Acura TSX to receive 54MPG diesel engine

[AMERICA 123]

I'll go the other way.

Whatever else can be said, Honda appears to have a winner on their hands - if they employ it properly AND that self gen emissions system holds up - in the USA.

The best of BMW, VW/AUDI, and MB are/maybe even better but noooo, everybody in Europe ALSO sits there with their thumbs up their ass as Honda, good 'ole antidiesel - late to the game Honda, prepares to go sailing by.

This should also go into the RDX ASAP ie faster than currently 'indicated'.

*************************************************

This illustrates two great universal truths concerning the current American automotive scene;

1. ) America's completely uncoordinated energy/environmental/safety automotive 'programs' and especially those concerning diesel/ Bio diesel are costing us big time - right now.

2. ) The currently fashionable 'conversation' to bemoan previously discontinued efforts concerning electric and battery electric hybrid programs is a case of second best not first.

This is a universal, industry wide phenomenon - talk about not gettin' it......

To illustrate, just really consider the following;

The really big opportunity in this market missed by virtually all of them was an intelligent 2.0L I4/3.0LV6 TURBO DIESEL contingency program that was deploy able from February 2008 forward.

I don't care who you like or who you work for or what you believe the future really holds for powertrains in general - or even if you dislike diesel - think like a profit oriented businessman - just go ahead - take your favorite brand or division or whatever and arm them with those two sizes of diesel - and figure what that would really mean -RIGHT NOW - including charging a decent premium and netting a decent profit.

Whatever you want to say about it, it sure as hell would've been better than what we got now - for any of 'em.

Still don't get it ????

Do I really need to point out that people are paying 5 -10 k for ratty old small cars that get decent fuel economy - which represents approx a 4,500 to

5,000$ plus premium - for vehicles like a beat up 10 year old Geo Metro ?????

CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF GROUP THINK - with poor contingency planning and no feel for the market and its likely response.


Its not just about our domestics who seriously need a leg up NOW and would've benefited the most with something like this.

Toyota and Honda could've salvaged a large number of their very different big vehicle programs - although a modern 4.0L V8 modular addition would've knocked it out of the park for Toyota - or really anyone but Honda.

And don't tell me that it wasn't feasible - see Cummins 'clean' 6.75L I6 time line - add a little money - and don't try and tell me that would've been too much - 2 -7% of whats been pissed away on electric battery hybridization would've covered it.

Thats the out of the box thinking they all missed as far as SENSIBLE contingency plans go - plans that would've made sense going forward - whether used right now or not.

Massive FAIL

BY ALL OF THEM

INCLUDING VW AND HONDA

PERIOD

[igor]

SURE - just like the Jetta was getting a 60mpg Diesel ..

reality: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008c...f.jsp?id=25317

And as much as I love Diesel cars (the VW Jetta TDI SportWagen is 99% exactly what I want in my next car) - with gas at $4.05 and diesel at $5.40 (in Philly) - the advantage of the Diesel completely disappear - if the two get closer in price - look for a while Jetta Wagon TDI in my driveway.

Igor

[igor]

Originally Posted by mustfield

Motor Authority is an American site. Those are American numbers. The British imperial gallon units are higher. (highway mileage = 61.4mpg, city mileage = 39mpg)

see my post above .... the VW 2.0l TDI was t get at least 55 or 60 mpg - it was regurgitated over and over in all media .. the reality? 30/41 ...


Igor

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by igor

see my post above .... the VW 2.0l TDI was t get at least 55 or 60 mpg - it was regurgitated over and over in all media .. the reality? 30/41 ...


Igor

First, work on your math skills and your cost to own model - widen out your range of possible outcomes to include a bigger piece of whats likely.

Second, ask yourself this, is a VW diesel that pulls down 10-20- 25% better than EPA for many - some to most of time more desirable than say something HSD equipped that goes the other way - and is going to require battery and battery related replacements that cost thousands of dollars at some point in their operational life - unless you like throwing cars away at the 8 -12 year mark.

