Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

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Thread: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

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    Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Design Study:
    Cadillac Mini RWD
    Roadster & Coupe

    CitySport & CityCoupé





    Click to Enlarge







    Op-Ed by MonaroSS
    GMI Contributor – 20 February 2012




    At a time when Benz is shutting down the Maybach brand and Euro carbon rules and US CAFE are putting immense pressure on builders of large heavy luxury vehicles, the future looks set to be much kinder to a new breed of smaller ultra luxury vehicles. This is especially true for those living in large increasingly congested cities in Europe and Asia. Even Aston Martin has decided its owners need a luxury City Car for when their Aston is not the best weapon for the job-at-hand. Aston Martin's idea behind their Cygnet City Car starts to make some sense. And something similar could too for Cadillac owners both in Metropolitan US and Europe; and especially in the growing cities of Asia.

    Imagine you have an Escalade or the forthcoming large Omega based sedan or coupe (or the next CTS in Europe or Asia), but you just need to zip down to the shops for some more bubbly and foie gras and traffic is murder. Or imagine you love your large Caddy for those trips to your country estate or the wine country, but for your short commute to work you would like something that's nippy, looks 'socially conscious' to the liberal neighbours and is easier to park and manoeuvre. While it may not haul a weeks shop for a family, a City Car addition to your garage would certainly fit groceries for a yuppie, professional or retired couple. Unlike the ungainly looking FWD Aston Cygnet or even the Space Age looking FWD Cadillac ULC, the RWD Caddy CitySport or CityCoupé would make for a stylish second runabout car for the Cadillac family. And then there would be those who buy them as graduation gifts for the kids to go off to college in.

    I am not proposing such vehicles be small ‘entry level’ Cadillac’s. The ATS should be the entry-level vehicle. The CitySport or CityCoupé would be a stable mate to the larger Escalade or Omega such that choosing to take your smaller City Cadillac does not mean taking less luxury or less performance. Luxury levels should start at ATS and be able to be optioned way up. The interiors should be no less luxurious and loaded with quality and extravagances, for those who can afford to option them up, than their larger brethren. Smaller should not, at least at Cadillac, stand for cheaper or nastier quality luxury – it should be the same luxury just scaled down. Indeed, performance wise, if you look at the specifications data below you can see that even the base engined CitySport can stay with a 2.7 Boxster, a CityCoupé 2.0-liter CDTI Bio-diesel could keep up around town with a V8 CamaroSS and a CitySport-V packs Corvette levels of performance.




    Click to Enlarge









    Rather than the odd shapes of the Aston Cygnet or Cadillac ULC I have chosen a more traditional long hood / short rear deck shape for the two seat CitySport Roadster and the CityCoupé I like to think of more as a shooting brake rather than a hatchback. In fact the CityCoupé shouldn’t have a hatch but rather a fold down tailgate to extend the load floor when needed. Or to provide a place to sit and picnic on with wine and watercress sandwiches when attending events like the local polo match. The styling of course needs to be unique and even a little avant-garde, but within the bounds of normalcy that I think the Cadillac ULC steps too far over.

    A few weeks back I started thinking about vehicles like this when it was suggested by a GM exec that the Alpha platform under the ATS could be scaled both up and even smaller, and I wonder how much smaller? So these have been designed to essentially share components with a Chevy 130R, although they would use a lot more aluminium for things like hood, front fenders, doors trunk-lid/tailgate. As can be seen in the data they are 3 inches less wide than the ATS but the tracks would not be so different as, while the body is narrower, the wheels are pushed out under those fender bulges. The actual track decrease could be accounted for by wheel offset and some small geometry changes. The net effect being that the engine bay would be remarkably similar in size, inside of the suspension components, to the ATS.

    So while I propose only using I4 engines – I have no doubt custom shops would be shoehorning small block V8’s into these if the ATS-V has a V8. These City Cars would use thinner gauge high strength steel pressings in their platform than ATS to keep weight down. So heavier suspension and other components from the ATS-V would probably be needed to also be swapped in, such as the thicker alloy cross member, to support and cradle the extra weight; along with some extra body bracing to handle the extra torque loads. But when you look at the performance to be had from the standard engines below, you would have to wonder if unsettling the handling balance with all that extra mass over the front wheels would be worth it.




    Click to Enlarge







    Specifications and Power to Weight & Torque to Weight Comparisons

    Note: While many people often speak of the importance of power to weight ratios, an often-unconsidered measure is the torque to weight ratios, which I list at the end for each below. While power may be important for extreme top end speed, the ‘feel’ of power and get-up-and-go in normal driving is actually due to the torque of the engine being able to accelerate the mass of the vehicle. The original muscle cars were so addictive and popular because they put big engines with big torque into smaller, lower weight vehicles. The ‘easy power’ of a muscle car is actually derived from its torque.

