GM Inside News Forum banner

Design Study: Cadillac Mini RWD Roadster & Coupe - by MonaroSS

11K views 60 replies 38 participants last post by  ChevroletGuy 
#1 · (Edited)
Design Study:
Cadillac Mini RWD
Roadster & Coupe
CitySport & CityCoupé





Click to Enlarge







Op-Ed by MonaroSS
GMI Contributor – 20 February 2012




At a time when Benz is shutting down the Maybach brand and Euro carbon rules and US CAFE are putting immense pressure on builders of large heavy luxury vehicles, the future looks set to be much kinder to a new breed of smaller ultra luxury vehicles. This is especially true for those living in large increasingly congested cities in Europe and Asia. Even Aston Martin has decided its owners need a luxury City Car for when their Aston is not the best weapon for the job-at-hand. Aston Martin's idea behind their Cygnet City Car starts to make some sense. And something similar could too for Cadillac owners both in Metropolitan US and Europe; and especially in the growing cities of Asia.

Imagine you have an Escalade or the forthcoming large Omega based sedan or coupe (or the next CTS in Europe or Asia), but you just need to zip down to the shops for some more bubbly and foie gras and traffic is murder. Or imagine you love your large Caddy for those trips to your country estate or the wine country, but for your short commute to work you would like something that's nippy, looks 'socially conscious' to the liberal neighbours and is easier to park and manoeuvre. While it may not haul a weeks shop for a family, a City Car addition to your garage would certainly fit groceries for a yuppie, professional or retired couple. Unlike the ungainly looking FWD Aston Cygnet or even the Space Age looking FWD Cadillac ULC, the RWD Caddy CitySport or CityCoupé would make for a stylish second runabout car for the Cadillac family. And then there would be those who buy them as graduation gifts for the kids to go off to college in.

I am not proposing such vehicles be small ‘entry level’ Cadillac’s. The ATS should be the entry-level vehicle. The CitySport or CityCoupé would be a stable mate to the larger Escalade or Omega such that choosing to take your smaller City Cadillac does not mean taking less luxury or less performance. Luxury levels should start at ATS and be able to be optioned way up. The interiors should be no less luxurious and loaded with quality and extravagances, for those who can afford to option them up, than their larger brethren. Smaller should not, at least at Cadillac, stand for cheaper or nastier quality luxury – it should be the same luxury just scaled down. Indeed, performance wise, if you look at the specifications data below you can see that even the base engined CitySport can stay with a 2.7 Boxster, a CityCoupé 2.0-liter CDTI Bio-diesel could keep up around town with a V8 CamaroSS and a CitySport-V packs Corvette levels of performance.




Click to Enlarge









Rather than the odd shapes of the Aston Cygnet or Cadillac ULC I have chosen a more traditional long hood / short rear deck shape for the two seat CitySport Roadster and the CityCoupé I like to think of more as a shooting brake rather than a hatchback. In fact the CityCoupé shouldn’t have a hatch but rather a fold down tailgate to extend the load floor when needed. Or to provide a place to sit and picnic on with wine and watercress sandwiches when attending events like the local polo match. The styling of course needs to be unique and even a little avant-garde, but within the bounds of normalcy that I think the Cadillac ULC steps too far over.

A few weeks back I started thinking about vehicles like this when it was suggested by a GM exec that the Alpha platform under the ATS could be scaled both up and even smaller, and I wonder how much smaller? So these have been designed to essentially share components with a Chevy 130R, although they would use a lot more aluminium for things like hood, front fenders, doors trunk-lid/tailgate. As can be seen in the data they are 3 inches less wide than the ATS but the tracks would not be so different as, while the body is narrower, the wheels are pushed out under those fender bulges. The actual track decrease could be accounted for by wheel offset and some small geometry changes. The net effect being that the engine bay would be remarkably similar in size, inside of the suspension components, to the ATS.

So while I propose only using I4 engines – I have no doubt custom shops would be shoehorning small block V8’s into these if the ATS-V has a V8. These City Cars would use thinner gauge high strength steel pressings in their platform than ATS to keep weight down. So heavier suspension and other components from the ATS-V would probably be needed to also be swapped in, such as the thicker alloy cross member, to support and cradle the extra weight; along with some extra body bracing to handle the extra torque loads. But when you look at the performance to be had from the standard engines below, you would have to wonder if unsettling the handling balance with all that extra mass over the front wheels would be worth it.




