Future for Pontiac

**paul8488** · 10-27-2006, 08:00 AM

We're all sick of "here's what I think each GM brand should do" threads... so here's another one. As Saturn gains traction I see less and less use for Pontiac as it is. In an emotional Pontiac-fan sense I'd hate to see it change its mission statement, but what can Pontiac do that Saturn can't? With an Astra and Corsa to compliment the Aura sedan, a Vectra wagon, the Outlook and Vue SUVs, and the Sky roadster, in regular and RedLine versions, where do you see Pontiac offering an edge? I think the RedLine Saturn series is exactly where Pontiac could have sat, but it's now redundant.

GM's ever-increasing pile of global platforms and vehicles gives their North American divisions even more to pick and chose from. I really see three 'types' of vehicles in North America: American, European, and Asian. As Chevrolet and Saturn find their grooves (Chevrolet is and should stay American, and Saturn is starting to offer US buyers Euro-tinted vechicles), I am starting to see a place for Pontiac. Why not let it evolve to be an even more pointed Asian-inspired brand?

Pontiac fans would call that sacrilege, and they're right, I guess. Still, with Chevrolet being American based and Saturn being Euro based, does it not make sense for a third GM brand to pull on the best Asian products GM has? There's simply no room for a new nameplate at GM, but I almost see a 'Geo' or 'Asuna' vision for Pontiac.

There's a good crop of GMDAT cars ready and waiting to be used. The few remaining ones that haven't been redone recently (Lacetti sedan, hatch and wagon, Aveo wagon, Matiz mini-wagon, and Rezzo mini-minivan) would certainly need a refreshing, but the Captiva, Aveo sedan, and Epica are fresh out of the redesign box and ready to hit American soil.

I would like to see Pontiac be the ONLY outlet for GMDAT cars in North America. Adding a model here and there forces GM to spread development dollars too thin, and we end up with a G5 identical to a Cobalt, or Wave identical to an Aveo. Using ALL Pontiac design dollars on exisiting vehicles such as the GMDAT's would allow for much greater visual differentiation. Swapping a Chevy badge for a Pontiac arrowhead wouldn't be enough... but the new GMDAT cars have some very clean, modern lines, and distinct front and rear ends and interior treatments could go a long way to making these vehicles true Pontiacs. Eliminating overlap (since Chevy-badged GMDATs will ideally stay outside of North America) will make this new crop of Pontiacs appear even fresher and unique.

Not only would this give Pontiac dealers something different to sell than the local Chevrolet or Saturn dealers, but it would allow them to have a full lineup without the worry of too much direct overlap. I could easily see all the current GMDATs in a North American Pontiac lineup:

Firefly- Bring back the Firefly name for a sub-subcompact based on the uber-small Matiz. You say there's no market for it? Create one. Americans have seen the advantage of small cars like the Aveo, Yaris, and Fit, so I believe many could be enticed to go even smaller and cheaper with a cute little Firefly. Make it the cheapest car in the US.

Wave- Already exists in Canada. The 5-door Aveo/Wave needs a revamp, and the engines need to drink a little less, but the design suits Pontiac nicely.

Pursuit- Can the current G5, and let Chev and Saturn have delta-based cars. Let Pontiac have the upcoming Lacetti/WRTCC Ultra hatch, and bring out a sedan version too. The sharp looks would attract people bored by the Cobalt and who want something a little more extrovert than the classy but tame Astra.

Grand Am- Adios epsilon-based G6. The Epica is sitting patiently on the sidelines, just begging to come to North America. Pontiac should keep its sporty flair, so an engine upgrade would maybe be necessary, but some gentle cosmetic surgery could help slot the Epica into a Pontiac suit. No 2-door version exists right now, but would be a welcome addition.

Vibe- Wouldn't be quite the same vehicle, but a reskinned Rezzo (a goofy looking Daewoo-holdover begging for a new design) could work very well as a GM (not Toyota) sourced Vibe replacement. Make an AWD version too, as before, and call it Safari.

