2008 CTS: First Drive and Impressions

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by CmicasatheGreat

How many of U expect this to be a GLOWING review simply because U kno I LOOOOVE Caddy??? Who gives a *** I am gonna tell it like it is.

The cars are effin awesome. I arrived at the dealership in my '05 STS, and the first thing my sales guy does is ask… “So U ready to trade??? I gotta a new 2008 STS and the new CTS if U are looking to downgrade…”

CTS

Ok let me tell U I am finding hard to say that the CTS is a Downgrade more so than a competitor. Only by sitting the two cars next to each other U can seriously see the differences. The CTS is SEXY and Sport, the STS is Sexy and Elegant. The new trims are magnificent and I will ultimately CRY to Cadillac to please replace the STS with the XLS soon… simply because I can’t justify buying a new car so close to my own considering I only have 15K on the odo… the XLS would push me over the edge. Or seriously even if the STS v8 simply had a different engine than what I already have I would have wrote a check 2day for about $120K… a 2008 STS 4 me… and a CTS 3.6Ldi 4 the little lady.

First up was the CTS… I was excited to say the least. And after reading so many glowing reviews... the car was suddenly more aspirational. The model I jumped in 2 was LOADED with everything but NAV. POINT BLANK… my next Caddy will be Pearl White I think.

EXTERIOR

U’ve seen it in pictures… U kno what it looks like. But in person… ORGASMIC. Let me put it 2 U like this; had the place been dark… and nobody was around… Me and CTS would have been making a Porno.

INTERIOR

OK… The first thing I noticed besides an interior that would make AaromM blush due 2 so many “soft touch” materials, was the new ignition until system the CTS employs over my STS’s Push Button start. The car was cooled already as the Remote starter had been engaged as I got in the car not realizing that it was even on. WTF??? I seriously had an issue with the fact that it was so quiet that the only way of knowing the car was running was that the air condition was blowing across my brow. Anyway… back 2 the ignition. The Ignition has a “Turn Type” starter which resembles a thick sturdy key draped in a chrome finish… the KEY Fob, like in my STS, and new Corvettes… simply has to be present within car. Look around the car and U will notice a beautiful cabin, adorned with a HUGE SRX-Type Dual Sunroof that opens in humongous fashion. A power sliding fabric sunshield is a part of the package as well. Look towards the console and U will notice a new sensation in Climate Control and Dash control amenities. Man… Audi and Lexus are seriously pretenders at this point. When the bottom of the line North American Cadillac is dressed like this… Anything from here on out has to be even more stellar… if U get my drift.

PULLING OFF THE LOT

Once again… I LOVE the NORTHSTAR… but man... the Direct Injected 3.6L is STRONG... I mean getting to 100mph is nothing , and U realistically won’t kno U are going that fast until U notice the other cars are far far far behind like blurs and stuff. And I am not trying to belittle the NS, but one has to give this V6 props. I seriously imagine that Infiniti has the same problem with the G35 and the M45; particularly because of the engines… the 3.5L Infiniti and the 4.5L Infiniti are not so different in this respect. Both companies best get replacements out REEEEAL soon.

Oh… and Jimesg/Gamper… the stories about the loudness at higher rev… are true and not true. The thing sounds magnificent when it’s opened up... MY GOD it sounds good. I see nothing negative about this, and despite the European tuning on the Ring, the engine is a wonderful mix of European Smooth and American BRAWN… a much needed mix in this segment.

Handling is amazing… I mean… just go effin drive one… U’ll say the same. The car despite it’s 5series size (it is 191.1 vs 191.6 (CTS), it handles like a car much smaller. This is a perfect set-up for the moving up of the car in 2010 as the 5series competitor. The car I drove was $47, 850… AWD included.

The STS

Not really much to say in terms of driving other than the addition of the 6speed. Mine has the 5speed which is as smooth as butter. The 6speed triumphs mine and makes another valid case along with the new Stately Styling. The additions to the rear… new rear bottom spoiler, new exhaust tips, and chrome strip at bottom edge of the trunk is very nice, yet subtle. The chrome strip on the bottom side and the chrome handles are awesome accentuations. I particularly love the side vents. They are not identical to the CTS’s but similar nonetheless. The Front… AWESOME. The car looks like a true Big Brother to the CTS… wider and more classical, but still extremely sleek and sexy. I like it more than my own. And like I said if the V8 was more powerful it would be a shoe in for mine’s space in the garage.

