Cadillac Should Lose the DTS

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by VivienM

Have you been going to the Zarella school of brand management lately?

Let's take a bigger picture here: GM's goal is to sell cars, not build ideologically-homogeneous brands to impress some self-appointed brand judge and jury. If you have people willing to buy, say, 50K DTSs/year who would be unlikely to buy anything else (or at least anything else GM sells), then you sell them their Cadillac-branded DTS unless, of course, the presence of the DTS in a corner the showroom would scare off more revenue from sales other products than it would bring in. At this point, I do not believe that stage has been reached... (the OP would disagree with me, though.)

This is the mistake that was made with Oldsmobile. Somebody thought, as you seem to, that brand identity can make U-turns in a few years. They found themselves with buyers thinking "Oldsmobile means X", and a product line that was designed around Y. So people wanting Y stayed out of the showrooms, and people wanting X walked out disappointed and bought a Camry or Avalon. GM market share dropped 2-3%.

Far too many people out there still think Cadillac = DTS = comfortable big floaty luxury car from top American brand. These people can be divided into two groups for our purposes: people who WANT comfortable big floaty luxury cars and people who don't. The latter group, for the most part, just won't walk into the dealership. The former group... will walk out if all they find in the showroom is sport sedans, and they aren't going to go and get a Buick, no matter what your Zarellaesque marketing may tell them to do. These buyers are afraid that their neighbours would see the new Buick and see this as an indication that their finances are heading south...

Look at Lexus. Toyota has clearly decided, like every other automaker out there unfortunately, that the future of luxury brands lies in RWD sport sedans. Yet they're continuing to invest "heavily" in cars like the ES... and make a pile of money selling the things. And why not? The ES being in a corner of the showroom isn't torpedoing IS/GS sales, and it brings in money, keeps the market share up, keeps the dealers happy, etc. So what, Lexus is an impure, two-headed brand without focus? I'm sure the beancounters in Japan couldn't care less...

GM is to offer a different car for different tastes and people. This is the reason Pontiac is going RWD performance. This is the reason why Saturn has become the US Opel.
Cadillac is GM's global luxury brand. It has chosen to have a sport/performance feel to its cards. Where does DTS fit? It doesn't. It is part of Cadillac's history of what it used to be.

Furthermore, the idea of the new GM is to maintain all the brands and to reduce the brand overlap that there once was. So why have a DTS, when Lucerne exists -- which is essentially the DTS without 50% of the bells and whistles and a detuned Northstar? Are you doing justice to the DTS? How about the Lucerne?

Yes. People think DTS is a big, comfy, floaty, American luxury sedan. And that's the image Cadillac is trying to move away from. Why delay the inevitable? I still believe Buick in the US needs to change or die. Keeping Cadillac in Buick's market is no way to change brand identities and perceptions.

ES is fine and dandy for Lexus. It sells a good amount and barely costs Toyota a thing. But the ES is the last Lexus to sit on the Camry platform. Let's see what happens to the ES once it moves to a Lexus exclusive platform in 4 years and it doesn't have the benefit of economies of scale.

Also, Lexus doesn't have an adjacent semi-luxury brand to coddle. Lexus can be what it wants/needs to be in the market. GM has Cadillac and Buick to nurture.

It's best for Cadillac to be the global luxury car. Best for Buick to provide semi-luxury cars from China and Australia. That way, neither brand steps on each other's territory and GM can maximize profits.

If someone walks into a Cadillac dealerhsip looking for a DTS, and find no floaty, cushy land yacht, then Cadillac will no longer be considered that brand in time. Perceptions change. And those customers -- who are dwindling in numbers anyways -- will go to Buick or another Cadillac.

We're not talking about shutting down a brand. We're talking about killing a legacy car that has outlived its life.

[ClassyEldo]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

GM is to offer a different car for different tastes and people. This is the reason Pontiac is going RWD performance. This is the reason why Saturn has become the US Opel.
Cadillac is GM's global luxury brand. It has chosen to have a sport/performance feel to its cards. Where does DTS fit? It doesn't. It is part of Cadillac's history of what it used to be.

Furthermore, the idea of the new GM is to maintain all the brands and to reduce the brand overlap that there once was. So why have a DTS, when Lucerne exists -- which is essentially the DTS without 50% of the bells and whistles and a detuned Northstar? Are you doing justice to the DTS? How about the Lucerne?

Yes. People think DTS is a big, comfy, floaty, American luxury sedan. And that's the image Cadillac is trying to move away from. Why delay the inevitable? I still believe Buick in the US needs to change or die. Keeping Cadillac in Buick's market is no way to change brand identities and perceptions.

