A closer look at Toyota's sudden acceleration problem

[jzchev28]

Originally Posted by Danko

Sorry about the officer and his family but this is a stupid-sounding thread. A Toyota with sudden acceleration? I don't think so.............

now thats funny right there. thats like saying toyoda makes a real "truck"

[AMERICA 123]

There are creditable reports that driver selection of neutral, a lower forward gear, reverse and even park does not produce the desired or a 'desired' result.

And another thing.

At this time, it does not appear as if all possible vehicles and years that are suspect behave in exactly the same way and or are 'expressing' the same problem for the exact same set of reasons.

As an example, the Tacoma seems to involve either a cruise control command change or more often a tap on or application of the brake pedal as some sort of 'trigger'.

They definitely do not all use the same exact pedal assembly - and they don't even all foul on a mat and or different mats in exactly the same way either.

On this particular incident, also bear in mind that the total length of time has been seriously estimated as of at least two and half minutes.

Given the Officer's specific background, that is an eternity and makes it more likely that panic driven brain fade did not rule the day - ie more likely but not for certain that he tried to do all things possible - including moving the gear selector.

At some point, I doubt he would have had a problem with trying to grab reverse, park or neutral and especially at least a downshift or two.

Three seconds on the 'start/stop' button is the one most up in the air.

The phone call at the end has been reported as of 50 seconds total duration.

Notice btw, no one has disclosed what kind of Lexus the family owned and had taken in for service.

Until that is disclosed..... and it speaks volumes about many things that it has not, all we can say is that its entirely possible it was also an ES 350.

Based on just sales volume, an ES or RX are the two most likely candidates - which neither proves or disproves anything.

The only thing certain - either way btw, is that software safety nets are lacking concerning highly relevant simultaneous brake and throttle commands - or, maybe that does not say it correctly so - simultaneous brake application and throttle application.

[MrCritical]

Agreed.

Next, they'll be saying Toyota's roll over, frames rust in two, tailgates and camshafts break, ect. Better nip this in the bud now.

[PhishPhood]

More info. Nothing new to add to what's known already.

NHTSA Releases New Info About Crash That Prompted Toyota Floormat Recall

[CACressida]

Originally Posted by MrCritical

Agreed.

Next, they'll be saying Toyota's roll over, frames rust in two, tailgates and camshafts break, ect. Better nip this in the bud now.

I'm really not a fan of the Tundra, but this camshaft issue is just beatin to death. 20 camshafts from faulty castings. Not a single camshaft issue after the 20. Give it a rest already.

If the driver attempted to shift the vehicles gear selector, the gear selector is linked via a cable that moves the bracket to the gear selector on the side of the transaxle. You shift into neutral, it mechanically puts the gear box in neutral.

Based on experience with my automatic transmission in my Cressidas, if you try to downshift and your exceeding the speed for that certain gear, it wont downshift because downshifts are electronically controlled via little solenoids in the transmission.

But if you put it in N-R or P, those are mechanically controlled. I'm not sure of how the ES350, but if the gear selector is actually linked to the transaxle via a conventional cable, then the driver didn't shift the selector in N,R,P. Just my theory.

[Hunid Racks]

Toyota got hammered on Nightline last night, claims of grassroots organizations complaining, over 2,000 uncontrolled accelerations.

Let's see them sweep this under the rug. Let's see who spews the company garbage for Toyota on this one.

[AMERICA 123]

And then there are some other questions ( lots) as well like -

Tragic details are revealed in NHTSA memo about the Lexus that crashed at almost 100 MPH after the gas pedal became stuck on the floormat, leading to the immolation and death of the four family-members inside, and Toyota's 3.8 million vehicle recall.

Thoughts:
1. "The Lexus eventually came to rest in a dry riverbed where it burned for an extended period of time." Presumably, the family inside also burned for an extended period of time.

2. "No attempts to retrieve data from the EDR [Event Data Recorder] have yet been made." Why not?

2. Why <is> significant factor #5 < now > blacked out?

http://consumerist.com/5393553/memo-...xus-crash-pics

So given the time lines involved approximately 25 -30 days after the accident nobody has retrieved data from the EDR.

" Interesting "

- and its happened before........lots of times.

The NHTSA Memorandum and initial 'inspection' ( cursory visual 'viewing' is more like it ) - which has now been edited represented IMO a highly unsatisfactory effort to begin with yet it STILL had to be redacted.

So what has been removed ???

I'll do it this way.

The two obvious areas of interest now not mentioned concern aspects of the brake system function and the gear shift select 'system' - and function.

On the brakes - its not just about booster vacuum exhaustion - there is what can be called thermal capacity exhaustion as well.

Among the many highly unsatisfactory aspects of this NHTSA Memorandum - and commented on by certain individual reporters including at the LA Times is that given the horrific impacts, rolls, and the following fire - when exactly did the bonded to the pedal mat come in contact with the peddle assembly - and did all of that also effect the mat securing 'clips' - and given the cursory inspection why was the Memorandum written in such a way as to imply -

Also missing was comment and documentation concerning contradictory information contained in the owners manual.

No mention of Reverse and Park position lock outs.

No mention of downshift defeats.

As far as highly relevant factors - more is missing than is included especially when one considers best coping strategies.


________________


And related, notice so far nobody has reported and or done the obvious - as in for years.... take one up to 100 -120 -130 and simulate things more exactly in real world conditions in a safe environment - like the right kind of track.

Whether deliberate or not so far, organizations such CR and the NHTSA seem to be obfuscating the real issues here.

Notice the speed at which CR did their little test at.