INTERIOR

Nicely done Caddy… and although I certainly do like the CTS’s interior more… the STS is better overall for what was done in accentuating the already sweet interior in my car. This car had a beige interior like the CTS and still managed to pull it off. Exterior was Dark Blue. I’ll still take mine in BLACK on BLACK or WHITE on Cashmere…. OH and I love the lane Departure warning and Heads Up display. The new Steering wheel and changes in wood splashes are wonderful.

Overall

The combination of both the new Exterior and Interior changes for the STS is magnificent changes that are possibly going to garner better sales for an already exemplary car. The only thing that bothers me is the fact that I wish that the V8 was not so close in power to the V6. Cadillac should have offered a detuned version of the 6.2L LS3 putting out at least 400HP… or Direct Injected the NorthStar which would have pushe the HP up 15% to about 370HP… altho I would have been just as happy with the OHV 6.2L under the hood. In fact… they would have had my money tonight.

Future Plans as per my Dealer

I was once again given the excuse of why the CTS is so close to the size of the 5series … the BLS will be here in Model Year 2010 on a RWD body instead of the Saab variation. It WILL be a true competitor to the 3series.

CTS will actually move up in price, starting in at about $42K (2010 money), with the BLS coming in at about $32K… the STS will be done, and a new car which they haven’t heard a name yet (XLS) will replace it coming in about $62K. The DTS’s will supposedly DIE, with livery service falling on stretched out versions of the new larger models. The SRX is DEAD, but will be essentially replaced with a less WAGONY looking cuv and the CTS Sport Wagon (similar to the Sport Combi in fact). Look for the CTS-V and Coupe to debut in Detroit in 2008. XLR will get a refresh in 2010 along with the Vette, but not a complete redo until 2013. The car will still be so changed on the inside and outside that it will not look the same as the current model. (Think the current DTS makeover which is essentially the same car that was introduced in 2000) Ultra V8s will debut in 2009 models, and hybrids are a go. The Escalade will get a more “refined” interior in 2009.

Greetings CmicasatheGreat,

Loved your reviewed. I did have a chance to see the new STS V6 DI and my impression was same as yours. It will be very intersting to see what the XLS will be. I still think for my requirements the new CTS with mid-life upgrade will be the one for me. I like the size of the CTS for my taste, but I must admit as long as the STS/STS-V are in production they remain my first preference.

JLM

[blank disk]

Originally Posted by nsap

A 6-speed manual is standard in the 2008 CTS.

What are the projected % sales for this manual shifted luxury sport sedan? I have to think they are small. Auto transmissions are so good now, and we are talking about a car that leans heavier toward luxury than sport - especially with the standard V6 engine. Maybe I am getting old, but stirring gearboxes in a Cadillac seems entry-level to me and far too much work.

[BigAls87Z28]

Probably less then 2% for sales for the manual.

[Ghrankenstein]

Originally Posted by CmicasatheGreat

Thanks Ghran... I am sure one of your fellow Staff Members (Msgero) will have problems with these positive reviews of Caddy tho.. 2 daggone bad... the Company is coming BACK up, and the Germans have some serious competition from the Americans again.

Mgescuro's gonna say what he thinks about the car, just like I am. I think he's done a good job lately of toning his posts so that people can better understand his perspective without watering down his opinions.

I think I made it pretty clear that I'm not planning on cutting the CTS any slack either. There's a great deal of "stuff" about this car that other reviews haven't covered, and I plan on being rather comprehensive about it. Don't worry, I'll put it together in a "multiarticle" format like I did with the 900 pickups.

[CmicasatheGreat]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

If you have a problem with my posts... come right out and say it.
I haven't seen the CTS, so I haven't said anything. And I have nothing to contribute at this time.
I'm not a lemming and will post exactly what I experience.

Just note that I will evaluate the CTS from the perspective of it competing with E350 and 530 -- not the 3 and C class.

If the CTS is good. Then I'll post a solid review. If there are problems, expect me to not hold back. if you don't like it, deal with it, and argue back.

Dude I don't like your tone.. so chill out. I was referring to your constant belittling of everything Cadillac ... If U wanna "battle" with me.. come to MT Forum. We can get down there I promise.

