NHTSA Releases New Info About Crash That Prompted Toyota Floormat Recall

[Dana_15]

Originally Posted by zete

The more that comes out, the more Toyota is screwed.

Wrong. Contrary to what people want to believe this is not true. Yes it is a PR nightmare, but the dealer is at fault. The only people that got screwed are the deceased family, and their families and friends.

[zete]

Originally Posted by prowlerjc

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that statement.

Why? It's a statement from the NHTSA. It's not a statement by a journalist. It's a concern.

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

To be precise...it is impossible for the gas pedal to catch and hold on the OEM carpetted floor mat. Accuracy is important.

I've seen how close the tolerance is on some Toyotas. The bottom of the pedal is close, very close, to the bottom. It should have more clearance. OEM or not, the fact is people do end up replacing their carpets and there should be more clearance. It's not like it's a "high tolerance" piece in the motor or something. An extra cm of space would mean none of this would have happened.

Your second paragraph is gleeful gloating based on your probable incorrect supposition that it's characteristic only of Toyota's.

Gloating? I'm not gloating. I fail to comprehend how you think I'm gloating. Let alone gleefully. It's tragic. I'm just stating what the report stated. And it is unacceptable -- regardless of make. The brakes should always be able to overpower the engine. You'd think that would be normal operating procedure for anyone making a car. Plus, if the brakes are overpowered, then brake stands become quite hard. Not that someone in a Lexus would be prone to do that, but still.

This is not the normal situation that anyone tests even the auto testers at the various mags. Usually its 60 to 0, with the foot off the gas pedal. I'd expect that it's more likely that every vehicle on the road will react the same way if the gas pedal is NOT released at say 120 mph then the brakes are applied full force. That vacuum boost will be depleted very quickly in this case...in every vehicle....thus the stopping distance at full throttle will be increased dramatically.

Wanna bet that the other vehicle makers are checking this right now?

I'd hope so.

And it also makes sense for brakes to be, in this day and age, electric assist. I think BMW uses that now.

Originally Posted by Dana_15

Wrong. Contrary to what people want to believe this is not true. Yes it is a PR nightmare, but the dealer is at fault. The only people that got screwed are the deceased family, and their families and friends.

Sorry, but people won't think "dealer" when they read this they'll think "Toyota". The dealer's name will be quickly forgotten, but not the fact it was a Lexus the family was in nor that the brand is owned by Toyota. It's just how people think/remember. You hear the dealer name once or twice, but you'll hear "Toyota" and "recall" thousands of times for this. It's not like the recall is being handled only by that dealer.

Thus, it's not just a PR nightmare for Toyota it's a nightmare, period.

I've found, through my life, that the little things tend to matter more than the big ones. Thus, when something small goes wrong people think "What else can go wrong?" If something big goes wrong, they'll usually put it down to complexity. It's why people get so irritated when a button breaks on something, but not as much when the whole appliance goes bye-bye. They figure the small item is an indicator of the precision and care taken in the manufacture of the larger item.

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by Dana_15

Wrong. Contrary to what people want to believe this is not true. Yes it is a PR nightmare, but the dealer is at fault. The only people that got screwed are the deceased family, and their families and friends.

Originally Posted by zete

Sorry, but people won't think "dealer" when they read this they'll think "Toyota". The dealer's name will be quickly forgotten, but not the fact it was a Lexus the family was in nor that the brand is owned by Toyota. It's just how people think/remember. You hear the dealer name once or twice, but you'll hear "Toyota" and "recall" thousands of times for this. It's not like the recall is being handled only by that dealer.

Thus, it's not just a PR nightmare for Toyota it's a nightmare, period.

Bingo.

Following the development/production/launch of the Camaro, I can tell you that if anyone has a problem, the blame is immediately pointed at GM, even if GM had no control over the situation. Case in point, dealer mark-ups. GM has no control over what dealers charge for cars, they can only suggest a list price. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people complain about how GM is overpricing their cars using these mark-ups.

When people see this on the news, they won't think, "Oh, the dealer didn't install the floormat correctly," they'll think, "Toyota designed that floormat poorly and four people died because of it."

[zete]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Bingo.

Following the development/production/launch of the Camaro, I can tell you that if anyone has a problem, the blame is immediately pointed at GM, even if GM had no control over the situation. Case in point, dealer mark-ups. GM has no control over what dealers charge for cars, they can only suggest a list price. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people complain about how GM is overpricing their cars using these mark-ups.

When people see this on the news, they won't think, "Oh, the dealer didn't install the floormat correctly," they'll think, "Toyota designed that floormat poorly and four people died because of it."

Enthusiasts have this odd tendency to think everyone out there has an equal clue when it comes to cars. They don't. Thus, if a part breaks on a car, it's the automaker's fault -- even if the part is aftermarket and cheaper and installed by a dealer at the owner's insistence.