    What separates these CitySport & CityCoupé vehicles from ordinary small City Cars is their easy torque, which was once and can still be a defining Cadillac quality.

    The engine power and torque figures below are estimates of what they will be when these models would be released as 2015 and 2016 models.

    Cadillac ATS Sedan 2.5 (202 hp 195 ft-lbs)
    WB 109.3 in L 182.8 in W 71.1 in H 55.9 in Wt 3400 lbs (lb/hp 16.8) (lb/ft-lb 17.4)

    Cadillac CityCoupé 2015 2.5 (220 hp 205 ft-lbs) 19in wheels
    WB 104 in L 148 in W 68 in H 57 in Wt 2750 lbs (lb/hp 12.5) (lb/ft-lb 13.4)


    BMW Mini Cooper Works 1.6T (208 hp 192 ft-lb)
    WB 97.1 in L 146.8 in W 66.3 in H 55.4 in Wt 2668 lb (lb/hp 12.9) (lb/ft-lb 13.9)

    VW Golf Mk5 2.0Turbo FSI (197 hp 207 ft-lb)
    WB 101.5 in L 165.5 in W 69.3 in H 58.2 in Wt 3,200 lb (lb/hp 16.2) (lb/ft-lb 15.5)

    Cadillac CityCoupé-V 2016 LHU 2.0T (295hp 315ft-lb) 19in wheels
    WB 104 in L 148 in W 68 in H 57 in Wt 2800 lbs (lb/hp 9.5) (lb/ft-lb 8.9)


    Cadillac CityCoupé-V Bio-Diesel 2015 2.0-liter CDTI (205 hp 320 ft-lb)
    WB 104 in L 148 in W 68 in H 57 in Wt 2850 lbs (lb/hp 13.9) (lb/ft-lb 8.9)


    CamaroSS 3850lb (426hp 420lb-ft) (lb/hp 9.0) (lb/ft-lb 9.2)

    Cadillac CitySport 2015 SIDI 1.4T (149hp 162ft-lb) 18in wheels
    WB 94.5 in L 139 in W 68 in H 52.5 in Wt 2250 lbs (lb/hp 15.1) (lb/ft-lb 13.9)


    Boxster 2.7 2772 lb (220hp 192ft-lb) (lb/hp 12.6) (lb/ft-lb 14.4)

    Cadillac CitySport 2015 2.5 (220 hp 205 ft-lbs) 19in
    WB 94.5 in L 139 in W 68 in H 52.5 in Wt 2350 lbs (lb/hp 10.7) (lb/ft-lb 11.5)


    Smart Roadster 700cc (80 bhp 81 lb-ft)
    WB 92.9 in L 134.9 in W 63.6 in H 46.9 in Wt 1851 lb (lb/hp 23.1) (lb/ft-lb 22.9)

    Original Mini Cooper S 1275 (76 hp 79 lb-ft)
    WB 80.3 in L 120.1 in W 55.1 in H 53.1 in Wt 1450 lb (lb/hp 19.0) (lb/ft-lb 18.4)

    Cadillac CitySport-V 2016 LHU 2.0T (295hp 315ft-lb) 19in wheels
    WB 94.5 in L 139 in W 68 in H 52.5 in Wt 2420 lbs (lb/hp 8.2) (lb/ft-lb 7.7)


    Cadillac CitySport-V Bio-Diesel 2015 2.0-liter CDTI (205 hp 320 ft-lb)
    WB 94.5 in L 139 in W 68 in H 52.5 in Wt 2520 lbs (lb/hp 12.3) (lb/ft-lb 7.9)


    Corvette 3208lb (430hp 424lb-ft) (lb/hp 7.5) (lb/ft-lb 7.6)

    Ford GT500 3940 lb (540hp 510lb-ft) (lb/hp 7.3) (lb/ft-lb 7.7)




    Click to Enlarge







    Now I’ve read some of the ULC thread, even though I wasn’t here at the time, so given the number of people who vehemently disagreed with Cadillac having a City Car, I don’t expect a lot of support for this Design Study. However, I would suggest that given that my proposal is not an entry-level vehicle, leaving that to ATS, preferring to ensure these have higher levels of performance and luxury than ATS, it’s a little bit different. These are conceived of as being ‘additions’ to a Cadillac family that already has the large Cadillac experience to drive. These offer a complimentary luxury urban experience. They would also help Cadillac meet carbon levels in Europe and offset CAFÉ in the US. And now with the future Cadillac line-up more clearly defined, it may be time to revisit this.

