Doom And Gloom: A Big Al Rant

[TimR]

Originally Posted by dindak

Picking on GM while ignoring the numerous problems hitting other auto makers seems to be a national pastime for the U.S. media. I will never understand it.

I bought 1000 shares of GM stock yesterday at $10.18. I know I will make money because this is all way overdone.

Just for fun I bought some too

I really think GM might pull off a recovery yet...no matter what you do though there will be people saying "See, I told ya so!"....so I guess we'll see in a couple years either way

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by ScottS

The media puts a focus on GM because they are the biggest and have for so many years represented so much of America's manufacturing. As economic times went, so went GM.

If the entire fast food industry went to hell, are you going to hear stories about Checkers, or McDonalds?

When the pharmaceutical industry is under fire, are you going to hear about Pfizer first, or Biogen?

Talk is cheap. You can complain about the Volt not getting press, but the fact is a production model does not exist.

Thats fine, but you missed the point. The Volt exists as engineering prototypes, but they rip on this idea that GM shot down, that thebatteries will not hold up. GM has done millions of tests on them, have put them through so many cycle tests, jamed 10 years of testing into 3 years, to make sure that these will not fail. But the reports still rip on GM



You and Trishield are missing the point I was trying to make.
I am not blaming the media for GM's problems. I am not saying that other comapnies are the reason that GM has problems. What Im saying is that the doom and gloom gets poured on pretty thick, even though GM does in fact make several cars that do very well.
The press puts GM in a poor light at every given chance it has. If gas prices are high, they talk about GM as if they only sell gas guzzling trucks while Toyota and Nissan get passes for thier massive gas guzzling pick ups.
They talk about advance hyrbid technology, and praise Toyota for the Prius when GM also offers a mild version and a true hyrbid system that is actually more advanced then the Toyota system.
When they talk about hyrdogen innovation, they dont applaud GM's efforts over the past decade to bring them out. The Hyrdogen cars that GM has made were laughed at, and critics were brought on to say that hyrdogen cars wont work.
Then Honda shows a chubby Civic with a hyrdogen fuel cell in it, and its going to remove us from the pain of oil!!
See the point here?
Its the doom and gloom, that GM sucks, they make big trucks and suv's, they make poor quality cars, and that they are all gunna go bankrupt because people stopped buying SUV's and Trucks.
Its never highlighting the advancements that GM has made in lithium ion battery technology, or even just talking about the Volt, or any hydrogen cars that GM has built already, or already has on the streets!! The 300 Equinox's that are on the road now were out months ago, and 3x the numbers the Clarity will be built at!!

[TriShield]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

What Im saying is that the doom and gloom gets poured on pretty thick, even though GM does in fact make several cars that do very well.
The press puts GM in a poor light at every given chance it has. If gas prices are high, they talk about GM as if they only sell gas guzzling trucks while Toyota and Nissan get passes for thier massive gas guzzling pick ups.
They talk about advance hyrbid technology, and praise Toyota for the Prius when GM also offers a mild version and a true hyrbid system that is actually more advanced then the Toyota system.
When they talk about hyrdogen innovation, they dont applaud GM's efforts over the past decade to bring them out. The Hyrdogen cars that GM has made were laughed at, and critics were brought on to say that hyrdogen cars wont work.
Then Honda shows a chubby Civic with a hyrdogen fuel cell in it, and its going to remove us from the pain of oil!!
See the point here?
Its the doom and gloom, that GM sucks, they make big trucks and suv's, they make poor quality cars, and that they are all gunna go bankrupt because people stopped buying SUV's and Trucks.
Its never highlighting the advancements that GM has made in lithium ion battery technology, or even just talking about the Volt, or any hydrogen cars that GM has built already, or already has on the streets!! The 300 Equinox's that are on the road now were out months ago, and 3x the numbers the Clarity will be built at!!

What do you honestly expect when the world's largest automaker and one of the industrial giants of this country is on the verge of going bust? That's pretty big news.

What GM cars are "doing well"? If that were true the company would be turning a profit and would not be losing marketshare at an ever accelerating rate. They also would not be in the national news with bankruptcy in the same sentence.