Click to Enlarge







Specifications and Power to Weight & Torque to Weight Comparisons

Note: While many people often speak of the importance of power to weight ratios, an often-unconsidered measure is the torque to weight ratios, which I list at the end for each below. While power may be important for extreme top end speed, the ‘feel’ of power and get-up-and-go in normal driving is actually due to the torque of the engine being able to accelerate the mass of the vehicle. The original muscle cars were so addictive and popular because they put big engines with big torque into smaller, lower weight vehicles. The ‘easy power’ of a muscle car is actually derived from its torque.

What separates these CitySport & CityCoupé vehicles from ordinary small City Cars is their easy torque, which was once and can still be a defining Cadillac quality.

The engine power and torque figures below are estimates of what they will be when these models would be released as 2015 and 2016 models.

Cadillac ATS Sedan 2.5 (202 hp 195 ft-lbs)
WB 109.3 in L 182.8 in W 71.1 in H 55.9 in Wt 3400 lbs (lb/hp 16.8) (lb/ft-lb 17.4)

Cadillac CityCoupé 2015 2.5 (220 hp 205 ft-lbs) 19in wheels
WB 104 in L 148 in W 68 in H 57 in Wt 2750 lbs (lb/hp 12.5) (lb/ft-lb 13.4)


BMW Mini Cooper Works 1.6T (208 hp 192 ft-lb)
WB 97.1 in L 146.8 in W 66.3 in H 55.4 in Wt 2668 lb (lb/hp 12.9) (lb/ft-lb 13.9)

VW Golf Mk5 2.0Turbo FSI (197 hp 207 ft-lb)
WB 101.5 in L 165.5 in W 69.3 in H 58.2 in Wt 3,200 lb (lb/hp 16.2) (lb/ft-lb 15.5)

Cadillac CityCoupé-V 2016 LHU 2.0T (295hp 315ft-lb) 19in wheels
WB 104 in L 148 in W 68 in H 57 in Wt 2800 lbs (lb/hp 9.5) (lb/ft-lb 8.9)

Cadillac CityCoupé-V Bio-Diesel 2015 2.0-liter CDTI (205 hp 320 ft-lb)
WB 104 in L 148 in W 68 in H 57 in Wt 2850 lbs (lb/hp 13.9) (lb/ft-lb 8.9)


CamaroSS 3850lb (426hp 420lb-ft) (lb/hp 9.0) (lb/ft-lb 9.2)

Cadillac CitySport 2015 SIDI 1.4T (149hp 162ft-lb) 18in wheels
WB 94.5 in L 139 in W 68 in H 52.5 in Wt 2250 lbs (lb/hp 15.1) (lb/ft-lb 13.9)


Boxster 2.7 2772 lb (220hp 192ft-lb) (lb/hp 12.6) (lb/ft-lb 14.4)

Cadillac CitySport 2015 2.5 (220 hp 205 ft-lbs) 19in
WB 94.5 in L 139 in W 68 in H 52.5 in Wt 2350 lbs (lb/hp 10.7) (lb/ft-lb 11.5)


Smart Roadster 700cc (80 bhp 81 lb-ft)
WB 92.9 in L 134.9 in W 63.6 in H 46.9 in Wt 1851 lb (lb/hp 23.1) (lb/ft-lb 22.9)

Original Mini Cooper S 1275 (76 hp 79 lb-ft)
WB 80.3 in L 120.1 in W 55.1 in H 53.1 in Wt 1450 lb (lb/hp 19.0) (lb/ft-lb 18.4)

Cadillac CitySport-V 2016 LHU 2.0T (295hp 315ft-lb) 19in wheels
WB 94.5 in L 139 in W 68 in H 52.5 in Wt 2420 lbs (lb/hp 8.2) (lb/ft-lb 7.7)

Cadillac CitySport-V Bio-Diesel 2015 2.0-liter CDTI (205 hp 320 ft-lb)
WB 94.5 in L 139 in W 68 in H 52.5 in Wt 2520 lbs (lb/hp 12.3) (lb/ft-lb 7.9)


Corvette 3208lb (430hp 424lb-ft) (lb/hp 7.5) (lb/ft-lb 7.6)

Ford GT500 3940 lb (540hp 510lb-ft) (lb/hp 7.3) (lb/ft-lb 7.7)




Click to Enlarge







Now I’ve read some of the ULC thread, even though I wasn’t here at the time, so given the number of people who vehemently disagreed with Cadillac having a City Car, I don’t expect a lot of support for this Design Study. However, I would suggest that given that my proposal is not an entry-level vehicle, leaving that to ATS, preferring to ensure these have higher levels of performance and luxury than ATS, it’s a little bit different. These are conceived of as being ‘additions’ to a Cadillac family that already has the large Cadillac experience to drive. These offer a complimentary luxury urban experience. They would also help Cadillac meet carbon levels in Europe and offset CAFÉ in the US. And now with the future Cadillac line-up more clearly defined, it may be time to revisit this.