[AMERICA 123]

Here is one of the things that is not fully apparent and or 'seems' to defy explanation.

In a generic sense, why not have already run one of Toyota's famous ( or infamous - take your pick ) voluntary campaigns with the right kind of 'fix it' kit or kits ? for mats and pedals.

And no, the current efforts to date do not meet that definition.

Practically speaking in regards to at least some, it looks like you will end up having to re hang the pedal somehow to deal with what Zete is usefully pointing out on clearance and yes' you need to weigh the reputation effects over the legal requirements.

I don't believe for one second that covers the whole problem or topic but it sure as heck does cover much and would, although expensive, probably come out cheaper and better for them if they did in a long term sense.

Just look where all this has been heading - for years and now since they didn't try to nip it hard enough and smart enough early enough .... - now it has to be seen in the light of all the other that has developed.

Has to be carefully constructed of course - don't want to imply things legally and the like - which they know how to do and most certainly have done successfully before.

I'm reminded of the Spanish Conquistadors who wouldn't let go of the gold and drowned in the canals when the Aztecs finally woke up.

Better to be wounded, broke but alive than 'dead' and 'rich'.

They have steadfastly refused to establish a viable firewall on this problem and seriously contain it - or at least the parts that are straightforward to do - at the very least.

Not saying they haven't made an effort - but its been too small and too cheap -

Its looking an awful lot like they're stepping over the thousands to pick up the hundreds ...........

Perhaps they just cannot believe they screwed it up so big in a practical sense.

[Dana_15]

Originally Posted by zete

Enthusiasts have this odd tendency to think everyone out there has an equal clue when it comes to cars. They don't. Thus, if a part breaks on a car, it's the automaker's fault -- even if the part is aftermarket and cheaper and installed by a dealer at the owner's insistence.

You have a point, but realistically this could have happened to just about any manufacturer. The dealer should take responsibility for this.

And not to sound insensitive towards the family that was killed, but the driver was a Police Officer, but maybe he was a know-it-all Police Officer (a stretch I know ) and didn't listen to instructions on how to operate the car. I wonder how the guy planned on shutting the car off when he was done driving.

Too bad he didn't just put the car into neutral or figure out how to shut off the car. I have never been in that situation and hopefully never do (or anyone else) but the dealer is to blame for the floormats. There was an actual recall on the ES350 TWO years ago about this issue:

http://money.cnn.com/2007/09/26/autos/auto_recalls/

You would think if anyone knew about a floormat issue on that same model the dealer would know, but they didn't and now a whole family is dead. This could happen to any vehicle if they double stack some crappy floormats so they can keep the interior clean. Shame on the dealer!

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

In a generic sense, why not have already run one of Toyota's famous ( or infamous - take your pick ) voluntary campaigns with the right kind of 'fix it' kit or kits ? for mats and pedals.

I really didn't understand most of your post (jibberish), but there really isn't much to fix with the floormats. I have a vehicle on the list and I re-installed the factory floormats (installed Weathertechs first day) and I tried to jam the floormat under the accelerator and I could not get to happen, and I was pretty rough with it.

Either way it is a PR nightmare. Toyota hasn't run a campaign (besides the wire ties...) because there really is no way to fix something that isn't broken. Rental agencys and consumers alike must use common sense.....

[Canuck]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

As noted previously, that dealer is in a world of hurts IMO.

• wrong mats
• not secured
• driver given a vehicle with advanced features and no explanation about how to operate them.

Why does any car have to have specific mats? Consumers purchase aftermarket mats at retailers everyday and it does not lead to fatal crashes.

Why do mats have to be secured? Is the carpet under the mats so slippery the mats always get pushed near the pedals?

What is the benefit of these advanced features? How do you know the deceased had not been provided some explanation on how to drive this 'advanced' car?

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Dana_15

Wrong. Contrary to what people want to believe this is not true. Yes it is a PR nightmare, but the dealer is at fault. The only people that got screwed are the deceased family, and their families and friends.

Depends on your point of view.

Lets see, Rose Toyota ( different dealer ) opened in San Diego when ??? - ok well, basically for 40 plus plus years ( maybe almost 50 ) -Toyota products operated in San Diego County didn't have all these design shortcomings grouped together like this so from a different point of view all the dealers are 'now' 'getting screwed' because 'now' Toyota provides a product that dramatically increases the likelihood of a liability suit.

Operationally, they have to spend more time and effort avoiding the wrong combination s of mats and vehicles and so forth.

Originally Posted by Dana_15

You have a point, but realistically this could have happened to just about any manufacturer.

Nope. Nobody screwed up their design process like Toyota did - hey you know if they can't properly engineer a gas pedal floormat interface - what else do you think they missed ?

Maybe its time for GM to bring back - " We sweat the details " - " including floormats" ?

I'd like Howie to deliver that.

