NHTSA Releases New Info About Crash That Prompted Toyota Floormat Recall

[TuffG929]

Originally Posted by Autobog

Contrary to previous reports, the death of a four people and the largest recall in Toyota's history was caused by a compound of errors. The initial buzz/word on the virtual street suggested that it was simply an improperly placed floor mat that doomed CHP officer Mark Saylor and three family members when the Lexus ES350 they were traveling in got jammed open at over 100 MPH before crashing and bursting into flames. But it turns out it was more than just a floor mat.

First of all, the floor mat in question didn't belong to the ES350 (actually, the ES350 didn't belong to Officer Saylor -- it was a dealer loaner while his car was being worked on). The mats in the ES350 that crashed were from a RX400h. Not only that, they were those thick, all-weather hard rubber mats. Regardless, because the dealer had placed the wrong mats into the wrong car, there was no way to properly mount them. Also, it seems that the pedal design of the ES350 also played a role. The NHTSA discovered that, "Beyond the main pivot, the lever is not hinged and has no means for relieving forces caused by interferences." We think that means it can easily get stuck.

But that's not all. The NHTSA had also learned from a previous ES350 investigation that, "the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold." That's not good. And the brakes had signs of heavy wear and damage, "Rotors were discolored and heated, had very rough surfaces, had substantial deposits of brake pad material, and showed signs of bright orange oxidation on the cooling fins consistent with endured braking."

Additionally, because the Lexus has push button start, the operator must push the button for three seconds before the engine will shut off. A piece of info obviously and sadly not known by Officer Saylor. The San Diego County Sheriff's office is leading the investigation and has not yet released their final report. We'll keep you posted on that, but as they say in plane crashes, looks like the holes in the swiss cheese all lined up.

LINK

[PhishPhood]

As noted previously, that dealer is in a world of hurts IMO.

• wrong mats
• not secured
• driver given a vehicle with advanced features and no explanation about how to operate them.

[RamJet502]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

As noted previously, that dealer is in a world of hurts IMO.

• wrong mats
• not secured
• driver given a vehicle with advanced features and no explanation about how to operate them.

Accidents happen, I'm sure there is a lot of blame to go around. Why would they announce a floor mat recall if the floor mats in question weren't even supposed to be in that car?

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by RamJet502

Accidents happen, I'm sure there is a lot of blame to go around. Why would they announce a floor mat recall if the floor mats in question weren't even supposed to be in that car?

Not surprisingly the press and media are entirely wrong. I've mentioned it here several times in several threads but ... there is no recall. That's a presumptive fabrication by the press which every cursory reader has taken for gospel. There is no recall. You can look it up on the NHTSA website.

There is a safety advisory for those that wish to follow it. It has nothing to do with the NHTSA in anyway. The safety advisory states..

• Do NOT sell any more All Weather mats ( Toyota Stores )
• Do NOT stack mats on top of one another ( owners and stores )
• If an owner wishes, dispose of the driver's side mat.
• If an owner wishes to keep the driver's side mat, make sure that the OEM carpetted mat is secured properly.
• If an owner wishes an added level of security, use the zip-ties to doubly secure the driver's side mat.

[MrCritical]

So the customer got a loaner vehicle from the dealer that had brakes with "heavy wear and damage".

The jury will love that.

[XenoRad]

The dealer gave me rubber mats for free when I bought my Corolla. They can't be secured (since they're most likely not for the Corolla) but generally I don't have a problem with them since they rarely slide out of place.

However there were two times when they caused minor issues.

The first was when I still hadn't trimmed the excess rubber from the driver's side one making it long enough to be caught by the clutch when it (the mat) sat 1 or so inches further forward than normal. The clutch only rubbed against it simply giving the pedal an unnatural feel when slowly released. After trimming the excess rubber such an issue never resurfaced.

The second issue was when somehow I managed to get part of the mat over the accelerator. It just made the pedal feel mushy. It didn't hold it down at all.

I might do a test and see if it is possible to get the accelerator stuck down (or held down) with the mat, but it's doubtful considering the accelerator pedal and mat design in my car.

[BlackGTP]

I think the floormat issue is more related to Toyota's design of the gas pedal and the start/stop button. Millions of aftermarket floormats have been sold and are used on all makes. We haven't heard of such issues in Chevy's, MB's, Honda's, etc - just Toyota. The real question is: is it sloppy engineering at fault or just a freak mistake?