As for the Evaluation... I did eval it from the perspective of the STS, 750i, CLS, and 550i I have recently driven/tested and a GS430 and M45 I tested a coupla years ago. From the view point of THOSE cars I am left with a serious dilemma of saying that the CTS is better than not only it's big sister the STS, but also in many ways the aforementioned CLS, M, and 550i... absolutely beating the Lexus GS in every way imaginable except in the Narcolepsy Inducement Dept. The 550i and CLS certainly have it in the power dept with their V8s under the hood, but that is pretty much where it STOPS. The CTS is really that good.

The only reason I can currently see in buying the also beautiful STS as a Mid-Size Competitor is for the perceived point of it being the better car due to it's price and slightly larger size. I imagine that Infiniti dealers have to do the same in trying to sell the M when it is sitting next to the brand new G... as BMW Dealers probably have to do when attempting to sell the 7series, when the 550i is there. Seriously... look at the Q45 to see what I mean as well. The cars are so close to each other that the classes/segments are now blurred.

Put a 360-380HP UltraV8 under the hood of the CTS and the current STS is TOAST... as is most cars in the segment. Keep that Formula and transfer it to a larger car (think SLS China) with the same look and amenities with more things standard... and the XLS is a true S-Class BEATER not competitor.

BTW. I am not attempting to say that the CTS is a competitor to the 7Series or S-Class, but it certainly could be... with a little more size and power. U get my drift? If the Ultra V8s improve on the legacy of the Northstar and are embodied in car like this... GM, Caddy, Buick and the rest are gonna have one helluva next 2 model cycles based on this stuff alone.

[CmicasatheGreat]

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

Greetings CmicasatheGreat,

Loved your reviewed. I did have a chance to see the new STS V6 DI and my impression was same as yours. It will be very intersting to see what the XLS will be. I still think for my requirements the new CTS with mid-life upgrade will be the one for me. I like the size of the CTS for my taste, but I must admit as long as the STS/STS-V are in production they remain my first preference.

JLM

Thanks JLM... OH on that note... I had a chance to buy a 2006 STS-V Certified for $53K with 9K on the ODO... What do U think? I seriously love the car but cannot justify the purchase with mine being so new and fresh still. It is Black on Black and resides currently at Frankel Cadillac in Baltimore, MD. I drove it as well and seriously considered doing it... if it looked like the NEW STS (2008) and not almost exactly like mine (I mean this is a PROFILE vehicle.. most people wouldn't even kno I changed) except the lowered look, better interior, growl of the 469Horsies and word SUPERCHARGED across the door (which I would remove upon delivery)

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by CmicasatheGreat

Dude I don't like your tone.. so chill out. I was referring to your constant belittling of everything Cadillac ... If U wanna "battle" with me.. come to MT Forum. We can get down there I promise.

Meh... deal with it. It's easy to belittle Cadillac because they haven't done much right. They talk about being "world class," yet they come out with hackneyed product. It's disappointing.

For example, the 2008 STS is a completely useless vehicle at this point. It's filler. Kill it now or give it the SLS interior. don't start with XLS. No one knows what kind of car it's going to be at this point. All we know is that it's a STS/DTS replacement. S-Class beater? Sorry. I don't believe GM is capable of such a car... ever. And Ultra V8? 3 years late to market and counting. I hear Hyundai's got a new V8...

I'm anxious to see if CTS will actually rectify the problems Cadillac inflicted on itself.... or not.
The fact we don't see eye to eye on Cadillacs is inconsequential to me. Everyone has their opinions. if you don't like my opinion, oh well. I'm not here to sugar coat... whether it's Cadillac or Saab or Saturn or Jaguar. I'll call it like I see it.

THink of me as the GM Fanboy without the rose colored glasses.


I'm here to evaluate Cadillac as it stands on a global scale against proven global competition. I'm not here to compare it to lowly Buick and Lincoln and Acuras.
Cadillac needs to stand against the 3 Germans, Jaguar, and Lexus.
In order to beat the standard, you need to be better than the standard.

In the grand scheme of things, those are the Big 5 that Cadillac needs to worry about.
As far as everyone's evaluations, including the magazines, I take it with a grain of salt. Why? Because GM has had this extraordinary habit of coming up with great cars, and then suddenly, 3-6 months later the "real" reviews start coming out. "Car X doesn't have A, B, C." Or "Car X does this well, but A, B C." Then suddenly, the cars start to tank because the competition still ends up ahead of the GM car.