ES is fine and dandy for Lexus. It sells a good amount and barely costs Toyota a thing. But the ES is the last Lexus to sit on the Camry platform. Let's see what happens to the ES once it moves to a Lexus exclusive platform in 4 years and it doesn't have the benefit of economies of scale.

Also, Lexus doesn't have an adjacent semi-luxury brand to coddle. Lexus can be what it wants/needs to be in the market. GM has Cadillac and Buick to nurture.

It's best for Cadillac to be the global luxury car. Best for Buick to provide semi-luxury cars from China and Australia. That way, neither brand steps on each other's territory and GM can maximize profits.

If someone walks into a Cadillac dealerhsip looking for a DTS, and find no floaty, cushy land yacht, then Cadillac will no longer be considered that brand in time. Perceptions change. And those customers -- who are dwindling in numbers anyways -- will go to Buick or another Cadillac.

We're not talking about shutting down a brand. We're talking about killing a legacy car that has outlived its life.

Cadillac has been GM's global luxury brand for some time--there are many foreign governments that have Cadillacs for their officials and embassies, and those are based on the DTS! Even many fine European hotels feature Cadillac DTS's as limousines, etc. (Just watch a parade from a foreign country, and Cadillac DTS based cars show up.) They just were never a big contender, and certainly not a performance brand, but Cadillac was at least known through the DTS. In my opinion, the emphasis on sports sedans and performance models can co-exist with a DTS model that is more luxurious and cushy-riding in emphasis--just like VivienM stated about the ES being in Lexus' line-up. The "legacy car" has not yet outlived its life, it just needs updated, a new platform, complete new body, but still with design cues following the evolution of traditional DTS styling elements. Bring on a next generation DTS. As for GM having Buick and Cadillac to nurture? Most Cadillac afficionados are not worrying about Buick. Remember the adage, "what's good for Cadillac is good for GM!" One of the worst recent ideas was to put the little "GM" badges on the Cadillacs (reminds me of old Mopar products with the Pentastar logos)--maybe the other GM brands are attempting to boot-strap onto the re-birth occurring at Cadillac? At present, with DTS sales such a significant cash flow generator for Cadillac, it is not time to kill the DTS--the perception of large, cushy American luxury sedans has been integral to Cadillac for over 100 years--maybe, if the other Cadillac models eventually establish identities that generate the loyal buyers that the DTS did, then it may be time to consider killing the model. (I'll be attempting that when I replace my '03 CTS with an '08 CTS!) As for a dwindling customer base, I'm not completely in agreement--the demographics in the USA show that the over 65 (a.k.a. aging baby-boomers) are the fastest growing demographic, and at a certain time, those well-heeled seniors are likely to say it's time to reward themselves with a big, old-fashioned, cushy, full-sized Cadillac (with it's ease of entry, effortless steering, smooth ride, etc.) and it is a fact that they are more affluent than the seniors a generation ahead of them. Buick has been in sorry shape for a lot longer than Cadillac--and they need a flagship, stylish model such as the Velite (?) concept car, to generate showroom traffic and get new cusotmers looking at their other re-designed models--the Lucerne does not appeal to many of the DTS customers--if GM is thinking that, they're really in trouble! In my opinion, the Escalade appears more badge-engineered than the Lucerne/DTS. When you see the standard base model Lucerne, it looks awful, without any semblance of luxury.

[VivienM]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

And those customers -- who are dwindling in numbers anyways -- will go to Buick or another Cadillac.

No, they'll get a Lincoln.

That's what this is about. This is about people who want a car from a given automaker's top luxury brand. (Okay, F*rd's top luxury brand is probably Jaguar, not Lincoln, but most Town Car buyers don't see it that way...)

What would happen if Infiniti decided to kill the G35 tomorrow, stuck a Nissan badge on it, and called it the new Maxima? What if Toyota killed the Lexus IS and turned it into a Toyota?
My guess is that people would walk out of the dealer and go buy a competitor. People buy luxury brands to get that luxury logo on the hood, and if you're used to Cadillac logos and the old GM brand hierarchy, you will not downgrade to a Buick. A DeVille customer trading it in for a Lucerne is going to feel like they are downgrading... so they'll get a Lincoln instead. Why is GM throwing Mulally some customers for F*rd's most profitable product?