Torrent- As with the Epica, the Captiva would love to make a North American appearance. The theta platform will pay for itself with the Equinox and Vue on it... let the next Torrent be a slightly smaller but more unique CUV. Wouldn't take much to transform the clean lines of the Captiva into a Pontiac.

That's my vision of Pontiac. It would nicely handle the likes of Hyundai and Kia, and even some of the smaller Japenese vehicles. It would position GM well to fend off any upcoming Chinese vehicles, as GMDAT cars can generally be sold at competitive prices. Why not pull a RedLine-like move and offer all Pontiacs in GXP version. Or have a triple lineup... regular gasoline powered Pontiacs with an emphasis on value and economy, GXP versions with supercharged engines for the performance oriented, and diesel-powered Pontiacs for utlimate economy and durability appeal.

The Solstice is a great Pontiac, and could stay, or the production capacity could be used to make a kappa-based Chevy (aka Nomad). The G6 convertible was clearly a huge investment, but I think that could be recouped if Saturn got a hardtop convertible Aura. Not much other cash has been spent on Pontiac lately, so I don't think it would be a huge waste to swith gears for Pontiac. A potential Holden-based Pontiac Grand Prix or Bonneville could maybe still fit the bill, or it could instead become a Buick and/or big Chevrolet. Oh, and I don't like alhpanumeric names all that much, so I'd rather see a comeback of real Pontiac names.

As much as I don't REALLY like the idea of pimping out Pontiac as a Korean-car dumping ground, I like the idea of Pontiac becoming completley irrelevant even less.

rsabatini · 10-27-2006, 01:47 PM

Being a Pontiac-Only individual for 50% of my life, I find it hard to fathom this division being the one to compete with the likes of Hyundai and KIA. Perhaps Saturn would be better, fending-off the influx of Oriental-Built vehicles into our country.

It would be quite the pill to swallow for those of us that grew up with 428 Bonnevilles, 421 HO 2+2's, 455 Super Dutys and Tri-Powered GTO's, to see Pontiac relegated to such a role in the domestic scene. Our satisfying scenario would be, to see Pontiac regain it's aggressive styling and performance it once had, than to be merely castrated.

However, your article is very good, in that it should spark a lot of feedback!!!

**GMCSonoma** · 10-27-2006, 02:46 PM

IMO what Pontiac needs to do in order to survive...rebadged Holdens...

They'd be unique to North America, much like Saturn with the Vauxhall/Opel...leave GMDAT's with Chevy...

darndot · 10-27-2006, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMCSonoma

IMO what Pontiac needs to do in order to survive...rebadged Holdens...

They'd be unique to North America, much like Saturn with the Vauxhall/Opel...leave GMDAT's with Chevy...

I think there would be a great market for rebadged holden's, but I think we can build them here.

**GMCSonoma** · 10-27-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darndot

I think there would be a great market for rebadged holden's, but I think we can build them here.

Even better!

throwback · 10-27-2006, 02:54 PM

I think the rumored rear drive only switch makes a lot of sense. I would have the following Pontiacs: Solstice, small rear drive entry level car (off the (Torano?) mid-size platform or a new G6, Grand Prix off the Zeta and a Bonneville of the larger Zeta platform. GTO off the mid-size platform. Please no alpha numeric names.

TahoeMikeZ71 · 10-27-2006, 02:58 PM

Bring back the Bonneville.

Kheiron · 10-27-2006, 03:33 PM

erg I don't know what to think with pontiac. there is no clear direction and evidently a HUGE lack of investment on GM's part...Being completely objective, if I wanted a maverick or rebel or "fast" car from a youth inspired division...I'd buy a dodge. Pontiac is like Dodge's B*tch, yeah it looks nice and all, but you can manhandle it any way you want. Honestly, a GT or GTP or GXP, all of them worthless next to their R/T or SRT counterparts at Dodge. (Ok MAYBE I'll ease up and make an exception w/ the Solstice GXP, but only b/c dodge doesn't have a vehicle to compete with that, and the 2.0L T is awesome)...but the rest of the lineup gets beat any day of the week. Ok, so we get the hardtop vert G6, the INTERIOR BLOWS! consequently, I won't have it and guess how few verts GM makes...exactly not too many relatively speaking.