My concern with this CTS right now, is that the car is too dependent on a flashy facade instead of real substance, aside from tangible performance numbers, which are really just half the story. I need to go and see if I can verify that. I'm also unsure if CTS will pull in conquest buyers. TIme will tell though.

I just need to see for myself.
From photos, I can see great things, questionable things, etc.
I don't trust magazine and articles. I trust my own judgement to confirm or deny the reports.

Anyways, Cadillac needs to shoot very high to succeed in this super-competitive segment. And I have higher expectations. As far as I'm concerned, they're still very unfocused, and this includes CTS.

Is CTS the perception and game changer? We'll see.

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by CmicasatheGreat

Thanks JLM... OH on that note... I had a chance to buy a 2006 STS-V Certified for $53K with 9K on the ODO... What do U think? I seriously love the car but cannot justify the purchase with mine being so new and fresh still. It is Black on Black and resides currently at Frankel Cadillac in Baltimore, MD. I drove it as well and seriously considered doing it... if it looked like the NEW STS (2008) and not almost exactly like mine (I mean this is a PROFILE vehicle.. most people wouldn't even kno I changed) except the lowered look, better interior, growl of the 469Horsies and word SUPERCHARGED across the door (which I would remove upon delivery)

CmicasatheGreat,

The price is worth it in my view but I understand your logic here. In fact, the STS-V and XLR-V are the two replacements for my current STS V8 and XLR. There is so much I like about the STS-V in driving it. Cadillac does not get credit when it comes to just how well the car drives, it has a refinement of power management that is simply one of the best the world has to offer today. And its power is dynamic for the most part, no switching from power sedan to racing sedan as with BMW's M5. In fact Mercedes-Benz's CLS55 AMG (now CLS63 AMG) has much more of the driving character I like most compared to Cadillac's STS-V and I would rank Cadillac's STS-V my preference overall for being able to do it all so very, very well.

For my tastes Cadillac's STS-V styling remains its key element for selection, I simple think it has the overall look and feel as one of the best high performance luxury sedans on the planet. No other luxury brand has styling enhancements today other than the Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG and as much as I adore the CLS styling and I do very much, there is huge sacrifice is passenger comfort, visibility to rear seat comfort. However, that is the nature of the design and it is to be expected if you want those sweeping, beautiful coupe exterior lines.

Cadillac's STS-V style and design is aggressive and yet conservative at the same time. It is one of the few design themes that has the sophistication and subtle elegance that exudes performance without being overdone, which is what I feel from BMW's M5 and Mercedes-Benz's AMG line today. And I must admit, Mercedes-Benz has become the most racy looking of the group, screaming, "I am performance" similar to Pontiac's styling cues. There are so many aspects of the STS-V I like, but clearly its styling and overall design edges out its competitors in my view.

JLM

[jlmartin99]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Meh... deal with it. It's easy to belittle Cadillac because they haven't done much right. They talk about being "world class," yet they come out with hackneyed product. It's disappointing.

For example, the 2008 STS is a completely useless vehicle at this point. It's filler. Kill it now or give it the SLS interior. don't start with XLS. No one knows what kind of car it's going to be at this point. All we know is that it's a STS/DTS replacement. S-Class beater? Sorry. I don't believe GM is capable of such a car... ever. And Ultra V8? 3 years late to market and counting. I hear Hyundai's got a new V8...

I'm anxious to see if CTS will actually rectify the problems Cadillac inflicted on itself.... or not.
The fact we don't see eye to eye on Cadillacs is inconsequential to me. Everyone has their opinions. if you don't like my opinion, oh well. I'm not here to sugar coat... whether it's Cadillac or Saab or Saturn or Jaguar. I'll call it like I see it.

THink of me as the GM Fanboy without the rose colored glasses.


I'm here to evaluate Cadillac as it stands on a global scale against proven global competition. I'm not here to compare it to lowly Buick and Lincoln and Acuras.
Cadillac needs to stand against the 3 Germans, Jaguar, and Lexus.
In order to beat the standard, you need to be better than the standard.

