GM needs SAAB more than Buick or Pontiac

[Firebird00]

You bring up several good points, but I just don't believe that closing down two of the most historic brands GM has would be a good idea. It would be Oldsmobile all over again. Pontiac just needs time and money (money that it has been deprived of unjustly) to regain its flame. It still is mind boggling to me why Saturn is getting so much attention money wise, while Pontiac is dragging its wounded self on w/ no aid. It should be the other way around.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by TAHOE LT

You can't kill Buick or Pontiac for Saab, because a lot of GM fans will not go to Saab like they do for Pontiac or Buick or Chevy.

You're right. They won't go to Saab.
But Buick can go to Cadillac and Pontiac can go to Chevy.
Just alter the design schema for Chevys and A Cadillac "Lacrosse" can be added to the lineup. Enclave can be added without interfering with SRX. And DTS can take over Lucerne.

[Xenon]

Really whats the essence of Buick? In my area , they are the basic choice for the retirement shuttle crowd.

[samkung]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Cadillac sold about 5,000 outside the US. You do the math.

OMG thats a little bit disappointed, thought they sold more than 5000 in China alone:P well if thats what Cadillac is doing now, guess GM has lots of work to do!!!!GO Cadillac, BTW is Cadillac coming downunder

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by samkung

OMG thats a little bit disappointed, thought they sold more than 5000 in China alone:P well if thats what Cadillac is doing now, guess GM has lots of work to do!!!!GO Cadillac, BTW is Cadillac coming downunder

Sales are up this year, but I wouldn't expect it to go past 10,000 units outside the US.
BLS was supposed to sell something like 25,000 units, but barely sold 2,000.

[dav305z]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

You're right. They won't go to Saab.
But Buick can go to Cadillac and Pontiac can go to Chevy.
Just alter the design schema for Chevys and A Cadillac "Lacrosse" can be added to the lineup. Enclave can be added without interfering with SRX. And DTS can take over Lucerne.

GM never recovered the share they lost by shutting down Oldsmobile.

You certainly make good points about Saab, and the fierceness of your argument proves that the brand has its fanatical followers.

However, I remain unconvinced that an individual investment in making Saab a truly powerful, successful world brand would pay off. You're the smart economist (I'm not being facitious in saying that), can you tell me why GM is better off developing a unique and competitive lineup for Saab as opposed to putting these dollars elsewhere? It seems that making a 9-5 and 9-3 that are truly Saabs and at the same time class leaders would be an enormous investment. It would also be painstaking. One of the benefits of Pontiac and Buick having totally lost their identities over the years is that GM can go ahead and make them into whatever they want them to be. They can make Pontiac Holden America, and few outside of High Performance Pontiac's readership will take offense. Importing the Holdens is cheap enough to the point that even the GTO project turned a profit.

On the other hand, if Saab produces a car with the ignition in the wrong place, loyalists raise hell. A Saab must be something very specific to the point that GM has not much flexibilty in how they would expand the brand. It could be done, but I'm not sure it can be done by GM, or if it should be.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by dav305z

GM never recovered the share they lost by shutting down Oldsmobile.

And GM didn't provide a path to another GM brand, nor did it take into account stand-alone Odls dealers, nor did it have any complementary products in adjacent brands.
B-P-G dealerships will essentially be the norm in the coming years. What's to stop GM from turning them into B-G dealers or P-G dealers?

Originally Posted by dav305z

However, I remain unconvinced that an individual investment in making Saab a truly powerful, successful world brand would pay off. You're the smart economist (I'm not being facitious in saying that), can you tell me why GM is better off developing a unique and competitive lineup for Saab as opposed to putting these dollars elsewhere? It seems that making a 9-5 and 9-3 that are truly Saabs and at the same time class leaders would be an enormous investment. It would also be painstaking. One of the benefits of Pontiac and Buick having totally lost their identities over the years is that GM can go ahead and make them into whatever they want them to be. They can make Pontiac Holden America, and few outside of High Performance Pontiac's readership will take offense. Importing the Holdens is cheap enough to the point that even the GTO project turned a profit.

Sometimes in business, it takes a risk. GM needs to be different. Is it fully economical to have Saab as a "stand alone" brand? Of course not. With Opel and Saturn merging, and Buick, Pontiac, and Holden eventually merging or sharing resources, GM will be realizing considerable savings in the next 5 years.
I'm not saying that Saab shoudl get its own platforms. I am saying that Saab can take the existing global architectures and make it their own, while adhering to the financial constraints to make them profitable. So, Saab can have a 9-3 sedan and convertible and sportcombi in 1 factory, instead of the 2 it requires today. Modular factories will aid in that.

Strengthening Saab also means strengthening GM's global presence. I am a firm believer in taking the competition to your competitor's doorsteps. That's what Japan did to us. Opel and Saab have a great chance at making a dent in Europe competing with VW, Skoda, and the German premium marques than Cadillac or Chevy does in gaining recognition in the short term. Also, GM can leverage Saab's distribution network, as it is the most global of brands right now.