I would suggest they even be marketed to promote paring with larger Cadillac’s. For example, buy a new Escalade and get an $8,000 credit for a Cadillac City. An XTS or CTS gets you a $5,000 credit. And for some bemoaning the fact that the next CTS will not have a mid-range V8, because GM believes such would harm it’s CAFÉ, then perhaps a midrange V8 CTS could be offered only ‘if’ bought with a Cadillac City to offset it. The future holds compromise for the automobile, whether we like it not, and a Cadillac City range could help offset or defer some of that compromise that would otherwise have to all be borne by the larger vehicles.

Then again, the CitySport-V Roadster below, with the performance of a Corvette, doesn’t sound a whole lot like compromise to me…. :D




Click to Enlarge










I assume Monaro SS is from down under, that might be part of the reason he does not understand the concept of what Cadillac is.. Cadillac always starts with BIG.. if its not big, its not really a Cadillac..

May I ask how many people on here want Cadillac to be the 'Standard of the World'? As we all know Cadillac has always been only the Standard of America. Never in its history has it been a world car like Rolls Royce or Mercedes-Benz. Just something to consider is that the rest of the world may not want the American sense of what a Cadillac should be, especially if that is to be 'big' in a world of cars getting smaller and smaller. Only one thing can happen if GM follows that, Cadillac will go the way of Pontiac.

Think about it. Cadillac simply does not have the recognition or cache to compete as a Rolls Royce or Bentley, so the big ultra luxury only market is out. It barely has the ability, and it is certainly a long way off proving if it can even compete with the German three, of which they do small. An A3 is not big and there is an A2 and an A1 will follow. The Benz has A-class and will have smaller cars follow. BMW has the 1-Series which will become the 2-Series to allow for a smaller new 1-Series. I assume you all would object to a Cadillac grille on anything that looked like these? If so then Cadillac won't compete in the rest of the world, and as an ‘American only’ product in an increasing globalised world will disappear.

America was the largest auto market in the world. Today it is relegated to second. When India comes online it will become third and then 4th and 5th to various South American markets. How long do you think it will last? Or do you believe you can convert the rest of the world to your way of thinking? I'd say you would have as much chance as talking the rest of the world into giving up socialised medicine or doubling their military budgets. It's not going to happen. What will happen, if GM does what it needs to do for Cadillac to truly succeed, is not put all it's eggs in a Maybach competitor - a competition it can now win easily because Maybach as gone where Cadillac will go. But if GM make Cadillac’s smaller and smaller and drop the use of V8's in favour of adding I4's, it can succeed making a range of car from large to very small like it’s competitors. That's the future unless GM are fools, and I don't believe they are.

Cadillac’s fans’ need to release Cadillac from their self imposed restrictions to be free to compete. And below is the future of the competition.








The concept is good and I like the roadster, but the way the coupe's roof bubbles is too weird. Maybe just take the roadster and put a straight shot across the top for the roof.
That is what I originally had. But as I proceeded with the study where I actually measure and calculate everything out, it became obvious that it would be too restrictive in access to the rear seat. If you are buying a sports car you can sacrifice practicality and easy access for the sake of looks. But in a car that is meant to be practical and accessible it is not the leading concern. Single men looking at these types of vehicles would gravitate to the Roadster, but all other purchasers, being both women and men with women attached would have the buying decision made by women. They would prefer the higher roofline for an increased sense of space and so that when they occasionally use the rear seats their friends don't hit their heads...

And the higher arch of the roof is over the front seat passenger and driver. Are you saying to cut a few inches of headroom? Really? Smaller cars get relatively taller for a reason. All car designs are compromises but none are tougher compromises than the smallest cars. To paraphrase what Ed Welburn once said to me; with the big cars he has plenty of room to sculpt pleasing shapes but the smaller the car the more the packaging requirements limit your styling options.

A lower roofline means a more reclined seating which means to fit four people inside comfortably the legroom has to increase and the car has to be longer. Given this is a RWD car, which has lengthwise packaging issues to begin with, something had to give. That give came in a higher roof. Of course if you want to go FWD you could drop the roof line, but then you don't get the handling or the power train options and the incredible performance these vehicles offer, which nobody has mentioned.