The dealer should take responsibility for this.

No question and they will, one way or another.

And not to sound insensitive towards the family that was killed, but the driver was a Police Officer, but maybe he was a know-it-all Police Officer (a stretch I know ) and didn't listen to instructions on how to operate the car. I wonder how the guy planned on shutting the car off when he was done driving.

Here, this will help - you ( can) dig yourself out later.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...,1101556.story

latimes.com/news/local/la-fi-toyota-death18-2009oct18,0,1101556.story
latimes.com

Despite CHP officer's vehicle safety training, he couldn't control runaway Lexus

The crash killed driver Mark Saylor, 45, and his family.

By Tony Perry

October 18, 2009

Reporting from San Diego

Mark Saylor, 45, was known as a stickler for detail in the California Highway Patrol, where he had served for years as a patrol officer and more recently as a vehicle safety inspector.

But his life was cut short when the Lexus ES 350 he was driving accelerated out of control, an incident that may be related to similar crashes involving improperly positioned floor mats in certain Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

"It was pretty unbelievable.," said Mike May, a CHP officer who counted Saylor as a dear friend. "He didn't just die, he was killed."

May remembers Saylor for his conservative politics, strong Christian faith and love of sports.

Saylor played baseball for many years, until he was injured by a drunk driver while on duty four years ago.

The injuries also led Saylor to transfer from CHP road duty to a position testing drivers and examining heavy vehicles.

Saylor, an Air Force veteran and the son of a St. Louis police officer, was an only child, but his wife came from a large Filipino American family and he liked the idea of family.

A 50-second cellphone call was placed to 911 just before the crash, in which Chris Lastrella told a dispatcher that the accelerator was stuck and that the brakes weren't working.

Saylor "did everything he could to avoid crashing," said John Gomez, a San Diego attorney representing the parents of the couple. "He was trained in all the defensive driving tactics."

CHP Officer John Concepcion, a close friend of Saylor, said he believed that Saylor tried to forestall an accident by staying away from certain freeways and offramps.

"He had the foresight to call 911 and tell them there was going to be a crash."

The ES 350 was traveling north of Highway 125 and as the car approached the end of the freeway at Mission Gorge Road, either Saylor or Chris Lastrella could be heard on the cellphone call saying, "pray, pray."

May said that those last words, whoever spoke them, were how Saylor lived his life.

"He was a smart guy," May said. "I used to tell him, dude, you should go on 'Jeopardy.' "

tony.perry@latimes.com

Copyright © 2009, The Los Angeles Times

So see, your little game of innuendo and speculation - and implied character assassination of the deceased Officer along with suggesting he was somehow deficit just looks well, 'in poor taste' ?

Too bad he didn't just put the car into neutral or figure out how to shut off the car.

How do you know that he didn't or that he didn't try for a lower gear, or reverse, or park ?

You would think if anyone knew about a floormat issue on that same model the dealer would know, but they didn't and now a whole family is dead. This could happen to any vehicle if they double stack some crappy floormats so they can keep the interior clean. Shame on the dealer!

Ah ..... so the RX400H floormats used here are crappy ?

I really didn't understand most of your post (jibberish),

Its not "jibberish" its "counterspin" - completely different dialogue than you speak.

Try the infirmary, the corpsman or take it to the Chaplain - maybe they can help.

but there really isn't much to fix with the floormats.

Sure there is - and the rest of the vehicle as well including dirt cheap software safety nets that are inexcusably missing.

Toyota hasn't run a campaign (besides the wire ties...)

Don't give up on the 'jibberish' - you got the gift.

You also just contradicted yourself - all recalls at Toyota have 'campaigns' assigned to them by Toyota itself.

because there really is no way to fix something that isn't broken. Rental agencys and consumers alike must use common sense.....

There you go, you skipped the Lexus Dealer you ragged on further back -

If common sense had been used by Toyota when designing their electronic throttlebody systems, the supporting software, their pedal assemblages, and their floormats there would be nothing to talk about here would there ?

I guess the BEGGIN' ( yep) that's going on by the NHTSA for a formal recall is something you are unaware of - as is Toyota's legalistic defense that one is not 'required' ?

[Dana_15]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Operationally, they have to spend more time and effort avoiding the wrong combination s of mats and vehicles and so forth.

Wrong again. Its simple, put the floor mats in the right vehicle that they are designed for. Especially one THAT ALREADY HAD A RECALL two years prior for floor mats getting stuck under the accelerator.

I bet if I took my Toyota All Weather Mats off of my 4Runner and put it in a Silverado the clips wouldn't line up and it would get jammed under the brake pedal. So by your reasoning that would be GM's fault.