    I would suggest they even be marketed to promote paring with larger Cadillac’s. For example, buy a new Escalade and get an $8,000 credit for a Cadillac City. An XTS or CTS gets you a $5,000 credit. And for some bemoaning the fact that the next CTS will not have a mid-range V8, because GM believes such would harm it’s CAFÉ, then perhaps a midrange V8 CTS could be offered only ‘if’ bought with a Cadillac City to offset it. The future holds compromise for the automobile, whether we like it not, and a Cadillac City range could help offset or defer some of that compromise that would otherwise have to all be borne by the larger vehicles.

    Then again, the CitySport-V Roadster below, with the performance of a Corvette, doesn’t sound a whole lot like compromise to me….




    Click to Enlarge










    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by mbukukanyau View Post
    I assume Monaro SS is from down under, that might be part of the reason he does not understand the concept of what Cadillac is.. Cadillac always starts with BIG.. if its not big, its not really a Cadillac..

    May I ask how many people on here want Cadillac to be the 'Standard of the World'? As we all know Cadillac has always been only the Standard of America. Never in its history has it been a world car like Rolls Royce or Mercedes-Benz. Just something to consider is that the rest of the world may not want the American sense of what a Cadillac should be, especially if that is to be 'big' in a world of cars getting smaller and smaller. Only one thing can happen if GM follows that, Cadillac will go the way of Pontiac.

    Think about it. Cadillac simply does not have the recognition or cache to compete as a Rolls Royce or Bentley, so the big ultra luxury only market is out. It barely has the ability, and it is certainly a long way off proving if it can even compete with the German three, of which they do small. An A3 is not big and there is an A2 and an A1 will follow. The Benz has A-class and will have smaller cars follow. BMW has the 1-Series which will become the 2-Series to allow for a smaller new 1-Series. I assume you all would object to a Cadillac grille on anything that looked like these? If so then Cadillac won't compete in the rest of the world, and as an ‘American only’ product in an increasing globalised world will disappear.

    America was the largest auto market in the world. Today it is relegated to second. When India comes online it will become third and then 4th and 5th to various South American markets. How long do you think it will last? Or do you believe you can convert the rest of the world to your way of thinking? I'd say you would have as much chance as talking the rest of the world into giving up socialised medicine or doubling their military budgets. It's not going to happen. What will happen, if GM does what it needs to do for Cadillac to truly succeed, is not put all it's eggs in a Maybach competitor - a competition it can now win easily because Maybach as gone where Cadillac will go. But if GM make Cadillac’s smaller and smaller and drop the use of V8's in favour of adding I4's, it can succeed making a range of car from large to very small like it’s competitors. That's the future unless GM are fools, and I don't believe they are.

    Cadillac’s fans’ need to release Cadillac from their self imposed restrictions to be free to compete. And below is the future of the competition.








    Quote Originally Posted by ChevroletGuy View Post
    The concept is good and I like the roadster, but the way the coupe's roof bubbles is too weird. Maybe just take the roadster and put a straight shot across the top for the roof.
    That is what I originally had. But as I proceeded with the study where I actually measure and calculate everything out, it became obvious that it would be too restrictive in access to the rear seat. If you are buying a sports car you can sacrifice practicality and easy access for the sake of looks. But in a car that is meant to be practical and accessible it is not the leading concern. Single men looking at these types of vehicles would gravitate to the Roadster, but all other purchasers, being both women and men with women attached would have the buying decision made by women. They would prefer the higher roofline for an increased sense of space and so that when they occasionally use the rear seats their friends don't hit their heads...

    And the higher arch of the roof is over the front seat passenger and driver. Are you saying to cut a few inches of headroom? Really? Smaller cars get relatively taller for a reason. All car designs are compromises but none are tougher compromises than the smallest cars. To paraphrase what Ed Welburn once said to me; with the big cars he has plenty of room to sculpt pleasing shapes but the smaller the car the more the packaging requirements limit your styling options.

    A lower roofline means a more reclined seating which means to fit four people inside comfortably the legroom has to increase and the car has to be longer. Given this is a RWD car, which has lengthwise packaging issues to begin with, something had to give. That give came in a higher roof. Of course if you want to go FWD you could drop the roof line, but then you don't get the handling or the power train options and the incredible performance these vehicles offer, which nobody has mentioned.

    I'm beginning to wonder if anyone even read the article..... Part of the mission of these cars is to be paired with Escalade and Omega and for their owners to be able to jump out of one into another and not sacrifice the luxury Cadillac experience. In small cars space is a luxury and the higher roof helps provide that feeling of volume the owner has in their other Cadillac’s. The Coupe has more headroom and legroom than ATS and is more on a par with Escalade. The internal luxury experience is important here. Only in shoulder room is it less than Escalade and that's only important for three abreast seating in back and this is 2+2. The sense of space width wise comes from the large airy side windows. In reality I think even those who hate on these here would love them if they sat in and drove them from the luxury inside that exceeds the ATS, rather than make up their minds about them from the outside.

