Toyota to replace 4 million gas pedals that could jam

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

You did not address the reason I call this BS! The scientific method states that, when conducting experiments you have to eliminate all variables, except those being studied. This experiment has a few variables too many.

• Floor pans of vehicles are not all the same
• All Weather Mats used in vehicles are not all the same
• Gas pedal shape is not the same in all vehicles

So throw all of those variables out the window and you have to look at what is common to the cars covered by this recall and what is NOT common to all other cars on the road. All of the other cars on the road have a variety of floor mats, floor pan designs, gas pedal designs, etc... So what is the only thing common among the vehicles covered in the recall? All controlled by Toyota electronics.

No you found the very reason why only certain models are involved. These models all share the same of very similar pedal / floorpan designs. That's why only these vehicles are involved. Notice that no Siennas, no RAVs, none of the 2010 Prius', no Highlanders, no 4Runners, no Corollas, etc, etc are involved. These models don't have the same risk factors.

Only a few models share the same dual risk factors. Those are the ones being modified. There is no way to stop some bozo from incorrectly using the AWMs. But if said bozo does do something against the instructions after all this attention then certain vehicles need a second step to minimize or eliminate the risk of the pedal being caught and trapped.

This is what the NHTSA has instructed Toyota to do.

You can keep barking up the 'electronics tree' but soon you're going to find that there's nothing there. That's a lot of expended effort with no prize in site. But carry on, woof, woof.

[plane]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

You can keep barking up the 'electronics tree' but soon you're going to find that there's nothing there. That's a lot of expended effort with no prize in site. But carry on, woof, woof.

Do you know for a fact that there has never been a single electronic fault in the drive by wire systems?

• When have these systems been independently tested?
• Who performed the testing?
• What were the results?

How many TSBs has Toyota issued (and it's not zero by the way) to reprogram the Electronic Control Module (ECM) on the vehicles affected by the recall?

Would an ECM be reprogrammed without just cause?

Unless you provide hard evidence of independent testing by the NHTSA or other third party, you cannot rule out the possibility of a control system fault.
You simply cannot.
You've claimed the NHTSA has tested the ECM, show us.
By all means. http://www.nhtsa.gov

[Uzzy]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

No you found the very reason why only certain models are involved. These models all share the same of very similar pedal / floorpan designs. That's why only these vehicles are involved. Notice that no Siennas, no RAVs, none of the 2010 Prius', no Highlanders, no 4Runners, no Corollas, etc, etc are involved. These models don't have the same risk factors.

Only a few models share the same dual risk factors. Those are the ones being modified. There is no way to stop some bozo from incorrectly using the AWMs. But if said bozo does do something against the instructions after all this attention then certain vehicles need a second step to minimize or eliminate the risk of the pedal being caught and trapped.

This is what the NHTSA has instructed Toyota to do.

You can keep barking up the 'electronics tree' but soon you're going to find that there's nothing there. That's a lot of expended effort with no prize in site. But carry on, woof, woof.

A Tundra and a Camry have a very similar floor pan design?

[Dana_15]

Originally Posted by plane

How many "Engine control module (ecm) calibration - shifting enhancement" TSBs has Toyota issued for the vehicles affected by the recall?

There have been other vehicles that have had a similar TSB and they are not affected by this recall. Could it be related? Possibly.

Is it a bad combination of floor mats, floor pans, gas pedals, electronics AND driver/dealer/renter stupidity? Possibly.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Uzzy

A Tundra and a Camry have a very similar floor pan design?

That's not what I meant to say, bad wording after T-Giving dinner. More accurately in the NHTSA's view it's a question of the relationship between the pedal and the floor. It's a dual measurement.

Can the pedal be trapped when some bozo puts All Weather mats in the vehicle incorrectly?

On the ones being modified the answer is yes in the NHTSA's view. On the rest of the product lineup the answer is no.

That's all that can be said.