Pick a direction, put your money where your mouth is GM, and stick with it for more than 5 years (unlike Olds, where you finally gave it decent product but didn't let it capitalize and screwed it over with horrid marketing)...end rant.

-Kheiron

Greg Burr · 10-27-2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMCSonoma

IMO what Pontiac needs to do in order to survive...rebadged Holdens...

They'd be unique to North America, much like Saturn with the Vauxhall/Opel...leave GMDAT's with Chevy...

Agreed. Maybe like a boutique, high performance brand.

Butz · 10-27-2006, 03:43 PM

Holdens for Pontiac not GMDATs! Pontiac had a Daewoo in the past so an entry level Pontiac based on the next gen Optra5 is possible as long as it gets a turbocharged engine and can do 0-60 in less than 7 seconds.

throwback · 10-27-2006, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kheiron

erg I don't know what to think with pontiac. there is no clear direction and evidently a HUGE lack of investment on GM's part...Being completely objective, if I wanted a maverick or rebel or "fast" car from a youth inspired division...I'd buy a dodge. Pontiac is like Dodge's B*tch, yeah it looks nice and all, but you can manhandle it any way you want. Honestly, a GT or GTP or GXP, all of them worthless next to their R/T or SRT counterparts at Dodge. (Ok MAYBE I'll ease up and make an exception w/ the Solstice GXP, but only b/c dodge doesn't have a vehicle to compete with that, and the 2.0L T is awesome)...but the rest of the lineup gets beat any day of the week. Ok, so we get the hardtop vert G6, the INTERIOR BLOWS! consequently, I won't have it and guess how few verts GM makes...exactly not too many relatively speaking.

Pick a direction, put your money where your mouth is GM, and stick with it for more than 5 years (unlike Olds, where you finally gave it decent product but didn't let it capitalize and screwed it over with horrid marketing)...end rant.

-Kheiron

All true. Pontiac either needs to become a performance division again or expire. Otherwise what is the point? GM can not keep re-inventing divisions, it's costly and counterproductive.

pistolpete51688 · 10-27-2006, 03:49 PM

pontiac needs to become a performance division catering to niche markets. the only vehicles that should be produced by pontiac are coupes, sedans, and convertibles. this means no crossovers, suvs or minivans!! all pontiacs should be rwd or possibly awd with an emphasis on performance and in your face styling

ghughes · 10-27-2006, 03:53 PM

No - you cannot change the identity of a brand so radically. It would cost too much - i.e. Wonderbread is now going to sell soup, only.
Pontiac's mission should be sports cars- the prob. is they just arent BMWs and it costs too much to get there.
They stand for something in the consumers mind (but the products havent been there for 30 years.) . I like the GM revit. team idea, but drop the G5. 3 or 4 muscle cars and their g6 idea.

mikesright · 10-27-2006, 03:55 PM

GMDAT is great and all, but instead of going with a specific brand or something, they should be doing what GM is already making them do for us here, and that's be an inexpensive production source and a good platform engineering team for small cars and SUV's.

Pontiac needs to be the performance division, with aggressive styling that is unique and american. Otherwise, shoot the dang thing dead. If someone feels like bringing GMDAT here as a brand, and as a lance against Kia and Hyundai, use the word "Daewoo." It screams Korean.

General STL · 10-27-2006, 03:59 PM

While this commentary was a good read, I have to agree with throwback and kheiron........Pontiac must be pure performance. No 'greenline' type hybrid crap, just base models and GXP's......sort of like how Mazda and Dodge do it. Put power with distinct design and Pontiac could do nothing but sell. I for one am a big fan of the arrow-head fascia design that was on that bright orange concept GTO.
As for going to rwd, I think the low-end G5 should still be fwd. Just my opinion.