I still believe there are a lot of untapped potential at Saab. Whether I hit the nail on the head or am way off, I don't know. I don't work for GM. I can only make an educated guess.

Originally Posted by dav305z

On the other hand, if Saab produces a car with the ignition in the wrong place, loyalists raise hell. A Saab must be something very specific to the point that GM has not much flexibilty in how they would expand the brand. It could be done, but I'm not sure it can be done by GM, or if it should be.

And if Saab incorporates the difference in product planning, there shouldn't be an issue.

[DanCBJMS1988]

^^I think GM tried selling Opels, Saabs, and Cadillacs in Japan, as well as Saturns and (via Suzuki) Chevrolets. Look at how they fared in Japan - they were diddly squat. They were considered to be "unpatriotic" purchases in Japan. Why purchase an Opel when you can get an Allion, an Avensis, an Accord, an Inspire, a Primera, or a Teana instead that were made locally?

[dav305z]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

I still believe there are a lot of untapped potential at Saab. Whether I hit the nail on the head or am way off, I don't know. I don't work for GM. I can only make an educated guess.

Fair enough.













(How do you like that - an internet argument with a resolution )

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by DanCBJMS1988

^^I think GM tried selling Opels, Saabs, and Cadillacs in Japan, as well as Saturns and (via Suzuki) Chevrolets. Look at how they fared in Japan - they were diddly squat. They were considered to be "unpatriotic" purchases in Japan. Why purchase an Opel when you can get an Allion, an Avensis, an Accord, an Inspire, a Primera, or a Teana instead that were made locally?

But look at the product they were selling at the time. Saturn established its own distriubtion network, and used the Saturn philosophy to sell its cars. It didn't pan out. It was treated as more of a culture shock to the Japanese, and the cars were subpar to the Japanese cars offered.

Saab is sold in Japan. Cadillac is sold in Japan (all except Escalade and SRX). Opel is not.

Current GM products have a better chance at succeeding in Japan. THough, Chevy does sell Trailblzer in Japan.

Just remember though, Mercedes, BMW, and Audi do very well in Japan -- much to the dismay of newly launched Lexus.

[63cat]

GM needs Buick and Saab, and I feel both brands should be sold together because they need each other.

Buick has outstanding reliability and quality. Saab has a history of poor quality. Buick helps Saab.

Saab has younger buyers. Buick's are getting younger, but are still older. Exposing Saab buyers to Buick now, might make them Buick customers as they age. Saab helps Buick.

If there is any need to cut a brand, make it Saab in the U-S. Saturn and Buick would pick up the slack and you'd save a ton of cash in importing the product.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by 63cat

Buick has outstanding reliability and quality. Saab has a history of poor quality. Buick helps Saab.

HIstory of poor quality? Why is that whenever I tell people "I drive a Saab," they ALWAYS say, "Really? Those cars last forever." Because they do!!
9-5 has the lowest defects among premium sports sedans. The 9-3, aside from the blip its first year, is also among the lowest.
Don't underestimate Saab quality.

I've had mine 6 years and 115,000 miles... and I"ve had 2 major problems. Not so bad, seeing as comparable mercs and Audis have 2 problems a YEAR.

Originally Posted by 63cat

If there is any need to cut a brand, make it Saab in the U-S. Saturn and Buick would pick up the slack and you'd save a ton of cash in importing the product.

Makes no sense.

[cfch3399]

Strictly speaking for a bean counter I assume only Chevy, GMC and perhaps Cadillac are needed. Everything else seems to be draining GM resources.
That said, there is a market for all 3. Buick should remain the car of choice for retirees or become GM's retro brand, Saab the quirky Euro brand. Pontiac is the brand that is least true to it's mission, it should become the performance division, period.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by cfch3399

Strictly speaking for a bean counter I assume only Chevy, GMC and perhaps Cadillac are needed. Everything else seems to be draining GM resources.
That said, there is a market for all 3. Buick should remain the car of choice for retirees or become GM's retro brand, Saab the quirky Euro brand. Pontiac is the brand that is least true to it's mission, it should become the performance division, period.

From strictly a beancounter's point of view?
All that would be needed are Chevrolet and Cadillac.

GMC, Hummer, Pontiac, Daewoo, Opel, and Saturn would fold into Chevrolet.
Buick and Saab would fold into Cadillac.

It's when you start getting into niches where everything becomes more complicated.

As it stands right now, Pontiac and GMC can technically be folded into Chevrolet. All they really sell are rebadged Chevy's in the first place. Denali would become a line at Chevy Trucks.
Opel and Saturn have a good symbiotic relationship going.
Buick can fold into Cadillac.
And Saab is independent.

But the world ain't perfect. ANd it's easier on paper than in practice.

[63cat]

Everybody has a reliability story about their favorite brand, but overall Saab reliability has been poor.

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...asp?ID=2006133


http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/new...asp?ID=2005089