GM virtually banks their entire operation on trucks and have ignored cars. Nissan and Toyota did not and never have. They already have a reputation for making great cars that GM does not and are not dependent on them. They have a diversified product portfolio that is strong in every class. Not too mention both companies are flush with wealth because of that.

GM does not offer a hybrid car that is more advanced than the Prius. They thought it would be a better idea to put a 2-mode system in huge, expensive SUVs that nobody wants. Again, every egg in the truck basket. Completely dependent on trucks.

GM made the EV1, then buried it instead of using it to bolster their image. It was deemed unimportant and a waste of money. GM toys with hydrogen but it's efforts are clearly half hearted and again it is not promoted. The Japanese take the concept, refine it to perfect, and market it perfectly.

The company gave up on cars and concentrated on trucks for the past 15 years. It's little wonder that GM is synonymous with big, gas-guzzling trucks and not cars like Toyota, Honda or Nissan.

Do you see a pattern here? It's been there for decades now.

[BigAls87Z28]

I understand, but like Toyota had the ability to play to the greenies, GM was there for the people that wanted to buy these big expensive SUV's. While Hind sight is 20/20, GM gave people what they wanted, bigger and bigger SUV's. In any business, your highest profit widget is selling at unbeliveable levels and demand is increasing, why shut it down and switch to less profitable widgets?
With that said, GM did take thier eye off the ball with passanger cars, but thats been that way since the 80's.
Ill say it right now, the 2004 Malibu was the FIRST passanger car GM made that actually was better then expectations. Only thing is that a year later, everyone one-upped the Malibu, but it set teh stage for the 08 Malibu.

I am not saying that GM should take zero blame for its focus on trucks and eye off the car market, but its not like they are still doing that. It is not like GM is not pumping out the same cars they were 20-25 years ago.

The two-mode system was put into trucks because the profit of the trucks overall could pay for the R&D for it so it could be moved into smaller trucks and cars.
This isnt about GM's profit, its the grave that the media digs every time there is problem, GM is the first one to be burried.

My point I said in the rant is the fact that every single media source had GM pegged for #2 for June, while Toyota and its gas-friendly super greenie cars would post a gain while GM posted a huge loss.
While GM posted a lost, Toyota took it harder. But was any attention brought on that? I wish I could have taped it, but I was sitting at work and the news anchor was almost amazed that Toyota did NOT beat GM because, as she put it, Toyota makes cars like the Prius and Yaris.

[Get_ A_Clue]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

You and Trishield are missing the point I was trying to make.
I am not blaming the media for GM's problems. I am not saying that other comapnies are the reason that GM has problems. What Im saying is that the doom and gloom gets poured on pretty thick, even though GM does in fact make several cars that do very well.
The press puts GM in a poor light at every given chance it has. If gas prices are high, they talk about GM as if they only sell gas guzzling trucks while Toyota and Nissan get passes for thier massive gas guzzling pick ups.
They talk about advance hyrbid technology, and praise Toyota for the Prius when GM also offers a mild version and a true hyrbid system that is actually more advanced then the Toyota system.

Unfortunately you and all the other GM apologists STILL don't get it. It doesn't matter if Toyota and Nissan have gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs because they have a VERY DIVERSIFIED product lineup. Why don't you people get that? Those evil imports have a product in every segment (including full size trucks and SUVs) which is what you do when you're a smart company: you bring customers in for whichever size car they want, then hope they keep coming back and trading up. Detroit has royally f'd this up - they've abandoned whole segments (small cars, minivans, hot hatches, luxury cars) because they've given us half-baked, half-assed attempts that the public has not embraced. Then, rather than improve them, they retreat and exit the segment.

GM has hybrids? No way! And on what vehicles does GM offer these amazing, technological marvels? Yes, that's right - on its largest vehicles with the highest price tags. And who buys these? People who most likely could give a rat if gas went to $6. They just don't get it! Meanwhile, Toyota is churning out the Prius, Honda is churning out the Civic.... and GM is churning out the... Cobalt? Aveo? Please.

Is that the media's fault? Is that Toyota's fault? The main reason why rants like yours are so frustrating is that blame is tossed everywhere EXCEPT at where it is most deserved: Detroit management. They never apologize. They never admit mistakes. Instead of making the finest automobiles, they seem to run PR houses - endlessly pumping out bullsh*t press releases blaming slow sales on everything from gas prices to the housing crisis to the civil unrest in Guinea Bissau. Get a grip. If GM couldn't see this coming, or at least had a Plan B in case it did, they're not paying attention.