Notice the sequencing there and in the Toyota provided information on how to deal with it if it occurs.


In my opinion, none of that's being fully explained and either way, when this gets done investigations and heads rolling are most definitely going to be in order.

What does seem to becoming clearer is that once one gets above 100mph you got a one shot deal to apply a sequential " immediate action " and you need to do things exactly right ( - and quickly ) or....... you're basically done if you can't figure out a viable impact strategy.

This is another aspect of the topic - one that some seem do not want discussed.

Basically when you put together what we now know through published sources - while ignoring the highly likely possibility of more and better disturbing information to come...... Officer Mark Saylor and his family in practical terms didn't have much of a chance.

This should not have been so.

[383_torque]

I saw Nightline last night also. Loved it!

The problem has almost nothing to do with floor mats or the ECM at this point. It is all about Toyota's handling of the problem. DENY, DENY, DENY!

Don't companies learn anything from the past? GM had the dual gas tank issue and Ford had the Pinto. Look how they handled those problems (What problem?). For Toyota to blame driver error and floor mats is laughable. They are pouring gas on the fire!

Ha Ha! Idiots!

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by Hunid Racks

Toyota got hammered on Nightline last night, claims of grassroots organizations complaining, over 2,000 uncontrolled accelerations.

Let's see them sweep this under the rug. Let's see who spews the company garbage for Toyota on this one.

Originally Posted by 383_torque

I saw Nightline last night also. Loved it!

The problem has almost nothing to do with floor mats or the ECM at this point. It is all about Toyota's handling of the problem. DENY, DENY, DENY!

Don't companies learn anything from the past? GM had the dual gas tank issue and Ford had the Pinto. Look how they handled those problems (What problem?). For Toyota to blame driver error and floor mats is laughable. They are pouring gas on the fire!

Ha Ha! Idiots!

Your joy at ABC News' speculation is palable. However don't be too disappointed when the NHTSA findings come out and the probable cause ends up being.....the wrong All Weather mats installed in the wrong vehicle.

[383_torque]

Your joy at ABC News' speculation is palable. However don't be too disappointed when the NHTSA findings come out and the probable cause ends up be.....the wrong All Weather mats installed in the wrong vehicle.

Ha! You should go to the Nightline website. The show was awesome. One guy who was able to get his foot completely under the accelerator and pull up in a failed attempt to stop his car (might have worked in the old linkage days). Toyota told him it was the mat. Second case didn't even have floor mats. Toyota told him that he was hitting the gas instead of the brake when he went off the cliff in Central California. Classic denials!

Attorney has 2,000 documented cases that went up dramatically when Toyota went to electronic control.

Yeah, floormats!

[PhishPhood]

Originally Posted by 383_torque

Ha! You should go to the Nightline website. The show was awesome. One guy who was able to get his foot completely under the accelerator and pull up in a failed attempt to stop his car (might have worked in the old linkage days). Toyota told him it was the mat. Second case didn't even have floor mats. Toyota told him that he was hitting the gas instead of the brake when he went off the cliff in Central California. Classic denials!

Attorney has 2,000 documented cases that went up dramatically when Toyota went to electronic control.

Yeah, floormats!

And in both these cases there is documented video proof of both of these situations happening? No, in fact there is nothing. It's the word of the two involved. Get the data from the black boxes. That will show what did or did not happen. What you say are documented cases are actually operator reports. Where's the supporting data from the vehicle?

Nice try, Epic Fail coming from ABC News. But you can keep on hoping. This is Audi all over again.

[Dana_15]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

Nice try, Epic Fail coming from ABC News. But you can keep on hoping. This is Audi all over again.

Nice! What you don't believe everything you see on TV?

Some people do when it fits their "agenda".

[84Cressida]

Originally Posted by 383_torque

Ha! You should go to the Nightline website. The show was awesome. One guy who was able to get his foot completely under the accelerator and pull up in a failed attempt to stop his car (might have worked in the old linkage days). Toyota told him it was the mat. Second case didn't even have floor mats. Toyota told him that he was hitting the gas instead of the brake when he went off the cliff in Central California. Classic denials!

Attorney has 2,000 documented cases that went up dramatically when Toyota went to electronic control.

Yeah, floormats!

But I've been told the media is biased. Or is that only when they don't give praise to the Chevy Uplander?

[70W30]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

And in both these cases there is documented video proof of both of these situations happening? No, in fact there is nothing. It's the word of the two involved. Get the data from the black boxes. That will show what did or did not happen. What you say are documented cases are actually operator reports. Where's the supporting data from the vehicle?

Nice try, Epic Fail coming from ABC News. But you can keep on hoping. This is Audi all over again.

I'm sorry, but I would like to respect Fishfood. He talks about being a bigwig in this or that steel company but all he is here is a shill for Toyota.

Dude, claim this or that, but big words do not make a CEO.

You claims are more than enough to sink your ass. Facts sink you most every time here recently.

And guess what, my vocabulary is bigger than your's. Try a new tact.

Knowing words might work with some. Not me little man.

[70W30]

Originally Posted by PhishPhood

And in both these cases there is documented video proof of both of these situations happening? No, in fact there is nothing. It's the word of the two involved. Get the data from the black boxes. That will show what did or did not happen. What you say are documented cases are actually operator reports. Where's the supporting data from the vehicle?

Nice try, Epic Fail coming from ABC News. But you can keep on hoping. This is Audi all over again.

Remember one thing.

60 minutes BURIED Audi.

In that case it was wrong.

In this?

Not so much.

Those that love everything Toyota will not change right now, but remember one thing.

It starts somewhere.