An informed guess - subject to verification is that at least a usable part of the difference between the projected numbers here for VW and Honda's larger engine is due to VW's current test and reporting method, - yea its dumb on their part but it is what it is and irregardless ( for both - for all ) we know that the 'EPA' method for diesels contains an extra severe correction factor that they themselves indicate contains approx an 18% underestimation ERROR - WITH A DATA BASE OF EXACTLY ONE VEHICLE FOR COMPARISON.

[igor]

Originally Posted by AMERICA 123

First, work on your math skills and your cost to own model - widen out your range of possible outcomes to include a bigger piece of whats likely.

Second, ask yourself this, is a VW diesel that pulls down 10-20% better than EPA for many/most of time more desirable than say something HSD equipped that goes the other way - and is going to require battery and battery related replacements that cost thousands of dollars at some point in their operational life - unless you like throwing cars away at the 8 -12 year mark.

I am not a hybrid person - and ICE is enough technology for me ....

what I am saying is that there is NO WAY the TSX will get 54mpg on EPA's test - and at the end of the day - that is all that matters.

I recently test drove the Ford Edge - I got 33mpg on a relaxed highway driving - but it was 55-60mpg relaxed and simply ideal MPG situation.

I have driven enough car to know that surpassing EPA in a real world situation does not happen. Sure you can sustain some impressive HWY mileage for say an hour - but by the time you have to fill up - you drop back to +-EPA or lower. At least I do.

I love diesels - as I said - however I will not buy one if I am looking to pay more at the pump than with a regular I4 or I5 car.

However - that - is bedsides my key point, which was that 54mpg EPA will NOT happen - and that is all I care about and all the buyers care about.

Igor

[New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66]

This is what I'm talking about. GM needs to offer a similar engine to it's sedans. Perhaps start with the CTS. Absorb some development costs in your higher priced products. That's what Honda is doing.

A diesel Malibu would "fly" off the lots. Not to mention diesel Acadias, Outlooks and Enclaves.

Then the refining infrastructure in the US would shift to refine more diesel, and diesel prices would come down, not to mention the price of gasoline as it's demand falls.

[AMERICA 123]

Originally Posted by igor

I am not a hybrid person - and ICE is enough technology for me ....

what I am saying is that there is NO WAY the TSX will get 54mpg on EPA's test - and at the end of the day - that is all that matters.

You're probably - possibly correct about the EPA reported numbers - and that they matter a great deal. BUT thats not going to be the whole story - no matter what they end up at.

I have driven enough car to know that surpassing EPA in a real world situation does not happen. Sure you can sustain some impressive HWY mileage for say an hour - but by the time you have to fill up - you drop back to +-EPA or lower. At least I do.

Look, I'm just going to accept thats been your observation - diesels - and hybrids can be and usually are quite different from conventional ICEs - diesels go up and Honda/Toyota 'mileage' oriented hybrids stay flat or go down as far as large numbers of owners go - there are always exceptions to almost everything and thats in regards to all three.

The variance here between the three has much to do with the methods of calculation - more so than most seem aware of.


Diesels have and appear likely to continue to beat EPA numbers in the real world - that approx 18% ( for the 2008 revised method )- negative error for the diesels only is the real thing as reported - and thats using the 'best' new method available for the diesel .

I love diesels - as I said - however I will not buy one if I am looking to pay more at the pump than with a regular I4 or I5 car.

Well, to each his own.
Sure, 'cheaper' WOULD BE ALOT BETTER, but even what 'cheaper' means is up to the individual and ultimately if their version of cheaper has value or even matters at all.

I'm not going to punish my own wallet and seat of the pants just because this country accidentally or not, is making diesel less attractive - everyway it can.

Useful modifications are of value to some and for some the price difference is between 93.5 R+M/2 Premium or better - when available versus diesel.

[big swede]

Originally Posted by igor

I am not a hybrid person - and ICE is enough technology for me ....

what I am saying is that there is NO WAY the TSX will get 54mpg on EPA's test - and at the end of the day - that is all that matters.