10-27-2006, 08:00 AM	#1 (permalink)
paul8488 GMI Staff Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: France Drives: 2007 MBK Flipper Scooter Posts: 12,756	Future for Pontiac We're all sick of "here's what I think each GM brand should do" threads... so here's another one. As Saturn gains traction I see less and less use for Pontiac as it is. In an emotional Pontiac-fan sense I'd hate to see it change its mission statement, but what can Pontiac do that Saturn can't? With an Astra and Corsa to compliment the Aura sedan, a Vectra wagon, the Outlook and Vue SUVs, and the Sky roadster, in regular and RedLine versions, where do you see Pontiac offering an edge? I think the RedLine Saturn series is exactly where Pontiac could have sat, but it's now redundant. GM's ever-increasing pile of global platforms and vehicles gives their North American divisions even more to pick and chose from. I really see three 'types' of vehicles in North America: American, European, and Asian. As Chevrolet and Saturn find their grooves (Chevrolet is and should stay American, and Saturn is starting to offer US buyers Euro-tinted vechicles), I am starting to see a place for Pontiac. Why not let it evolve to be an even more pointed Asian-inspired brand? Pontiac fans would call that sacrilege, and they're right, I guess. Still, with Chevrolet being American based and Saturn being Euro based, does it not make sense for a third GM brand to pull on the best Asian products GM has? There's simply no room for a new nameplate at GM, but I almost see a 'Geo' or 'Asuna' vision for Pontiac. There's a good crop of GMDAT cars ready and waiting to be used. The few remaining ones that haven't been redone recently (Lacetti sedan, hatch and wagon, Aveo wagon, Matiz mini-wagon, and Rezzo mini-minivan) would certainly need a refreshing, but the Captiva, Aveo sedan, and Epica are fresh out of the redesign box and ready to hit American soil. I would like to see Pontiac be the ONLY outlet for GMDAT cars in North America. Adding a model here and there forces GM to spread development dollars too thin, and we end up with a G5 identical to a Cobalt, or Wave identical to an Aveo. Using ALL Pontiac design dollars on exisiting vehicles such as the GMDAT's would allow for much greater visual differentiation. Swapping a Chevy badge for a Pontiac arrowhead wouldn't be enough... but the new GMDAT cars have some very clean, modern lines, and distinct front and rear ends and interior treatments could go a long way to making these vehicles true Pontiacs. Eliminating overlap (since Chevy-badged GMDATs will ideally stay outside of North America) will make this new crop of Pontiacs appear even fresher and unique. Not only would this give Pontiac dealers something different to sell than the local Chevrolet or Saturn dealers, but it would allow them to have a full lineup without the worry of too much direct overlap. I could easily see all the current GMDATs in a North American Pontiac lineup: Firefly- Bring back the Firefly name for a sub-subcompact based on the uber-small Matiz. You say there's no market for it? Create one. Americans have seen the advantage of small cars like the Aveo, Yaris, and Fit, so I believe many could be enticed to go even smaller and cheaper with a cute little Firefly. Make it the cheapest car in the US. Wave- Already exists in Canada. The 5-door Aveo/Wave needs a revamp, and the engines need to drink a little less, but the design suits Pontiac nicely. Pursuit- Can the current G5, and let Chev and Saturn have delta-based cars. Let Pontiac have the upcoming Lacetti/WRTCC Ultra hatch, and bring out a sedan version too. The sharp looks would attract people bored by the Cobalt and who want something a little more extrovert than the classy but tame Astra. Grand Am- Adios epsilon-based G6. The Epica is sitting patiently on the sidelines, just begging to come to North America. Pontiac should keep its sporty flair, so an engine upgrade would maybe be necessary, but some gentle cosmetic surgery could help slot the Epica into a Pontiac suit. No 2-door version exists right now, but would be a welcome addition. Vibe- Wouldn't be quite the same vehicle, but a reskinned Rezzo (a goofy looking Daewoo-holdover begging for a new design) could work very well as a GM (not Toyota) sourced Vibe replacement. Make an AWD version too, as before, and call it Safari. Torrent- As with the Epica, the Captiva would love to make a North American appearance. The theta platform will pay for itself with the Equinox and Vue on it... let the next Torrent be a slightly smaller but more unique CUV. Wouldn't take much to transform the clean lines of the Captiva into a Pontiac. That's my vision of Pontiac. It would nicely handle the likes of Hyundai and Kia, and even some of the smaller Japenese vehicles. It would position GM well to fend off any upcoming Chinese vehicles, as GMDAT cars can generally be sold at competitive prices. Why not pull a RedLine-like move and offer all Pontiacs in GXP version. Or have a triple lineup... regular gasoline powered Pontiacs with an emphasis on value and economy, GXP versions with supercharged engines for the performance oriented, and diesel-powered Pontiacs for utlimate economy and durability appeal. The Solstice is a great Pontiac, and could stay, or the production capacity could be used to make a kappa-based Chevy (aka Nomad). The G6 convertible was clearly a huge investment, but I think that could be recouped if Saturn got a hardtop convertible Aura. Not much other cash has been spent on Pontiac lately, so I don't think it would be a huge waste to swith gears for Pontiac. A potential Holden-based Pontiac Grand Prix or Bonneville could maybe still fit the bill, or it could instead become a Buick and/or big Chevrolet. Oh, and I don't like alhpanumeric names all that much, so I'd rather see a comeback of real Pontiac names. As much as I don't REALLY like the idea of pimping out Pontiac as a Korean-car dumping ground, I like the idea of Pontiac becoming completley irrelevant even less. __________________ *The department of redundancy department.* Last edited by paul8488 : 10-27-2006 at 08:02 AM.