In the grand scheme of things, those are the Big 5 that Cadillac needs to worry about.
As far as everyone's evaluations, including the magazines, I take it with a grain of salt. Why? Because GM has had this extraordinary habit of coming up with great cars, and then suddenly, 3-6 months later the "real" reviews start coming out. "Car X doesn't have A, B, C." Or "Car X does this well, but A, B C." Then suddenly, the cars start to tank because the competition still ends up ahead of the GM car.

My concern with this CTS right now, is that the car is too dependent on a flashy facade instead of real substance, aside from tangible performance numbers, which are really just half the story. I need to go and see if I can verify that. I'm also unsure if CTS will pull in conquest buyers. TIme will tell though.

I just need to see for myself.
From photos, I can see great things, questionable things, etc.
I don't trust magazine and articles. I trust my own judgement to confirm or deny the reports.

Anyways, Cadillac needs to shoot very high to succeed in this super-competitive segment. And I have higher expectations. As far as I'm concerned, they're still very unfocused, and this includes CTS.

Is CTS the perception and game changer? We'll see.

mgescuro,

I look forward to your observations. I do not plan to evaluate the CTS to the level of detail I did the STS/STS-V or XLR/XLR-V, due to I do not plan to purchase the CTS. But I will look at the CTS as Cadillac's representative direction for its cars.

Your comments regarding Cadillac claiming to be the Standard of the World, has never come from any Cadillac information I have seen or read. Anyone talking in those terms is simply not living in the real world and what it takes to transform a business or brand inside a large corporation. I certainly agree with you in regard to where Cadillac should be focused regarding their competition and market customer base. I simply do not agree with your view that everything needs be a particular way to be valuable to luxury buyers. If any luxury brand proves that to be a fact, it is Lexus and to some degree Audi.

Cadillac's transformation has surely started, but it clearly has many product projects, business processes, capital investments and service levels to complete before it can claim Standard of the World and to some degree, I do not think that is realistic in today's luxury market, but its certainly a worthy objective and goal for Cadillac.

mgescuro, my only objection in regard to your opinions regarding Cadillac is your base, name calling personal attacks, which you claim to be supportive of Cadillac. I simply disagree with this approach for improving anything of value. A public verbal flogging has never been viewed as a way to improve anything other than disdain. Some on GMI believe that this form of expression is somehow elite or superior and I view it as just the opposite, base, crude and of little value. It certainly can get emotions moving, but it rarely offers anything of value. I have said, I can see many of your observations and they have merit in my view, but the tone overshadows much of the value, because in how you express your opinions. Some of your best work has come when you have refrained from derogatory comments, which displays a negative bias so plainly and no matter how much you claim to be in support of Cadillac, the negative emotional charge of your choice of words leaves the opposite impact. What you say and how you say it, has value.

JLM

[CmicasatheGreat]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Meh... deal with it. It's easy to belittle Cadillac because they haven't done much right. They talk about being "world class," yet they come out with hackneyed product. It's disappointing.

For example, the 2008 STS is a completely useless vehicle at this point. It's filler. Kill it now or give it the SLS interior. don't start with XLS. No one knows what kind of car it's going to be at this point. All we know is that it's a STS/DTS replacement. S-Class beater? Sorry. I don't believe GM is capable of such a car... ever. And Ultra V8? 3 years late to market and counting. I hear Hyundai's got a new V8...

I'm anxious to see if CTS will actually rectify the problems Cadillac inflicted on itself.... or not.
The fact we don't see eye to eye on Cadillacs is inconsequential to me. Everyone has their opinions. if you don't like my opinion, oh well. I'm not here to sugar coat... whether it's Cadillac or Saab or Saturn or Jaguar. I'll call it like I see it.

THink of me as the GM Fanboy without the rose colored glasses.


I'm here to evaluate Cadillac as it stands on a global scale against proven global competition. I'm not here to compare it to lowly Buick and Lincoln and Acuras.
Cadillac needs to stand against the 3 Germans, Jaguar, and Lexus.
In order to beat the standard, you need to be better than the standard.

In the grand scheme of things, those are the Big 5 that Cadillac needs to worry about.
As far as everyone's evaluations, including the magazines, I take it with a grain of salt. Why? Because GM has had this extraordinary habit of coming up with great cars, and then suddenly, 3-6 months later the "real" reviews start coming out. "Car X doesn't have A, B, C." Or "Car X does this well, but A, B C." Then suddenly, the cars start to tank because the competition still ends up ahead of the GM car.