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone even read the article..... Part of the mission of these cars is to be paired with Escalade and Omega and for their owners to be able to jump out of one into another and not sacrifice the luxury Cadillac experience. In small cars space is a luxury and the higher roof helps provide that feeling of volume the owner has in their other Cadillac’s. The Coupe has more headroom and legroom than ATS and is more on a par with Escalade. The internal luxury experience is important here. Only in shoulder room is it less than Escalade and that's only important for three abreast seating in back and this is 2+2. The sense of space width wise comes from the large airy side windows. In reality I think even those who hate on these here would love them if they sat in and drove them from the luxury inside that exceeds the ATS, rather than make up their minds about them from the outside.

Also, these are pocket rockets. Quicker than most on here have ever owned.... or driven


Absolutely not! Leave the minis to Chevy. Enough of confusing the consumer.
GM has other brands it can whore out to these awkward designs.
People around the world who buy a small Audi, BMW or Benz are never going to even walk in the door of a Chevy dealer to cross-shop. Buick only exists in the US and China with no plans to make it a world brand. Only Cadillac and Chevy are planned to be world brands.

So if the target customers won't even look at a Chevy and Cadillac won't offer them what they want then it's fail for Cadillac and it goes and sits with Pontiac. You guys have to start facing facts some time. This is hard and fast marketing reality, not schoolboy wish lists...

If you guys don't like these particular designs then fine, but if you don't like the size then you are going to be disappointed with the Cadillac of the future.....


;)



;)
 
See less See more
15
#37 · (Edited)
That is what I originally had. But as I proceeded with the study where I actually measure and calculate everything out, it became obvious that it would be too restrictive in access to the rear seat. If you are buying a sports car you can sacrifice practicality and easy access for the sake of looks. But in a car that is meant to be practical and accessible it is not the leading concern. Single men looking at these types of vehicles would gravitate to the Roadster, but all other purchasers, being both women and men with women attached would have the buying decision made by women. They would prefer the higher roofline for an increased sense of space and so that when they occasionally use the rear seats their friends don't hit their heads...

And the higher arch of the roof is over the front seat passenger and driver. Are you saying to cut a few inches of headroom? Really? Smaller cars get relatively taller for a reason. All car designs are compromises but none are tougher compromises than the smallest cars. To paraphrase what Ed Welburn once said to me; with the big cars he has plenty of room to sculpt pleasing shapes but the smaller the car the more the packaging requirements limit your styling options.

A lower roofline means a more reclined seating which means to fit four people inside comfortably the legroom has to increase and the car has to be longer. Given this is a RWD car, which has lengthwise packaging issues to begin with, something had to give. That give came in a higher roof. Of course if you want to go FWD you could drop the roof line, but then you don't get the handling or the power train options and the incredible performance these vehicles offer, which nobody has mentioned.

I'm beginning to wonder if anyone even read the article..... Part of the mission of these cars is to be paired with Escalade and Omega and for their owners to be able to jump out of one into another and not sacrifice the luxury Cadillac experience. In small cars space is a luxury and the higher roof helps provide that feeling of volume the owner has in their other Cadillac’s. The Coupe has more headroom and legroom than ATS and is more on a par with Escalade. The internal luxury experience is important here. Only in shoulder room is it less than Escalade and that's only important for three abreast seating in back and this is 2+2. The sense of space width wise comes from the large airy side windows. In reality I think even those who hate on these here would love them if they sat in and drove them from the luxury inside that exceeds the ATS, rather than make up their minds about them from the outside.

Also, these are pocket rockets. Quicker than most on here have ever owned.... or driven


;)
 
#38 ·
Sorry, normally I love your stuff but I just can't get behind this. Could/Should Caddy make a mini-car a la the A1 or MINI? Maybe, if there's a case for it. However, that ain't the car to do it.
 
#39 · (Edited)
That's fine. Styling is a subjective thing. Even the might of GM Design gets hated on here with their 130R and ULC, and they have teams of people and they test with the public first before releasing even a concept. Me, it's just me and my personal taste.... But given I actually like most of the micro mini cars and super mini cars of the world my taste is probably a little more objective than most here who blanket hate on small cars of any description.

I even like French cars.... :D Although these are a little too avant-garde for Cadillac...







;)
 
#43 ·
Cadillac should only worry about two main markets right now, the US and China. Breaking into Europe is far more capital intensive than it will be worth in the near term. When profitability is met in the US, and China in a sustainable fashion then Cadillac should push into Europe and invest in Europe specific powerplants.
 