You're not seeing the social impact of the brand of the vehicle in your driveway. No one wants their neighbours to see them downgrading. Gnd going from a Cadillac to a Buick, a Lexus to a Toyota, an Infiniti to a Nissan, an Acura to a Honda, etc. is going to be perceived as a downgrade by your neighbours, plain and simple. (This is probably why things like the Lincoln Navigator were successful - people didn't want to be seen as downgrading to a blue collar mass brand like F*rd...)

[yoblues]

It's all a moot point. DTS either goes to Zeta for 2011 or dissaperas. Once the G body is gone there is no FWD replacement platform in the pipeline.

[IAMCANADIAN]

I agree that the Lucerne and DTS are a little too similar, but I think it would be incredibly stupid to lose the DTS since it accounts for a big chunk of their sales.

[SierraGS]

Originally Posted by VivienM

Have you been going to the Zarella school of brand management lately?

Let's take a bigger picture here: GM's goal is to sell cars, not build ideologically-homogeneous brands to impress some self-appointed brand judge and jury. If you have people willing to buy, say, 50K DTSs/year who would be unlikely to buy anything else (or at least anything else GM sells), then you sell them their Cadillac-branded DTS unless, of course, the presence of the DTS in a corner the showroom would scare off more revenue from sales other products than it would bring in. At this point, I do not believe that stage has been reached... (the OP would disagree with me, though.)

This is the mistake that was made with Oldsmobile. Somebody thought, as you seem to, that brand identity can make U-turns in a few years. They found themselves with buyers thinking "Oldsmobile means X", and a product line that was designed around Y. So people wanting Y stayed out of the showrooms, and people wanting X walked out disappointed and bought a Camry or Avalon. GM market share dropped 2-3%.

Far too many people out there still think Cadillac = DTS = comfortable big floaty luxury car from top American brand. These people can be divided into two groups for our purposes: people who WANT comfortable big floaty luxury cars and people who don't. The latter group, for the most part, just won't walk into the dealership. The former group... will walk out if all they find in the showroom is sport sedans, and they aren't going to go and get a Buick, no matter what your Zarellaesque marketing may tell them to do. These buyers are afraid that their neighbours would see the new Buick and see this as an indication that their finances are heading south...

Look at Lexus. Toyota has clearly decided, like every other automaker out there unfortunately, that the future of luxury brands lies in RWD sport sedans. Yet they're continuing to invest "heavily" in cars like the ES... and make a pile of money selling the things. And why not? The ES being in a corner of the showroom isn't torpedoing IS/GS sales, and it brings in money, keeps the market share up, keeps the dealers happy, etc. So what, Lexus is an impure, two-headed brand without focus? I'm sure the beancounters in Japan couldn't care less...

You are on the money with the Lexus sales on the IS vs GS; in 2006 Lexus sold 75K ES350 and 54K IS250/350 with the ES accounting for 41.5% of Lexus car sales (23.6% total) and the IS percentages were 29.6% car 16.8% of the total - proving that similar size FWD and RWD models can coexist and sell in the same showroom. To really heat up this DTS debate, Cadillac should offer the BLS and Estate model alongside the upcoming Alpha based BTS.

Back to the DTS debate, Cadillac needs to first establish a big selling RWD Sedan and so far the STS has been a disappointment. Even then there will be enough luxury buyers that put comfort in front of performance and want a FWD car to justify keeping the DTS around. If the next FWD DTS was built on the next Gen Lambda and shared with the Lucerne, development costs would be minimized and the end result would be an increase in Cadillac sales which as you say is the real bottom line.

A sidenote: RX330/350/400h models account for 77.7% Lexus truck and 33.6% total - the largest, Cadillac needs to do something with the SRX or get the BRX on the market SOON.

Almost forgot - the biggest surprise LS430/460 sales (the car you think of when someone mentions Lexus) 10.6% of car sales and a paltry 6.1% of total.

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by SierraGS

You are on the money with the Lexus sales on the IS vs GS; in 2006 Lexus sold 75K ES350 and 54K IS250/350 with the ES accounting for 41.5% of Lexus car sales (23.6% total) and the IS percentages were 29.6% car 16.8% of the total - proving that similar size FWD and RWD models can coexist and sell in the same showroom. To really heat up this DTS debate, Cadillac should offer the BLS and Estate model alongside the upcoming Alpha based BTS.

Back to the DTS debate, Cadillac needs to first establish a big selling RWD Sedan and so far the STS has been a disappointment. Even then there will be enough luxury buyers that put comfort in front of performance and want a FWD car to justify keeping the DTS around. If the next FWD DTS was built on the next Gen Lambda and shared with the Lucerne, development costs would be minimized and the end result would be an increase in Cadillac sales which as you say is the real bottom line.