I have a feeling that if GM was wasting your money, you'd be much more critical of their actions and poor business practices and would demand change.

[tgunnd39]

Originally Posted by Get_ A_Clue

Unfortunately you and all the other GM apologists STILL don't get it. It doesn't matter if Toyota and Nissan have gas-guzzling trucks and SUVs because they have a VERY DIVERSIFIED product lineup. Why don't you people get that? Those evil imports have a product in every segment (including full size trucks and SUVs) which is what you do when you're a smart company: you bring customers in for whichever size car they want, then hope they keep coming back and trading up. Detroit has royally f'd this up - they've abandoned whole segments (small cars, minivans, hot hatches, luxury cars) because they've given us half-baked, half-assed attempts that the public has not embraced. Then, rather than improve them, they retreat and exit the segment.

GM has hybrids? No way! And on what vehicles does GM offer these amazing, technological marvels? Yes, that's right - on its largest vehicles with the highest price tags. And who buys these? People who most likely could give a rat if gas went to $6. They just don't get it! Meanwhile, Toyota is churning out the Prius, Honda is churning out the Civic.... and GM is churning out the... Cobalt? Aveo? Please.

Is that the media's fault? Is that Toyota's fault? The main reason why rants like yours are so frustrating is that blame is tossed everywhere EXCEPT at where it is most deserved: Detroit management. They never apologize. They never admit mistakes. Instead of making the finest automobiles, they seem to run PR houses - endlessly pumping out bullsh*t press releases blaming slow sales on everything from gas prices to the housing crisis to the civil unrest in Guinea Bissau. Get a grip. If GM couldn't see this coming, or at least had a Plan B in case it did, they're not paying attention.

I have a feeling that if GM was wasting your money, you'd be much more critical of their actions and poor business practices and would demand change.

Go back and drink your Toyota Kool-Aid, because until you get your facts right, don't call GM out for not doing what is right.

Fact: In addition to the Tahoe hybrid, GM also sells the Saturn Vue Hybrid, Aura Hybrid, Malibu Hybrid and the Silverado Hybrid.

Fact: Minivans were economic losers for all but Chrysler; GM and Ford abandoned them to introduce a smaller line of SUVs; to whit, Outlook/Acadia/Enclave/Traverse and Ford Edge. Smart business decision. Yes, GM and Ford could have done better, and they should have, however, exiting a money losing segment makes total business sense. And isn't business sense what we are talking about here?

Fact: No one has a more diversified product mix than GM. Perhaps too diversified. Again, no one made millions of Americans buy gas-guzzling SUVs, however, GM made them and people bought them in droves. Another smart business decision. Don't believe it, then why did Toyota intro a not-so-fuel efficient Tundra pickup and Highlander SUV in 2007? Oh wait, Toyota cannot make mistakes, Toyota cannot mistakes...

No one saw this gas issue coming, and if you say you did then you are probably also selling prime ocean front property in Arizona?

Everyone has been caught flat-footed by this economic travesty in the US. Just as all boats rise and fall equally, so does everything else.

My .02

[vcs2600]

When gas prices were going north of $3 after Katrina, GM blew their load blanketing the airwaves with advertisements for Tahoe, Silverado, and Hummer. And now you guys have the gaul to complain that GM is getting a bad rap?

Furthermore, they spent decades building an incentive and fleet-based sales model that left them looking like the K-Mart of Cars.

I know it's fun to blame the media for everything, but GM worked very assiduously to destroy the image of their corporation and it's brands.

[PAULSTS1]

Originally Posted by mbukukanyau

GM has the Korean Nuke option. Toyota simply cannot compete on cost, also, Toyota vehicles are overpriced, that is why Toyota took a hit.
The Big story is, Toyota will have to lower its pricing to compete in this economy, and that will upset their profitability and all their business projections.
GM is going to be Numero uno.

Has anyone ever priced a Honda Fit? You do it, and you will understand why Honda is smaller than Hyundai today.
Paying S40 prices for a Fit? Not me

Mbukukanyau:

What you are observing with the cost of Japanese products is more about the USA DOLLAR devaluation than the pricing structure of the vehicles of choice. Yes, it is definitely more expensive to buy a Camry or a Corolla, because of the higher Yen value, it takes more dollars to convert. The exceptions are those vehicles produced in the USA. These should sell well outside the USA for the reverse reasons.