I recently test drove the Ford Edge - I got 33mpg on a relaxed highway driving - but it was 55-60mpg relaxed and simply ideal MPG situation.

I have driven enough car to know that surpassing EPA in a real world situation does not happen. Sure you can sustain some impressive HWY mileage for say an hour - but by the time you have to fill up - you drop back to +-EPA or lower. At least I do.

I love diesels - as I said - however I will not buy one if I am looking to pay more at the pump than with a regular I4 or I5 car.

However - that - is bedsides my key point, which was that 54mpg EPA will NOT happen - and that is all I care about and all the buyers care about.

Igor

You're exactly right. You cannot just compare a diesel to a hybrid. Most people are going to compare a diesel to the other 4 cylinder model in the lineup and then see if the added costs of diesel (fuel, maintenance, initial cost) will be worth it during their cost of ownership. Right now you would have to be a pretty big diesel fan to be able to justify the price gap, especially with the knowledge that the gap will continue to widen over time since the emerging markets are almost strictly diesel thereby creating a continually greater demand for diesel.

Now if a manufacturer only sells a diesel and a V6 of a certain model then the diesel sales will take off which will hurt diesel fuel prices even more.

If diesel was $1.00 a gallon cheaper like it is in other parts of the world, yeah it’s a no brainer.

[377Z]

I wonder when it will be in showrooms.

Likewise for the Jetta diesel.

[jdsfrm]

Originally Posted by 377Z

I wonder when it will be in showrooms.

Likewise for the Jetta diesel.

HERNDON, Va.—Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced pricing for their eagerly anticipated Jetta TDI sedan and SportWagen starting at $21,990 and $23,590, respectively. Fuel efficiency, performance and convenience all come standard with the 50-state compliant Jetta sedan and SportWagen TDI, which meet the most stringent emissions standards in California and the world. Both models will be available this August.

While the Environmental Protection Agency estimates the Jetta TDI at an economical 29 mpg City and 40 mpg Highway, Volkswagen went a step further to show the true fuel economy of the Jetta TDI. Leading third-party certifier, AMCI, has tested the Jetta TDI and found it performed 24 percent better in real world conditions, achieving 38 mpg in the City and 44 mpg on the Highway

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publi...cle_2336.shtml

[1931Chevy]

I would love to own a diesel car but with diesel price I will have to stick with gas unless I can use biodiesel without damaging the warranty then maybe I can consider one

[377Z]

Originally Posted by jdsfrm

HERNDON, Va.—Volkswagen of America, Inc. today announced pricing for their eagerly anticipated Jetta TDI sedan and SportWagen starting at $21,990 and $23,590, respectively. Fuel efficiency, performance and convenience all come standard with the 50-state compliant Jetta sedan and SportWagen TDI, which meet the most stringent emissions standards in California and the world. Both models will be available this August.

While the Environmental Protection Agency estimates the Jetta TDI at an economical 29 mpg City and 40 mpg Highway, Volkswagen went a step further to show the true fuel economy of the Jetta TDI. Leading third-party certifier, AMCI, has tested the Jetta TDI and found it performed 24 percent better in real world conditions, achieving 38 mpg in the City and 44 mpg on the Highway

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publi...cle_2336.shtml

That is GREAT news, especially since I was expecting the SportWagen's price to end up around $26-27K for some reason. At $23,590, I'd still be willing to add some options of the SEL (hopefully everything won't be buried in some $giant$ pakage).

And I fully expect that it will exceed the EPA estimates, which seem to be warped for diesel passenger cars.

I just hope it's not too hard to get one; it seemed that the TDi's were scarce when they were available.

[Canyonaro]

I would be the first with cash in hand right now if it were availible. I owned a VW Passat (VR6), but with as bad as a situation I had with that piece of crud I still almost bought a Jetta TDI since I want a diesel really bad.

Originally Posted by New_Mexico_Sunset_on_Rt66

A diesel Malibu would "fly" off the lots.