A sidenote: RX330/350/400h models account for 77.7% Lexus truck and 33.6% total - the largest, Cadillac needs to do something with the SRX or get the BRX on the market SOON.

Almost forgot - the biggest surprise LS430/460 sales (the car you think of when someone mentions Lexus) 10.6% of car sales and a paltry 6.1% of total.

Greetings SierraGS,

I was thinking before I do not have any issue with the DTS being offered in Cadillac model line up because I have the STS/CTS and XLR to choose from in regard to luxury sport sedan and luxury sport roadster. But the more I think about it from a DTS perspective it should have a replacement but updated and RWD/AWD. The STS/CTS with the latest model will be very close to each other in base form and upgrades would be needed to match the STS from where the new CTS is today. But clearly there are STS owners who would have purchased the DTS and do not care that it or understand the difference between the STS and DTS, so pick one is what Cadillac seems to be saying, well at least through the rumors anyway.

I would think the new DTS will be a modern replacement for the current fullsize luxury sedan.

JLM

[fastball]

Whatever it will be, it needs to be RWD and have at least a 6 speed transmission, but the competiton has 8 already.

The current DTS is a joke. I drove one. Feels like a 1985 Park Avenue (and it's chasis isn't that far removed from one).

GM should have a Lexus LS460 in their R&D lab that is dismantled down to the last bolt, gasket, and ring. Every inch of that car needs to be scrutinized by GM engineers (not copied), and use that as the influence for the DTS replacement.

[aldw]

The sooner the DTS can be terminated the sooner Cadillac can focus on being a worldbeater rather than being a cheap livery provider.

[DuSpinnst]

Thankfully the DTS (and G-Body) will die.

Unfortunately, I can't say that GM won't do the same things with the Zeta replacements, the only positive thing is that the DTS replacement is the STS replacement, so that the "fleet" sales of this new car won't kill the value of another Cadillac.

[haleykeek]

do any of you all remember the fleetwood talisman? yeah by todays standard the car's a tuna-boat,but back in 1974,it was an extremely luxurious car to ride in.and it was also a rare Cadillac;not just any Fleetwood.i also did'nt know that Cadillac's were loaded even as far back as the 50's; when compared to some cars today.Cadillac were miles ahead of alot of marques back in the 40's,50's,and 60's.what happened? is my question."what happen to them? did all of those people,who had great ideas die off at Cadillac? Seriously,no joking intended,but cadillac need to go back to their grass-roots.My favorite Cadillac of all time is the 1967 Eldorado with the hide-away headlights.it was an intimidating-looking car,and as a young kid,i really wanted to have one of those cars.My uncle onced owned a 67 Eldo. 429 V8,and a ton of chrome.it was an intimidating,but illuminating car back then.Cadillacs had a look of their own,and that meant something to americans,who bought them.I remember when my dad brought home a new,1976 Sedan Deville.I thought the car as an absolute dream machine.In 1980,he traded the 76 Deville in on a 1980 Coupe DeVille.i wanted myself a Cadillac and had to get one.But for me,i waited a few years later,and bought a 94 Seville STS.it's old now,and I want another Cadillac,but i'm not so sure if i will patronize Cadillac any longer.My sister in law recently purchased a new 5-series BMW,and i really like the way her car looks.it's strikingly beautiful,and i may eventually buy one.

[fastball]

Originally Posted by haleykeek

do any of you all remember the fleetwood talisman? yeah by todays standard the car's a tuna-boat,but back in 1974,it was an extremely luxurious car to ride in.and it was also a rare Cadillac;not just any Fleetwood.i also did'nt know that Cadillac's were loaded even as far back as the 50's; when compared to some cars today.Cadillac were miles ahead of alot of marques back in the 40's,50's,and 60's.what happened? is my question."what happen to them? did all of those people,who had great ideas die off at Cadillac? Seriously,no joking intended,but cadillac need to go back to their grass-roots.My favorite Cadillac of all time is the 1967 Eldorado with the hide-away headlights.it was an intimidating-looking car,and as a young kid,i really wanted to have one of those cars.My uncle onced owned a 67 Eldo. 429 V8,and a ton of chrome.it was an intimidating,but illuminating car back then.Cadillacs had a look of their own,and that meant something to americans,who bought them.I remember when my dad brought home a new,1976 Sedan Deville.I thought the car as an absolute dream machine.In 1980,he traded the 76 Deville in on a 1980 Coupe DeVille.i wanted myself a Cadillac and had to get one.But for me,i waited a few years later,and bought a 94 Seville STS.it's old now,and I want another Cadillac,but i'm not so sure if i will patronize Cadillac any longer.My sister in law recently purchased a new 5-series BMW,and i really like the way her car looks.it's strikingly beautiful,and i may eventually buy one.