10-27-2006, 01:47 PM	#2 (permalink)
rsabatini 3.5 Liter V6 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Houston, Texas Drives: 2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab ZQ8 Posts: 227	Re: Future for Pontiac Being a Pontiac-Only individual for 50% of my life, I find it hard to fathom this division being the one to compete with the likes of Hyundai and KIA. Perhaps Saturn would be better, fending-off the influx of Oriental-Built vehicles into our country. It would be quite the pill to swallow for those of us that grew up with 428 Bonnevilles, 421 HO 2+2's, 455 Super Dutys and Tri-Powered GTO's, to see Pontiac relegated to such a role in the domestic scene. Our satisfying scenario would be, to see Pontiac regain it's aggressive styling and performance it once had, than to be merely castrated. However, your article is very good, in that it should spark a lot of feedback!!! __________________ GMC's Previously Owned: 1967 GTO, 1970 Trans Am Ram Air 1975 Trans Am, 1979 Trans Am 400 1980 Z28, 1997 Sonoma ZQ8. Current GM Product: 2006 GMC Canyon Crew Cab ZQ8 All Vehicles 100% Made in U.S.A.

10-27-2006, 02:46 PM	#3 (permalink)
GMCSonoma GMI Fixed Ops Contributor Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: behind the parts counter Drives: 31MPG '98 Park Avenue; 21MPG '93 Roadmaster Posts: 8,463	Re: Future for Pontiac IMO what Pontiac needs to do in order to survive...rebadged Holdens... They'd be unique to North America, much like Saturn with the Vauxhall/Opel...leave GMDAT's with Chevy... __________________ certified GM Dealer Parts Manager since 1994 GM Dealer Parts employee since 1987 AMC-Jeep-Renault Dealer Parts employee 1987-90 holder of many GM accredations, too numerous to list

10-27-2006, 02:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
throwback 3.9 Liter V6 Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 935	Re: Future for Pontiac I think the rumored rear drive only switch makes a lot of sense. I would have the following Pontiacs: Solstice, small rear drive entry level car (off the (Torano?) mid-size platform or a new G6, Grand Prix off the Zeta and a Bonneville of the larger Zeta platform. GTO off the mid-size platform. Please no alpha numeric names.