For GM it's goal should be to be profitable, being number one with red ink, indicates you are still facing bankruptcy. On the technology front, GM needs to go hydrogen and forget the expensive battery wars. Battery technology is about 8 years out, by then some valuable technology will be introduced which can make the battery issues, moot.

Based upon the changes now being made in the industry, I see FORD emerging as the most likely to "succeed." Chrysler, and GM are bringing up the slippery slope end. This is why my buying choices are going to vehicles in the Ford stable/umbrella.

[plane]

I just so totally hate GM.
But I'm going to show up here and act like a petulant indignant constipated critical fan.
GM is nothing but an undiversified automobile manufacturer that made one or two Tahoe commercials and therefore deserves to burn in hell forever.
I only bought my last GM car because they paid me to take it off the lot, otherwise I would have wound up with a Corolla.
I'm pretty sure the Silverado 3500 is the only vehicle that GM produces these days.
The Malibu can compete against other mid-size sedans. Oops no it can't.
The Cobalt has the highest highway gas mileage. The Cobalt sucks.
GM has been bankrupt for the past twenty years, we're just too lazy to notice.
Red Ink Rick needs to be impaled on a '57 Cadillac hood ornament.
Why did GM push the '900's forward instead of bringing over the next microcar? The Aveo sucks so bad it hurts.
Everyone else is using 12 speed transmissions, why is GM stuck back in the '70's?
Union workers make crappy products. Union workers are overpaid.
Nothing from Detroit can ever have the quality, safety, style or economy to match even the lowliest vehicle from Nagoya or Seoul.
GM is solely responsible for global warming.
GM is solely responsible for forest fires.
GM is solely responsible for PMS.
I love my Prius.

[kenman923]

Maybe Big Al should take over as Chairman of GM.

[Robert Ryan]

No one saw this gas issue coming, and if you say you did then you are probably also selling prime ocean front property in Arizona?

Well it was pretty obvious from this part of the world.I cannot fathom out how GMNA was not preparing for it?

[ScottS]

Originally Posted by tgunnd39

Go back and drink your Toyota Kool-Aid, because until you get your facts right, don't call GM out for not doing what is right.

Speaking of Kool-aid....

Originally Posted by tgunnd39

Fact: In addition to the Tahoe hybrid, GM also sells the Saturn Vue Hybrid, Aura Hybrid, Malibu Hybrid and the Silverado Hybrid.

Adding 1-2 mpg is hardly worth bragging about, especially not when your competitor offers a car that gets 40+. That's a joke. Imagine a non-brand loyal shopper comparing hybrids and sees the Prius at 48/45 or Civic at 40/45 then shops GM's hybrids for a 24/32 Aura or Malibu. That's going to make people laugh or think GM's a joke. Even Camry is 33/34.

You're the biggest auto company in the world, shouldn't you be competitive? Go ahead, try and defend that.

Originally Posted by tgunnd39

Fact: Minivans were economic losers for all but Chrysler; GM and Ford abandoned them to introduce a smaller line of SUVs; to whit, Outlook/Acadia/Enclave/Traverse and Ford Edge. Smart business decision. Yes, GM and Ford could have done better, and they should have, however, exiting a money losing segment makes total business sense. And isn't business sense what we are talking about here?

1) Yes, the Acadia and the rest of the nearly rebadges were good moves, but not as minivan replacements. They're good SUV replacements. GM had an interesting alternative with the Astro which could really tow, but it still wasn't class leading. This is a case, amongst oh so many, where GM half-assed it. The dust busters? The Uplander and company? They dang well should have been financial losers.

Chrysler made money and they also made the class leading minvans. You don't suppose there was any correlation do you? Toyota and Honda were newer to the scene than GM, but they quickly built up their reputations and became competitive and haven't had to abandon the minivan market. Unlike GM who built cheap minivans, Toyota and Honda focused on safety. What does a good soccer mom value above all else when transporting her child?

2) Let's see how long those strong sales last (started off the year hot, but Acadia is down 40% in June compared to June 2007 and it was also down in May and April....)