[vsd]

Originally Posted by BlackGTP

I think the floormat issue is more related to Toyota's design of the gas pedal and the start/stop button. Millions of aftermarket floormats have been sold and are used on all makes. We haven't heard of such issues in Chevy's, MB's, Honda's, etc - just Toyota. The real question is: is it sloppy engineering at fault or just a freak mistake?

The mats from the wrong car were placed in the one that crashed. More like negligence, not a freak mistake.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by vsd

The mats from the wrong car were placed in the one that crashed. More like negligence, not a freak mistake.

In addition the wrong All Weather mats were placed on top of the normal carpetted mats...and not secured in place apparently. A double mistake.

Then the driver was not shown how to operate the new vehicle properly. A triple mistake.

[zete]

There seems to be little clearance between the bottom of the gas pedal on some Toyotas and the floor. I can see how a carpet, pushed forward, can jam the pedal. I always thought that was a stupid design, and this shows up as something that killed the family. The NHTSA indicates the design is seriously flawed as well.

Then we have this: "the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold." What kind of car has this "feature"? This implies that the brakes can't overpower the throttle, which is a horrible design/engineering mistake. And one that would imply that a driver might not realize the car was even braking if the stopping distance was suddenly 5 times normal, so over 500 feet. Horrible horrible engineering.

The more that comes out, the more Toyota is screwed.

[prowlerjc]

Originally Posted by zete

Then we have this: "the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold."

I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that statement.

[Tone]

IIRC correctly, this statement isn't entirely correct "The NHTSA had also learned from a previous ES350 investigation that, "the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold."

The investigation found (and I'm not sure how they tested this) that the vaccume power assist for the brakes is quickly lost if the throttle is wide open. I'd imagine that would be true for all cars that rely on vaccume for power assisted brakes.

This should in no way influence braking power, but it would greatly increase the amount of pressure/force needed at the brake pedal to produce a given amount of braking power. Again, IIRC, that's where the five-fold increase came from.

I've never driven a car with power-assisted brakes that required even moderately-heavy pressure, so I'd imagine that even a five-fold increase should be managable for an average strength male.

But, like the engine power button (which must be pushed for a minimum of 3 seconds to kill engine power while moving), a sudden, five-fold increase in brake pedal pressure might feel an awful lot like the brakes are completely gone. I remember reading that when anti-lock brakes came out, many people responded to the pulsing pedal by taking their foot OFF the brake.

To me, it still sounds like the problem is a fairly non-intuitive interface. That was the concluion of Audi's sudden acceleration issue in the 1980s as well. Automakers change the familiar driver interface that their (and our) peril -- trying to figure out unfamiliar and non-intuitive controls in an emergency is a recipie for disaster.

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by zete

There seems to be little clearance between the bottom of the gas pedal on some Toyotas and the floor. I can see how a carpet, pushed forward, can jam the pedal. I always thought that was a stupid design, and this shows up as something that killed the family. The NHTSA indicates the design is seriously flawed as well.

Then we have this: "the Lexus ES braking system loses power-assist when the throttle is fully opened, increasing braking distance fivefold." What kind of car has this "feature"? This implies that the brakes can't overpower the throttle, which is a horrible design/engineering mistake. And one that would imply that a driver might not realize the car was even braking if the stopping distance was suddenly 5 times normal, so over 500 feet. Horrible horrible engineering.

The more that comes out, the more Toyota is screwed.

To be precise...it is impossible for the gas pedal to catch and hold on the OEM carpetted floor mat. Accuracy is important.

Your second paragraph is gleeful gloating based on your probable incorrect supposition that it's characteristic only of Toyota's.

This is not the normal situation that anyone tests even the auto testers at the various mags. Usually its 60 to 0, with the foot off the gas pedal. I'd expect that it's more likely that every vehicle on the road will react the same way if the gas pedal is NOT released at say 120 mph then the brakes are applied full force. That vacuum boost will be depleted very quickly in this case...in every vehicle....thus the stopping distance at full throttle will be increased dramatically.

Wanna bet that the other vehicle makers are checking this right now?

[Buick61]

Originally Posted by MrCritical

So the customer got a loaner vehicle from the dealer that had brakes with "heavy wear and damage".

The jury will love that.

I believe the heavy wear and damage was from the driver trying to stop the car with the throttle floored, and not from a pre-existing condition.

[solman98]

Who ever is to blame is kinda moot. This happened and could potentially happen again. Toyota definatly had some issues here, driver had some also. Had he stopped the engine before? For panic situations, doe's not look good for the push button start systems. Once this gets out, more might shy away from them.

Does this model have a hand brake or foot brake? I'm just wondering if the driver even tried to use it (button pressed of course to not lock the wheels).