[AMERICA 123]

Or is it - perhaps for those where mats are not involved, an issue with in the pedal assembly itself ?

Think about it.

Just set everything else aside for a moment and consider.


Part I


1. ) How and what PhishPhood is posting of late.

Its a little bit different isn't it.

Not quite the usual display.

And give him credit - he's now a bird - like a mother Quail trying to lead away from the nest - with a broken wing.... not.


Part II

1. ) As far as incident vehicle information from the NHTSA and Toyota concerning EDR and other on board data et al goes....... there is none except the repeated and non verifiable statement that they have been unable to find in a single instance when examined - of a trouble code / electronic record indicating a large enough to register discrepancy between the APS ( Accelerator pedal Position Sensor ) and the TPS ( Throttle Position Sensor ).

Lets assume this is true. Yeah, I know, do it anyway.

This means then that the pedal assembly position as indicated to the 'ECM' is matching within the horrific slop they allow (yep) to the indicated throttle position.

( Evidently 12 injectors on a Toyota V6 is looking like 6 too many - but surely I digress )

Lets not only assume its being indicated that way but also it is in fact true in a physical sense ie again ignore the other possibilities and assume at least down this trail the TB is in fact operating within limits - and correctly.

Lets remember also that ....

a.) People in many of the instances where floormats are clearly not involved have reported the pedal as displaced downward and in a few instances as having been visibly 'sucked down' towards the floor.

b. ) Then there are the ones where they had presence of mind to get behind the accelerator pedal with their foot or toe somehow and pull it 'up' - but to no avail.

And in turn a few of those 'sound' like they involve a floppy or 'weak' pedal - for a period of time.

c. ) Some others have reported some 'popping' type sound or sounds just before the vehicle returns to normal or more controllable operation meaning less 'push'.

Btw, this is not limited to the Camry Hybrid.

Furthermore, if you take one branch of the many as to where this leads then a non mat SUA event could involve some kind of pedal assembly problem.

This is consistent with everything they are saying except......... that they haven't found 'anything' ....... WHERE ? - in the throttle body assembly itself or the 'ECM'.

Or is it ?

Think about it what they have mentioned and not mentioned - look very carefully at all their statements exactly as spoken.




2. ) They are (now) willing to replace the old pedal assemblies as quickly as they can get the new ones out there.

So, just set slightly to the side the stated reasons for that ie assume the explanation given - possible petal entrapment is quite possibly only part of the story - then they could be basically sneaking a fix in for a none floor pedal interference issue that involves a problematic accelerator pedal assembly.

And in the twisted way they think - they can claim in the ways needed a type of truth if something like this comes out later.

..... 'See - we fixed it'....... 'did the right thing anyway'..........and for all the money x 10 'see stupid, it really was all about pedals and the floor mats.....

Sounds too far fetched ?

Then consider -



3. ) These new pedal assemblies are of a markedly different design.

They are changing a lot more than just taking approximately 20mm ( approx 8/10ths of an inch) off the foot pedal 'pad' length.

Notice as an example, how differently this old pedal assembly compares to the new one.

Notice how and where the pedal assembly return springs ( two in number ) are located .

Notice the differences in 'frame' construction and the 'separation' of certain 'load paths' and separately the joining of certain 'load paths' from and to each other.

_____________


Sigh....we need some photos...... and I do not know how to put them up plus I seem to have extra difficulty with it in regards to this site so......

Here are some that will suffice and that are easily available.

( If anybody can get these ones up - have at it. )

( Down load them - I fully expect them to disappear - eventually )

To see the old pedal assembly including a partial dis-assembly that's critical to the above ( and more - that I'm ignoring ) from a 2007 Tacoma go here -

REPORT NUMBER 124-GTL-07-006

SAFETY COMPLIANCE TESTING FOR FMVSS 124 ACCELERATOR CONTROL SYSTEMS


TOYOTA MOTOR MANUFACTURING CALIFORNIA INC.