    Also, these are pocket rockets. Quicker than most on here have ever owned.... or driven


    Quote Originally Posted by hotrod747 View Post
    Absolutely not! Leave the minis to Chevy. Enough of confusing the consumer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesda View Post
    GM has other brands it can whore out to these awkward designs.
    People around the world who buy a small Audi, BMW or Benz are never going to even walk in the door of a Chevy dealer to cross-shop. Buick only exists in the US and China with no plans to make it a world brand. Only Cadillac and Chevy are planned to be world brands.

    So if the target customers won't even look at a Chevy and Cadillac won't offer them what they want then it's fail for Cadillac and it goes and sits with Pontiac. You guys have to start facing facts some time. This is hard and fast marketing reality, not schoolboy wish lists...

    If you guys don't like these particular designs then fine, but if you don't like the size then you are going to be disappointed with the Cadillac of the future.....





    Last edited by MonaroSS; 02-19-2012 at 06:03 PM.

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    My wife would like that little hatchback Monaro...if it came with a manual trans.

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Really good work!! I wouldn't be the lest bit surprise to see something like this eventually come to market.

    Opel seems to have something similar testing - Opel Allegra/Junior: new spy shots
    Last edited by EJD1984; 02-19-2012 at 09:40 AM.

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    I really like the ULC; it seems that Cadillac could build that one easier.



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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Not just no, HELL NO!!!

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Please no!!! No please- cadillac does not need this

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    If it were like the Cadillac concept and electric with a crazy over 100 miles on a charge range them I would say yes. Other wise not!!!
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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    If Cadillac becomes more noticeable around the world, something like this may work in international markets, but it would not in the U.S. for the foreseeable future. This is worth the study.
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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    I think you do great work, but I think these are already for sale at Toys R Us. This mini-car craze is not for car enthusiasts.

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Although I am not really much of a fan of these uber-small cars, and think they have way too much “snob” appeal (especially for the so called environmental crowd), I actually like the looks of the Aston Martin Cygnet way better than the Cadillac ULC. It looks less awkward and more inviting.

    On another note, I really like the looks of this color a lot:




    Why couldn’t I have been able to get my new Verano in this color?

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Quote Originally Posted by StormHunter77 View Post
    I think you do great work, but I think these are already for sale at Toys R Us. This mini-car craze is not for car enthusiasts.

    ^^^ Of course Cadillac does not sell to car enthusiasts, they sell to the world at large - or at least hope to. And beyond the 300 million in the US there is another 6.7 billion people who want a car too. And when they all eventually get an equal opportunity to own a car they will need to gas them up from the same resources. Gas prices will become $10+ in the US and then car size will matter a lot more to America, including those who buy luxury...

    That time is only decades away and at some point between now and then Cadillac needs to establish itself in this inevitable growth market.


    Last edited by MonaroSS; 02-19-2012 at 11:13 AM.

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    I appreciate the effort in making these renderings...but oh my goodness...gross.
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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Quote Originally Posted by ILikeNiceCars View Post
    Although I am not really much of a fan of these uber-small cars, and think they have way too much “snob” appeal (especially for the so called environmental crowd), I actually like the looks of the Aston Martin Cygnet way better than the Cadillac ULC. It looks less awkward and more inviting.
    I think, while more inviting, it's also more awkward. The ULC looks like a luxury uber-small car. I, personally, prefer the ULC above the CitySport and Cygnet.

    It's a job well done nonetheless. Excellent chop.

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Sorry, I'm not liking these. Quality is good, but not the design.

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    Re: Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

    Quote Originally Posted by MonaroSS View Post
    ^^^ Of course Cadillac does not sell to car enthusiasts, they sell to the world at large - or at least hope to. And beyond the 300 million in the US there is another 6.7 billion people who want a car too. And when they all eventually get an equal opportunity to own a car they will need to gas them up from the same resources. Gas prices will become $10+ in the US and then car size will matter a lot more to America, including those who buy luxury...

    That time is only decades away and at some point between now and then Cadillac needs to establish itself in this inevitable growth market.


    If gas reaches $10 a gallon anytime soon, the US economy will absolutely collapse. By the time it happens decades in the future, alternative propulsion systems will have proliferated much more, and Cadillac is already in this market with the ELR/Voltec. I don't believe peak oil is coming anytime soon, especially with more fuel efficient cars, increased environmental awareness, and advances in oil extraction.

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