Initial Toyota Statement:

In 2007, Toyota and Lexus conducted a Safety Recall on all-weather floor mats for the 2007 and early 2008 Camry and ES 350. During our investigation prior to the recall, it was noted that driver’s floor mat interference with the accelerator pedal is possible in any vehicle make with any combination of floor mats when the floor mat is not properly secured or if it is not the factory designed floor mat for your vehicle.

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

How do you know that he didn't or that he didn't try for a lower gear, or reverse, or park ?

I don't. But if he was on the phone for 50 seconds and the car was going over 120 mph, obviously it was still in gear. It really is too bad he couldn't get the mat away from the pedal.

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

Its not "jibberish" its "counterspin" - completely different dialogue than you speak.

Actually it was jibberish, kind of like this is my personal soapbox so I am going to complain.

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

You also just contradicted yourself - all recalls at Toyota have 'campaigns' assigned to them by Toyota itself.

Wrong again. Is there a recall for this floormat mess?

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

If common sense had been used by Toyota when designing their electronic throttlebody systems, the supporting software, their pedal assemblages, and their floormats there would be nothing to talk about here would there ?

Maybe, but I all I have been reading is all speculation...so far.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Canuck

Why does any car have to have specific mats? Consumers purchase aftermarket mats at retailers everyday and it does not lead to fatal crashes.

Why do mats have to be secured? Is the carpet under the mats so slippery the mats always get pushed near the pedals?

What is the benefit of these advanced features? How do you know the deceased had not been provided some explanation on how to drive this 'advanced' car?

You didn't read the original report nor the recent update.

The floor mats that come with the vehicle are not to blame. These mats cannot come into contact with the pedal and even if they could they aren't heavy enough to hold the pedal down. These are NOT the issue.

The issue is that it appears that non-OEM mats for a larger vehicle were placed ontop of the OEM carpetted mats. These mats were too large and too heavy. These mats also were not secured in place, they apparently were just laid ontop of the the OEM ones. It's these AWMs that caused the problem.

The AWMs should never have been in the vehicle in the first place but when they were used they should have been secured - but they weren't. As Dana15 noted there was an NHTSA investigation and report on this issue back in 2007. At that time both Toyota and the NHTSA instructed owners and stores NOT to stack the AWMs on top of one another. This Lexus store ignored that warning.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Dana_15

Wrong again. Its simple, put the floor mats in the right vehicle that they are designed for. Especially one THAT ALREADY HAD A RECALL two years prior for floor mats getting stuck under the accelerator.

I bet if I took my Toyota All Weather Mats off of my 4Runner and put it in a Silverado the clips wouldn't line up and it would get jammed under the brake pedal. So by your reasoning that would be GM's fault.

Initial Toyota Statement:

In 2007, Toyota and Lexus conducted a Safety Recall on all-weather floor mats for the 2007 and early 2008 Camry and ES 350. During our investigation prior to the recall, it was noted that driver’s floor mat interference with the accelerator pedal is possible in any vehicle make with any combination of floor mats when the floor mat is not properly secured or if it is not the factory designed floor mat for your vehicle.

Correct

I don't. But if he was on the phone for 50 seconds and the car was going over 120 mph, obviously it was still in gear. It really is too bad he couldn't get the mat away from the pedal.

Actually it was his brother-in-law in the backseat that was on the phone to 911. This was some time after the vehicle started to get 'out of control' and the call lasted for a minute or two iirc.

The 'black box' in the vehicle will have more info on what the driver tried to do or didn't try to do.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by Dana_15

I bet if I took my Toyota All Weather Mats off of my 4Runner and put it in a Silverado the clips wouldn't line up and it would get jammed under the brake pedal.

- But you miss the bigger better more telling points involved like - you could probably go the other way ie Toyota into GM and not have a problem - which basically how its always worked ie if you can 'fit' the mat it doesn't foul or if it does foul it does right away. #2. A bunch of just previous Toyota / Lexus product did not have these problems.

I don't. But if he was on the phone for 50 seconds and the car was going over 120 mph, obviously it was still in gear.

First of all the vehicle was out of control for much more than 50 seconds. Two and a half minutes is likely to be more like it . Second, Officer Mark Saylor did not place the 50 second call to 911 just before impact. Chris Lastrella, the brother in law did from the back seat - and finally, what if the selector was moved..... and the vehicle didn't respond ????

It really is too bad he couldn't get the mat away from the pedal.

Its really too bad the NHTSA didn't wait for the San Diego Sheriff's Department and the California Highway Patrol to finish their investigations and issue a joint statement.

Gee, why did they show up and then also issue an initial report so quick ?

[Dana_15]

^^I think we all can agree that this is a tragedy and hopefully it doesn't happen again. But putting the blame on Toyota is crazy and ignorant. They don't own the dealership.

It is unfortunate but hopefully something good comes of this. Maybe the pedals are too low. Maybe holding a button in for three seconds to shut a vehicle off is "bad idea". Does it need to be shorter, or does it just need to go away...???