It was right about the mid-1970s that GM learned how to really cut corners. Cheap plastic, generic styling, and sharing plaforms accross the board from every division. That helped cut costs, raise profits, and keep the board happy and jolly.

You can thank whoever the CEO of GM was in the 70s for ruining Cadillac, as GM is still recovering from those mistakes 30 years later.

[VivienM]

Originally Posted by fastball

You can thank whoever the CEO of GM was in the 70s for ruining Cadillac, as GM is still recovering from those mistakes 30 years later.

When did Roger Smith start his reign of destruction?

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by fastball

It was right about the mid-1970s that GM learned how to really cut corners. Cheap plastic, generic styling, and sharing plaforms accross the board from every division. That helped cut costs, raise profits, and keep the board happy and jolly.

You can thank whoever the CEO of GM was in the 70s for ruining Cadillac, as GM is still recovering from those mistakes 30 years later.

Greetings fastball,

I understand and cannot disagree with GM/Cadillac's past mistakes. However, when I evaluated luxury brand models in preparation for purchase, I compared Cadillac's style and design with the worlds very best comprehesively and Cadillac rank #1 for my requirements.

I understand we can specifically take any of the luxury brand products today and show their shorting comings and that is ok, but at the end of the day, Cadillac has very competative luxury models in the respective segments in my view, as do all of the luxury brand makers.

I purchased Cadillac's STS V8 and XLR and these two luxury performance cars remain my first choice today. I will be replacing these luxury models and I have decided on Cadillac's STS-V and XLR-V without hesitation, due to the absolutely wonderful experience I have had with the STS V8 and XLR. This is not to say there are not other wonderful luxury brand models to choose from. On the contrary, in my evaluation I ranked BMW 5 Series/Lexus GS and Mercedes-Benz SL as my #2 choices after Cadillac's STS and XLR.

I have been watching very closely all of the rumors regarding new models from Cadillac, however it appears the timing is beyond the time when I want to update my luxury cars. So, with that understanding, the Cadillac STS-V and XLR-V are my target replacements for the current luxury cars.

In my view, Cadillac clearly has some of the most high styled, best designed, safe and highest quality luxury vehicles available today bar none.

JLM

[DMD]

I strongly disagree with Cadillac getting rid of the DTS. The DTS appeals to many people who like big cars. The DTS is not the wallowing lumbering tilting machine going around corners like many who know nothing of the DTS expect it to be. Many people who at present buy Cadillacs do so for a few key reasons:

(1) luxury at a reasonable price versus many other offerings

(2) Performance of a V8 for a value, without bad MPG figures expect 20 city/27 highway. For a car that is anywhere between 4,000 to 4,400 lbs. that is very impressive with its tried and true 4 speed automatic.

(3) Many love the control and safety of FWD along with stabilitrack, and traction control. People like my 73 year old father who owns four Cadillacs total, two of which are DTS's. The other two Cadillacs he owns are a 03 STS completely loaded and an 05 Escalade EXT completely loaded. He lives in the snow belt, and has stated on many occassions that he will never buy another RWD car ever again once he switched over to FWD about 10-15 years ago. Yes, I realize 73 is not a preferred target market of Cadillac, but as a percentage of the total number of its customers switching things to RWD from the present FWD step up could hurt sales of some of its core customers. Dad has made comments to the fact that the Northstar powered and FWD Lucerne CXL is probably what he is going to be looking at getting next time around. You really shouldn't dismiss the older clients outright like so many have. People who are lets say 75 are more mobile and have better health generally speaking than lets say a 75 year old was able to 25 years ago. Another fact that is hard to overlook is people are living longer. Not all elderly people, drive poorly. On another note, I know from reading articles on the web, Buick doesn't want to go back to RWD like Cadillac is doing frankly, I don't blame them one bit.

(4) One more thing, the DTS is the most reliable car in the Cadillac lineup. Relaibility is key when you look at comparing Cadillac to Lexus, and other names.


*** I think Cadillac should have both FWD and RWD offerings. Lexus does it, why not Cadillac? Position them so they are either class leading in their segmants or pretty damn close to class leading, that way it will be really difficult for potential customers to dismiss those cars outright and in turn they will get sales when people see the value of the Cadillac offerings versus the offerings of other makes.****