10-27-2006, 02:58 PM	#7 (permalink)
TahoeMikeZ71 7.0 Liter LS7 V8 Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5,419	Re: Future for Pontiac Bring back the Bonneville. __________________

Remove Advertisements Sponsored Links
GM Inside News Forum Advertisement

10-27-2006, 03:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kheiron Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 933	Re: Future for Pontiac erg I don't know what to think with pontiac. there is no clear direction and evidently a HUGE lack of investment on GM's part...Being completely objective, if I wanted a maverick or rebel or "fast" car from a youth inspired division...I'd buy a dodge. Pontiac is like Dodge's B*tch, yeah it looks nice and all, but you can manhandle it any way you want. Honestly, a GT or GTP or GXP, all of them worthless next to their R/T or SRT counterparts at Dodge. (Ok MAYBE I'll ease up and make an exception w/ the Solstice GXP, but only b/c dodge doesn't have a vehicle to compete with that, and the 2.0L T is awesome)...but the rest of the lineup gets beat any day of the week. Ok, so we get the hardtop vert G6, the INTERIOR BLOWS! consequently, I won't have it and guess how few verts GM makes...exactly not too many relatively speaking. Pick a direction, put your money where your mouth is GM, and stick with it for more than 5 years (unlike Olds, where you finally gave it decent product but didn't let it capitalize and screwed it over with horrid marketing)...end rant. -Kheiron

10-27-2006, 03:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
pistolpete51688 3.5 Liter V6 Join Date: Mar 2006 Drives: 1994 VW Jetta Posts: 237	Re: Future for Pontiac pontiac needs to become a performance division catering to niche markets. the only vehicles that should be produced by pontiac are coupes, sedans, and convertibles. this means no crossovers, suvs or minivans!! all pontiacs should be rwd or possibly awd with an emphasis on performance and in your face styling

10-27-2006, 03:53 PM	#13 (permalink)
ghughes 3.9 Liter V6 Join Date: Dec 2004 Drives: '98 H1 Open-top HMVEE! '67 Rolls Silver Shadow ' Posts: 988	Re: Future for Pontiac No - you cannot change the identity of a brand so radically. It would cost too much - i.e. Wonderbread is now going to sell soup, only. Pontiac's mission should be sports cars- the prob. is they just arent BMWs and it costs too much to get there. They stand for something in the consumers mind (but the products havent been there for 30 years.) . I like the GM revit. team idea, but drop the G5. 3 or 4 muscle cars and their g6 idea.

10-27-2006, 03:55 PM	#14 (permalink)
mikesright 3.9 Liter V6 Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Des Moines, IA Drives: 2001 Chrysler Concorde LXi Can't beat $300 for Posts: 992	Re: Future for Pontiac GMDAT is great and all, but instead of going with a specific brand or something, they should be doing what GM is already making them do for us here, and that's be an inexpensive production source and a good platform engineering team for small cars and SUV's. Pontiac needs to be the performance division, with aggressive styling that is unique and american. Otherwise, shoot the dang thing dead. If someone feels like bringing GMDAT here as a brand, and as a lance against Kia and Hyundai, use the word "Daewoo." It screams Korean. __________________ -What megeebee said

10-27-2006, 03:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
General STL 2.4 Liter ECOTEC Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: The Gateway City Drives: 2000 Olds Intrigue GL a.k.a. "Bird" Posts: 114	Re: Future for Pontiac While this commentary was a good read, I have to agree with throwback and kheiron........Pontiac must be pure performance. No 'greenline' type hybrid crap, just base models and GXP's......sort of like how Mazda and Dodge do it. Put power with distinct design and Pontiac could do nothing but sell. I for one am a big fan of the arrow-head fascia design that was on that bright orange concept GTO. As for going to rwd, I think the low-end G5 should still be fwd. Just my opinion. __________________ You know who it is........it's me snitches!!!

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode