Cadillac-Becoming the Standard Once More

[CobaltSScrazy]

Originally Posted by ChevroletRevived

Um, the DTS is a very nice sedan. It's not supposed to compete with the cars that you mentioned. It tops out where they start out, so in that respect, I don't agree with you.

Chevrev, so what does it compete with? The crown vic? the Lucerne? the Town Car?, if thats it, fine. its good and hands down the best of that group.

But the full size Cadillac sedans SHOULD be competing against the LS, a8, 7, and S not the town car. Are we going to compare ourselves with lincoln or are we going to once again be the standard of the world and compete with the big boys - mb, bmw, audi, and lexus?

Keep the DTS in the lineup if its ONLY meant to compete with the Town car. But honestly, its a hunk of junk on a dated platform with a decent interior, fun front end, old and i mean old school rear and to top it off a 4 speedslushbox. Hardly what a luxury car should be. ........HOWEVER, Cadillac NEEDS a ULS if its to be a true tier-1 luxury maker in my humble opinion. You CANNOT not cater to the top luxury market buyers when 4 other companies do and are successful at it and be considered a class leader among brands.

I usually agree with you Chevrev, but I guess not this time, unless you agree with my reasonable, prudent, and valid points I just listed. But I'll wait to see your response.

[member12]

Why is Cadillac so obsessed with prices?

Cadillac needs to supply an S class fighter. Just because you may one day have a cadillac that cost 100,000 big ones doesn't mean it is worth that much. Its a sad fact that people think that is what measures your being "standard of the world". Being standard of the world should be suppling the best, most reliable, quickest, most efficient, best handling, safest car possible. Screw price...I don't think the XLR is worth that money.

I'd much prefer them talking about how much cadillac needs a V12 or 7 speed transmission, or a larger sedan. As long as it is a little bigger and better than the STS...then move up from there.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by DuSpinnst

A4 and CTS are completly different styling.

Styling is different. Same class of car.
Sorry, CTS is garbage in that class.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

I think GM understands that now.

With Enclave, GM's proven to me that they can create an interior that is both attractive and uses good quality materials.

They just need to translate that into Cadillac. And I do EXPECT that the small details that appear in Enclave are retained 100% in Cadillacs.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by Bravada

I think the big picture is missing - Cadillac used to be the standard of the world (back in 1909, but it still counts ). Now it's doing fine in America, but certainly not in the world. Cadillac needs a better lineup to compete on a global scale.

What I would suggest:

1. DRAMATICALLY IMPROVE QUALITY - better materials, fit and finish

2. DESIGN - STRIKING BUT REFINED - as mentioned before, CTS (and other models too) does not LOOK like a premium car. It surely does stand out both inside and out, but that's not the point here. Audis are probably less "striking", yet there's something about the refinement and cleanness of their design, the thoughtful dashboard layout and attention to detail that makes them unmistakeably premium cars.

3. ATTENTION TO DETAIL ONCE AGAIN - this concerns the entire car, nothing overlooked. Cadillac ought to have all the features the others have and preferably more - remember they were the first brand to offer "crankless ignition"? Why are they to do without keyless ignition? Cadillacs have to be extremely well-thought, practical and convenient in everyday use and suprise owners with small and seemingly unimportant solutions and details.

4. MATCH PRICE AND SIZE - for example, CTS is almost 5er-sized (or GS, E-Klasse, S-Type et al.), but price-wise it's in the territory of 3er, IS and the like. "More car for the buck" works well with family cars, but not with prestige automobiles. CTS needs to be on par with either group in terms of quality, size and price. You can't convince people to forgo their 3ers becuase they can get a bigger car for the money (they could have a dozen others, but somehow they chose the 3er), or a 5er buyer to save up on the STS - the people buy BMWs or Mercs because they can afford them, not because they are bargains.

5. FOCUS AND DON'T STRETCH BEYOND REASON - although many premium brands ventured into new areas lately, it benefits their volume rather than image. If Cadillac started it's revolution around RWD, it should stay that way. There's no need for small FWD sedans, compact crossovers and the like - leave that for other brands, which GM has in abundance. A RWD small midsize car to compete with IS/3er might be advisable, but provided it's RWD. This could be either a downsized CTS or a brand new model. And nothing BELOW it.

6. NO NEED FOR HYPEREXPENSIVE SUPERSHOWCAR - as the Maybach and Rolls-Royce ventures show, the market for superexpensive cars is very small and unpredictable. Although a car like that might boost Cadillac's image and egos of a few GM bigwigs, it can also be a costly flop, which is just what GM does not need. There's enough room to expand for Cadillac - e.g. models to truly rival S-Klasse, CL, A8, 7er, 6er etc.

6.5. NO NEED FOR 12, 16 CYLINDERS - 12-cylinders are heavy and the benefits over modern-day V8s are usually outweighed by, well, the weight, which impedes handling, as well as fuel consumption. BMW and Mercedes top models garner better reviews in V8 than V12 versions, and the former outsell the latter by a bigger margin every year. Just look at the emphasis all the manufacturers pay to their V8, while the V12s remain largely neglected. A new engine block would cost a lot and have very limited use. GM would better develop a big brother for the Northstar out of existing engine blocks.

I agree with 1-3, so no need for my comments.

I agree with #4 to an extent. CTS was initially to be Cadillac's 3-series fighter. And it does so very well. But for size, it is a 5-series. STS is the true 5-series competitor. Which leaves Cadillac with 2 cars to compete with the 3-series -- BLS and CTS. BLS is the right size, but only has 80% of the driving dynamics/powertrain. CTS has the right dynamics/powertrain, but wrong size. CTS is shrinking in size... so the jury's still out on this one.

#5... I would prefer if BLS was moved to Sigma II. I'd also prefer if "BRX" was also on Sigma II. That's assuming that Sigma really is that extensible. But I do believe that Cadillac should offer a car BELOW BLS. Those silly Europeans seem to love their A2, A3, A-class, B-class, and 1-series. So... offer a Cadillac based on Delta II. Sporthatch, whatever. Cadillac wants to play int eh global arena, it better have teh product to compete in the global arena.

#6... Sorry. Cadillac NEEDS an expensive car... on the level of the Flying Spur and Continental GT. However, it doesn't need one on the level of the Phantom and the Arnage. Cadillac also needs a full-sized luxury sedan -- ULS -- whatever.

#6.5.... and that car should have a V12. V16... no. But definitely V12 in th ehigh end. Preferably with DOD. And it should be DOHC.

[CobaltSScrazy]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Styling is different. Same class of car.
Sorry, CTS is garbage in that class.

M, I usually agree with your assessments, but garbage? Are you f*cking kidding me? Its competitive and a quality car, have you ever driven one with the 3.6 and a 5 speed? I have and its quality. AND ITS A HELL OF A LOT NICER THAN A 9-3 ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

[Bravada]

The Sigma thing is the culprit here - it cannot be stretched too much, so CTS and STS had to be similar in size. They ended up CTS being too big for the 3er and STS being to small for the 7er. Traditionally, the Seville was regarded as 7er/S-Klasse competitor in Europe (even if it fared miserably), so it's just a matter of growing a bit in size and a lot in quality and design

The "BTS" would require a new platform, probably, or an extensively reengineered Sigma. And a serious name, of course

"The Europeans" embraced the A-Klasse and A3 to some extent, but the sales of the 1er are lagging behind BMW's expectations (no wonder, as the 1er's main competitor is 3er Compact ). There is a market for premium compact cars in Europe, but I believe that "midmarket" premium brands are better suited to compete here - I believe a Saab 9-2 could take care of the A3, 147, C30 and the like - no need for Cadillac to go that low. The same applies to "BRX".

Trying to sell a model priced like the Continental and justifying the costs of a brand-new state-of-the-art V12 could be a hard task for Cadillac, until all other problems are rectified. I think successfully fighting the S-Klasse should be on Cadillac's agenda for now. When they come to the moment when they will be able to compete with Bentley, petroleum engines might be history already.

Do also remember that it's not a football game, when you need to have a pre-set number of players. The fact that competition has a particular model portfolio does not mean that you have to have such, it all depends on your brand image and focus. BMW has so many models becuase they have one and a half brands, and Mercedes' prolific model portfolio resulted from Stuttgart boys' big egos - not long ago we were reading of the R-Klasses misfortunes.

[ChevroletRevived]

Correct Bravada. That's why they need to get their bread and butter car, the CTS, squared away before they move upmarket.

[tama z71]

I liked the focus on detail. When someone says Cadillac, people go "Escalade!" as a knee-jerk reaction. BY FAR though, the CTS is the bread and butter of Cadillac.

I liked the points you made, but moving Caddy into the 100-150 thousand dollar range seems a bit sketchy. They have always been aspirational, but attainable. Too much price exclusivity and I think it will lose the Cadillac brand appeal that is just a little different and a slight advantage over its luxo competitors.

[tgagneguam]

So there's reasonable agreement that the CTS, SRX, and STS interiors are not up to the standards of their respective classes. The DTS seems to have missed the mark with the vehicles even Cadillac admits to targeting with this new vehicle: the LS430 (let's no even think about how outclassed the DTS will be compared to the soon-to-arrive new LS) comes quickly to mind. So, while Cadillac is improving, there's much work to be done (with limited dollars!) on existing vehicles. Remember, their are scores of people waiting for their early retirement and buyout checks, people.

And now people think GM should spend money on a limited edition, high-buck Cadillac super sedan?! I see, and what about the above makes you think that Cadillac will be able to do this when they haven't yet nailed the basics in their bread-and-butter vehicles?

[ChevroletRevived]

Mgescuro, I agree with you on a lot of points but when you say the CTS is garbage, my agreement ends. It is not garbage. Look at the comparo R&T did a while ago. Who won that contest...the CTS!

[ChevroletRevived]

Originally Posted by tama z71

I liked the focus on detail. When someone says Cadillac, people go "Escalade!" as a knee-jerk reaction. BY FAR though, the CTS is the bread and butter of Cadillac.

I liked the points you made, but moving Caddy into the 100-150 thousand dollar range seems a bit sketchy. They have always been aspirational, but attainable. Too much price exclusivity and I think it will lose the Cadillac brand appeal that is just a little different and a slight advantage over its luxo competitors.

Thank you tama. In the 60's however, Cadillac DID make expensive vehicles, as well as more attainable vehicles.

[tgagneguam]

Originally Posted by CobaltSScrazy

M, I usually agree with your assessments, but garbage? Are you f*cking kidding me? Its competitive and a quality car, have you ever driven one with the 3.6 and a 5 speed? I have and its quality. AND ITS A HELL OF A LOT NICER THAN A 9-3 ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

I agree, to some degree. The CTS is better when you "live with it" for a bit; it's better than I thought it would be.

I still say it's not class-leading, a mission that should be the primary focus of the luxury game for Cadillac at this point. When pressed, GM engineers have quite easily demonstrated that they can produce superlative product (Cadillac's own 2007 Escalade is one example).

[ChevroletRevived]

No, tgagneguam, the CTS is not class leading at the moment. Hopefully, that will be rectified with the 2008 model.

[gopedxr7]

cadillac really improved their image in the last few years. one thing i love about the STS is its distinctive look. it copys nothing and looks like nothing else on the road. its dictincively caddilac and distinctively american.

Alan