3) Ask yourself how many sales Acadia took from Yukon/Tahoe Trailblazer/Envoy and how many purchasers were cross-shopping minivans.

4) Using Ford's abandonment of the minivan to bolster your case is nothing short of laughable. The company that brought you the p.o.s. uglier than sin Windstar and the persistently problem plagued Freestar abandoned the minvan because they couldn't get it right.

Originally Posted by tgunnd39

Fact: No one has a more diversified product mix than GM. Perhaps too diversified. Again, no one made millions of Americans buy gas-guzzling SUVs, however, GM made them and people bought them in droves. Another smart business decision. Don't believe it, then why did Toyota intro a not-so-fuel efficient Tundra pickup and Highlander SUV in 2007? Oh wait, Toyota cannot make mistakes, Toyota cannot mistakes...

True, it's very diversified, lots of good big trucks and some pretty crummy small trucks, a couple great cars, some junk cars a lot of mediocre cars. Very diversified indeed!

So on one hand you congratulate GM for being diversified then on the other you chastise Toyota for more diversification. Interesting argument. So Toyota expanded and guessed wrong. The difference is Toyota's future isn't resting on those Tundras and SUV's.

Originally Posted by tgunnd39

No one saw this gas issue coming, and if you say you did then you are probably also selling prime ocean front property in Arizona?

Everyone has been caught flat-footed by this economic travesty in the US. Just as all boats rise and fall equally, so does everything else.

No one saw it coming this fast anyway. However, Toyota's forecasting problem is a shortage of Prius cars which has created a backlog on Prius orders. Not the worst problem to have. They have some issues with sales too, but at least they have an immediate bright spot and are continuing to build up their image with sales of a real hybrid. They're walking the walk while GM talks the talk.

More importantly, unlike the Volt, they have an actual hybrid on sale now and being sold as fast as they can be made. That, and the Prius isn't that expensive.

Originally Posted by tgunnd39

My .02

Here's 3 cents change.

[BigAls87Z28]

Toyota didnt forcast jack...lets face it.
The Prius was out when gas was 99 cents a gallon. Only super greenies bought them.
Unless Toyota predicted a massive hurricane to strike the gulf, ontop of an ongoing war, on top the drop in the dollar and massive speculation on oil, I think they just were in the right place at the right time.

Again, Toyota nor the press is responsible for GM's failures, but they sure as hell do not down play it nor do they try to promote its new product. THIS is the point of my rant.

[BigAls87Z28]

Originally Posted by ScottS

Speaking of Kool-aid....



Adding 1-2 mpg is hardly worth bragging about, especially not when your competitor offers a car that gets 40+. That's a joke. Imagine a non-brand loyal shopper comparing hybrids and sees the Prius at 48/45 or Civic at 40/45 then shops GM's hybrids for a 24/32 Aura or Malibu. That's going to make people laugh or think GM's a joke. Even Camry is 33/34.

I guess the same people will laugh when the super green Camry 4cyl gets 31mpg highway and the Malibu 4cyl gets 33mpg?
Or when the Cobalt gets 36mpg when the Corolla gets 34?

You're the biggest auto company in the world, shouldn't you be competitive? Go ahead, try and defend that.

Who says it isnt?

True, it's very diversified, lots of good big trucks and some pretty crummy small trucks, a couple great cars, some junk cars a lot of mediocre cars. Very diversified indeed!

I forgot about the quality Tundra's and Tacomas.
Or the Sienna's that were "warranty enhanced" in the 600k numbers
Or the engine sludge filled Toyotas.
Maybe the cheap interior of the NEW Corolla is top notch to YOU, but it lacks big time.
Or maybe the top notch quality ratings the Camry is getting?
Lets check Scion's quality rankings too.

Toyota's not banking on trucks and suv's, but they sure as hell arent stopping. All new full line of full sized trucks and suv's, with heavy heavy investment in trying to make Americans feel American in thier big American truck.


And to further my rant, since the Volt "doesnt exist" and the Prius does, explain to me how the Solar panneled idea for the Prius is getting such big press? Thats non-existant, but everyone thinks its the greatest idea and wants to know why GM still only makes big gas guzzling trucks?

[ScottS]

Pssst, Toyota's not the only competition.