2007 TOYOTA TACOMA, TRUCK

NHTSA NO. C75116

GENERAL TESTING LABORATORIES, INC.

1623 LEEDSTOWN ROAD

COLONIAL BEACH, VIRGINIA 22443

http://nhthqnwws111.odi.nhtsa.dot.go...39126-2007.PDF

Lots of relevant photos around page 19 -22 ?

Notice the test results when the springs on the pedal assembly are disabled - one at a time.

Notice btw, although off the topic here what was not done with the throttle body assembly itself.

Take a look at the communications between the Lab and Toyota.

Notice the pass given when a fully functioning 'normal' system has a large discrepancy between the ACTUAL throttle position and the APS.

And btw, you Tacoma people can start to get an idea about some of those other kind of surges.......

****

Go here to see the new style versus old -

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hy...ther-mats.html


Now put the two sets of photos together..... and yes you can do that for good effect although one set is for a Tacoma and one is for a Prius.

If I was a legal party of standing to any of this I'd be doing things like grabbing all kinds of accelerator pedal assemblies...... from around the world.


_______________


Same sort of story quite possible - make it...... IMO very likely with the brake over ride software - and why the on line owner's manuals had whole sections taken down.

Cover up in plain view would be the name of the Movie.

And I after all that is said, most likely there is more to it than the above.

_________

Oh, and Mr. PhishPhood, you keep going with that particular misinformation on the Tacoma said in that particular way on display here...... yet again and yep - count on it, I'll be right behind you.

With more.

And better.

And harder.

- then the 'obvious' material above.

And then it will for sure get interesting - as needed after that.

But I'm optimistic that won't happen because before we reach that last line of departure we'll be tradin' at about seven to one.

They tell me I tend to be conservative about numbers and ratios at times like these - I dunno, although I'm a firm believer in under promise and over deliver.

Just a thought.

[69nova]

Personally, my 89 Taurus that blew the fuses but never was a problem found. I even gave the Ford dealer the car for 3 weeks during which it failed while in their care. Diagnosis--they never found the problem and I traded the car. I may argue that it could be a wiring problem but, again, a delaer saying "nothing wrong". Then, if the Toyota engineers were so 100% sure of no problem with the software, the last thing the corporate attorneys would allow them to do is to add anything remotely tied to the control system. Oh, the product liability lawyers are already getting in line.

[OLDSCHOOLGMFAN]

Dang, that's a lot of pedals!

[goblue]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

No you found the very reason why only certain models are involved. These models all share the same of very similar pedal / floorpan designs. That's why only these vehicles are involved. Notice that no Siennas, no RAVs, none of the 2010 Prius', no Highlanders, no 4Runners, no Corollas, etc, etc are involved. These models don't have the same risk factors.

Only a few models share the same dual risk factors. Those are the ones being modified. There is no way to stop some bozo from incorrectly using the AWMs. But if said bozo does do something against the instructions after all this attention then certain vehicles need a second step to minimize or eliminate the risk of the pedal being caught and trapped.

This is what the NHTSA has instructed Toyota to do.

You can keep barking up the 'electronics tree' but soon you're going to find that there's nothing there. That's a lot of expended effort with no prize in site. But carry on, woof, woof.

So Toyota's original design (pedal / floorpan interface) was flawed in some vehicles.

You see, in the automotive safety world something that causes a much higher risk than competitors - even when used improperly - is a flaw. Inadequate clearance coupled with an angled pedal that acts like a wedge with certain objects.

We all make mistakes - not you apparently - but the rest of us do. We rely on well designed machines to stop those errors from a fatal result. But, I guess in your world we should make 110V and 220V outlets the same and just put a sign on them. If someone's TV explodes and sets the house on fire - well then it's just their stupid mistake. They earned it right?

[alex725]

I dont understand how they can design something to be so close to the floor where it will get stuck. I was looking in my explorer and there is a at least 2-3 inches between the bottom of my pedal and the aftermarket all weather floormats I added.