a great engine. Honestly I think its more power then is really necessary though - at least in my 2750 lbs ish ION. Id trade some of that power for a few MPG better.

My father has an old stick-shift Saturn he keeps around just for the great fuel economy and mostly trouble free performance that the car delivers. Has a 1.9L SOHC engine, IIRC.