My concern with this CTS right now, is that the car is too dependent on a flashy facade instead of real substance, aside from tangible performance numbers, which are really just half the story. I need to go and see if I can verify that. I'm also unsure if CTS will pull in conquest buyers. TIme will tell though.

I just need to see for myself.
From photos, I can see great things, questionable things, etc.
I don't trust magazine and articles. I trust my own judgement to confirm or deny the reports.

Anyways, Cadillac needs to shoot very high to succeed in this super-competitive segment. And I have higher expectations. As far as I'm concerned, they're still very unfocused, and this includes CTS.

Is CTS the perception and game changer? We'll see.

Like I said... your tone is offensive, and being a Staffer (admin) should not be a ticket to being nasty to forum members. My original comment stands true and was not offensive in the least. I simply stated that U are "negative" on Cadillac... nothing more. So get over yourself son.

I quoted your entire post because I agree with much of it but there are still many contradictions. The BOLDED part is a true issue with me since U have not even driven one yet... I have, and as for the STS, with the exception to the Engine, being no longer the benchmark, I think the current STS is world class, better than most in it's class, including the Eclass, M45, GS430, A6, and before the 550i got the upgrades... the 5series.

Naaaah No ROSE COLORED GLASSES here little one... I just put my money where my mouth is. That's green currency coming outta mine... What's that brown stinky stuff coming outta yours??? I call BS.

I certainly agree with the fact that Cadillac should have been autonomized from GM when it came to bean-counter manipulation over the last 2 decades. Accountants are ONLY about money, passion often escapes them (ask me about the Accountant's girlfriends I've had over the years ) Time will tell... and BS will walk. U show me one car that has still maintained the level of enthusiasm after 3 years of release without major investments by the company and I'll see your point. HUGE difference is that GM has a monkey on it's back and if they can somehow or another end these talks with serious concessions from that monkey... the World will be "Rosey." Hence the reason why the SLS (China) has the better interior and sized perfectly to go up against the best from Germany and Japan... For me tho... the biggest issue is still the engine power. The LS3 would have made a great OPTIONAL engine... and the Direct Injecting of the North-Star would have been just as smart.

[mgescuro]

Like I said. Cadillac has problems, and I don't intend on giving them a break. Whatever happened to them mid-way through this renaissances, they have botched things up. Their products, especially the '08 STS, are worthy of derision. And I am no longer willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, as I've been very patient over the past 5 years. Not on their products. Not on their dealership. Not on their service numbers. Not on their strategy. At this point in time, they need to earn my respect.

Originally Posted by CmicasatheGreat

I quoted your entire post because I agree with much of it but there are still many contradictions. The BOLDED part is a true issue with me since U have not even driven one yet... I have, and as for the STS, with the exception to the Engine, being no longer the benchmark, I think the current STS is world class, better than most in it's class, including the Eclass, M45, GS430, A6, and before the 550i got the upgrades... the 5series.

I think SLS is world class. I think STS is trash. I think the A6 is in dire need of a update -- 3 years ago. M45 is junk but has decent performance numbers. E-class is beyond mid-cycle and is old; I would not underestimate Mercedes. 5-series is at mid-cycle and continues solid sales. GS is a wannabe.

I don't believe Cadillac's problem at this point is engine horsepower. Even with Northstar, it's still mid-pack. It will need it in a year or two.
They problem is perception.
I believe CTS is a solid step in that direction, but a more concerted effort on Cadillac's part to standardize th current look and feel of the entire lineup will need to take place because Cadillac is once again taken seriously on a global scale.

Oh yeah... don't start me on Cadillac with OHV engines.

Like I said, I'm anxious on seeing how Cadillac has dealt with the CTS interior. And I'll post my review once I get to experience one first hand.

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

Your comments regarding Cadillac claiming to be the Standard of the World, has never come from any Cadillac information I have seen or read. Anyone talking in those terms is simply not living in the real world and what it takes to transform a business or brand inside a large corporation. I certainly agree with you in regard to where Cadillac should be focused regarding their competition and market customer base. I simply do not agree with your view that everything needs be a particular way to be valuable to luxury buyers. If any luxury brand proves that to be a fact, it is Lexus and to some degree Audi.

I've never said Cadillac was "Standard of the World." I think they've got a long way to go before even starting that tagline again.