#46 ·
While there may be a push to preserve cash so that GM can break free of the US Government sooner than later. GM is actually in a great position, better than in 30 years, to invest in making Cadillac a world brand. The problem with your statement that, "Breaking into Europe is far more capital intensive than it will be worth in the near term", is that it will always be true. You always lose money to gain new customers, so why defer that cost because you also defer the profit that follows from gaining those new customers. Lets say you put back that cost ten years. You also put back all the future profits tens years. So if you can expand then expand now.

Also there seems to be an incorrect assumption made about some sort of parity between the US and Chinese markets. The Chinese market is far closer to Europe in nature than the US. The same cars that will succeed in China will succeed in Europe and vice versa. The Chinese government is already cracking down on cars above 1.6 engine size. Chinese cities are never going to be home to large SUV’s like the US, they have too little room. The super-mini is and will be king in China. The Chinese are not buying US sized vehicles for good reason. It’s why you now have the baby Buick (and you will get an even smaller one) that people here hated on so much and it’s why if Cadillac eyes China seriously you will have a baby Caddy too.


;)
 
#47 ·
I like it. All of them. And I agree with the idea behind it.

For instance, my wife drives a Corolla. Someday she might have a mid-size car for family use. But currently she wants a Mini Cooper. She doesn't need a bigger car, ever. She's 5'7 and weighs under 100lbs. But if she wanted a luxury car her options would be very limited. And fuel economy is very important to her.

This is the whole reason the Big 3 have began to make their smaller, compact cars of actual quality and offer actual features in them. Not everyone needs a big boat to drive around in but still appreciates the finer things in life. I know people that would be willing to pay more for a smaller car with quality features and luxury simply because they don't need or want a bigger car. In fact a bigger car could be more of a problem for them. Like living in a crowded city or for parking purposes. My older brother fits into this category.

I'm aware that this isn't for everyone. My father for instance drives a '01 2500HD Silverado with 8.1L. He doesn't car about fuel economy. He's happy with the basic amenities that truck provides. It drives, has A/C, is mechanically sound, low miles, and can tow a trailer if he and my mom ever decide to buy another one. He drives it a couple of miles to work and back every day. He isn't a technologically savvy person, and could careless about the quality of the radio (he's been deaf in one ear for most of his life) as long as it can play ZZ Top occasionally. If he became a millionaire, he would still be driving a Chevrolet (probably the same truck as now) and would buy a used C5 Vette with an automatic transmission and possibly a convertible top. He is a car guy but being from rather humble origins and working on a farm a lot as a kid, luxury isn't something he cares about.

If this is what GM needs to make Cadillac the global luxury brand is should be, then by all means this is what GM should do, as long as they do not decontent the cars. I do disagree with MonaroSS's view on Buick as we really should start to look at Buick as a global brand BUT with an emphasis on that it is a brand shared with the Opel and Vauxhall names for each respective market.

So while GM is pushing Chevrolet as a baseline/entry global brand (known in Australia as Holden), Opel/Buick/Vauxhall is a step up (which is important for the European market as they really favor quality over pricing, think in terms of buying decent goods from local stores instead of Wal Mart mass produced crap), and then Cadillac should be the top tier. I have no problem with some overlap between brands, like saying Opel shouldn't get ___ because Cadillac has it but rather Cadillac has ____ standard, Opel has this as an option.


Back to the design aspect of these cars, I'd like to see them with the softer headlight curve from the ATS. I think that might help the design language a bit.
 
#49 · (Edited)
^^^Thanks.

I'm actually not proposing Buick ‘not’ be global, I just stated what GM's current strategy is at the moment. Yes the headlights would probably be more like the ATS in a production model. For this study I just used the headlights and grill off the ULC pic at the top of the article... and laid them back... as I was originally going to do a modified ULC that would be part of this City ‘family’ and wanted the same family face…










;)
 
#54 ·
As an owner of a Mini myself, I just don't get the feeling from these Caddy's as I do from my Mini. The car needs to be more unique in styling and not scream of being a Caddy. Be unique and vibrant, not a copy of "reduced" clone.

It's hard to put into words when you own the real thing and others try to copy or mimic it.
 
#57 ·
I have to wonder if Cadillac would ever have to build cars this small. The Cruze does better on gas (with the Eco mode of course) than a comparably equipped Sonic.

What I would be really interested in and I think would be ideal for Cadillac is a Kappa sized coupe/roadster, maybe with hybrid technology.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top