I think it has to be a particular way. Whether or not it's a "true" luxury buyer... or someone wanting the luxury image. What these buyers have in common is the want/need for image. It has to be a certain way in order to get both buyers; otherwise, you're not pulling the entire segment.

Originally Posted by jlmartin99

Cadillac's transformation has surely started, but it clearly has many product projects, business processes, capital investments and service levels to complete before it can claim Standard of the World and to some degree, I do not think that is realistic in today's luxury market, but its certainly a worthy objective and goal for Cadillac.

Of course the transformation has started. It is the current results of the Renaissance I have major questions with. I don't believe Cadillac has received their desired results. Unless they intended to lost significant sales of the STS after the 1st model year? Unless they intended for XLR to sell 3/5ths of the annual production? Unless they intended to extend the DTS's life, after announcing 4 years ago, their intent to phase out the DTS? Unless they intended SRX to sell so slowly?

Something has happened at Cadillac during the course of the Renaissance.
I don't believe their goals were met.
Why else would they be tearing out entire lineups and moving to corporate platforms?

JLM. We've never agreed on Cadillac. You're an owner. I want to be an owner. I don't believe Cadillac has a world class product. I believe they have a competitive product that may convince some to come to Cadillac. I believe that they have built a solid mid-range product. Not a standard setter. Not a world beater. But competitive.
I just don't believe Cadillac has the appropriate product to win a sale from my demographic. Not now anyways. I'm not convinced that CTS is that product either.

[ChevroletRevived]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

I'm not convinced that CTS is that product either.

Time will tell! I totally find the CTS being that product for Cadillac. I think it will definitely conquest sales for Cadillac. It's the new class leader, no doubt. Once people start recognizing that (and it won't take them long, with it's awesome styling! ), we'll see some great numbers.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by ChevroletRevived

Time will tell! I totally find the CTS being that product for Cadillac. I think it will definitely conquest sales for Cadillac. It's the new class leader, no doubt. Once people start recognizing that (and it won't take them long, with it's awesome styling! ), we'll see some great numbers.

Absolutely time will tell.

I'm starting to believe CTS is an "exercise" in design and engineering.
based on the reports from here and the media, CTS seems to be quite a competent car. This would be an appropriate opening for the BLS.

GM just needs to be able to engineer a compact car with high quality performance AND a high quality interior at a decent price. CTS seems to do this quite well.

It will only be a matter switching up the pleather interior for a real leather on when the STS dies and CTS takes its place, among other signficant changes to up the CTS. Then BLS can slot in using the same machinations that brought the CTS to us today. That would at least bring BLS in line, look and material-wise with the competition. Then the only other concern would be performance and engine choice.

AT least that's what makes sense to me. THis doesn't take into account the impending marketing disaster of trying to convince people that the "entry level" CTS is now the mid-sizer.

[ChevroletRevived]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Absolutely time will tell.

I'm starting to believe CTS is an "exercise" in design and engineering.
based on the reports from here and the media, CTS seems to be quite a competent car. This would be an appropriate opening for the BLS.

GM just needs to be able to engineer a compact car with high quality performance AND a high quality interior at a decent price. CTS seems to do this quite well.

It will only be a matter switching up the pleather interior for a real leather on when the STS dies and CTS takes its place, among other signficant changes to up the CTS. Then BLS can slot in using the same machinations that brought the CTS to us today. That would at least bring BLS in line, look and material-wise with the competition. Then the only other concern would be performance and engine choice.

AT least that's what makes sense to me. THis doesn't take into account the impending marketing disaster of trying to convince people that the "entry level" CTS is now the mid-sizer.

The way I see it...I have no doubt they can make a very competent BLS and a great price. You know why? Look at the CTS's price point, and all it offers (and it's a larger car). You get a lot for your money with the CTS, it's a great value. It's see it going something like this: a BLS is going to come around or before the CTS'S MCE. Then, Cadillac can move up the CTS in price and features to squarely move it into 5-Series territory. I think Cadillac has it's product strategy sorted out now, it's just going to take some time to see it implemented. Until BLS comes, CTS is going to have to straddle the line between attracting 3-series buyers in price and being a 5 series competitor in style, options, etc. It's just the way it works for right now.

[mikmak]

Wow, a pissing contest on GMI. Who would have thunk it?