GM needs SAAB more than Buick or Pontiac

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by throwback

I hear you, I do like what I have seen from spy shots of the new 9-5. I hope they really go all out on the interior. I have no doubt it will be a good driver. I had not been a fan of front drive cars, but my 9-3 handles very well, and is well balanced for a front driver.

What spyshots of the 9-5????

[uboys]

Saab is so obviously the anti-Volvo. Why are people twisting in the wind about it?

[throwback]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

What spyshots of the 9-5????

From the Car magazine website, not really a picture more of a rendering. When it comes to European cars however their sources are usually very good.

[jc7222]

Originally Posted by throwback

I have always thought Audi should be SAAB's target. I have driven several Audi's and they are refined, technically excellent cars. Their designs, interior and exterior are exceptionally well done with none of the "old world" look of a Jaguar for example.

I couldn't agree more. When I think of Audi and Saab, I thinkof vehicles that are the anti-mainstream. I always viewed MBs as overpriced BMWs. And now I view BMW as overpriced period. When last I was looking for a vehicle, I wanted something that was good but, not commonplace. It must have a manual tranny or it is not worth it for me.
I settled on 02 Audi A6 and 02 Saab 9-5 Aero. I bought the Saab! Why? It looks better to me; the stereo sounds much better than the Bose in the Audi. The seats in the Saab are the best in the industry. The Saab did not require premium gas. I could get better mileage from a tank of gas. I could beat all A6s except the A6 2.7 but that would cost much more than the Saab.
I will say as a previous Audi owner the AWD and Audi service was almost a deal breaker for me. Saab must bring AWD as a option. And the dealership must come up to higher standard (please tell the Saab dealers that they are selling a luxury vehicle not a Pontiac or Chevy).

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by throwback

From the Car magazine website, not really a picture more of a rendering. When it comes to European cars however their sources are usually very good.

OK. Gotcha.
I found those rendering to be very close to the initial sketches of the 9-5, 3-4 years ago.
I wonder just how close they really are?
I'm betting we'll find out in Geneva.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by uboys

Saab is so obviously the anti-Volvo. Why are people twisting in the wind about it?

Saab and Volvo have always been joined at the hip. Both have stellar reputations for safety. Both are Swedish. But that's pretty much where the similarities stop.
Volvo has been a family car with a luxury slant.
Saab has always been about the driving experience and sport.

But they remain joined at the hip.

Saab has the ability to go after Audi, if GM would just let them do it. Leave Mercedes to Cadillac.

[throwback]

Originally Posted by jc7222

I couldn't agree more. When I think of Audi and Saab, I thinkof vehicles that are the anti-mainstream. I always viewed MBs as overpriced BMWs. And now I view BMW as overpriced period. When last I was looking for a vehicle, I wanted something that was good but, not commonplace. It must have a manual tranny or it is not worth it for me.
I settled on 02 Audi A6 and 02 Saab 9-5 Aero. I bought the Saab! Why? It looks better to me; the stereo sounds much better than the Bose in the Audi. The seats in the Saab are the best in the industry. The Saab did not require premium gas. I could get better mileage from a tank of gas. I could beat all A6s except the A6 2.7 but that would cost much more than the Saab.
I will say as a previous Audi owner the AWD and Audi service was almost a deal breaker for me. Saab must bring AWD as a option. And the dealership must come up to higher standard (please tell the Saab dealers that they are selling a luxury vehicle not a Pontiac or Chevy).

We are on the same page. My SAAB service area is horrible. Thankfully I have not had any issues except for the radio, which is terrible. I have a 9-3 Linear with the base radio. The people are nice but the atmosphere is more Kia than Audi. The showroom is at a different location and that is nicely done, but service is what keeps customers coming back.

[mgescuro]

Hmmm... The service at my Saab dealership rivals Saturn!!!
They are extremely helpful and will do anything to help you out. I remember driving my car in for service. It was 7:30am and it was almost 90F outside already, and there was a line of 7 cars. THey told us to have a seat in the A/C showroom while they processed people. Gave us chilled bottles of water if we wanted.

I had taken my car in multiple times for that stupid Neutral Safety Switch problem, and they had kept it for 10 days. Everyday they'd call me to see if I had wanted to loaner car -- no charge. I said I was using my other car and didn't need one.

I have some of the best service with them.

[DuSpinnst]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Hmmm... The service at my Saab dealership rivals Saturn!!!
They are extremely helpful and will do anything to help you out. I remember driving my car in for service. It was 7:30am and it was almost 90F outside already, and there was a line of 7 cars. THey told us to have a seat in the A/C showroom while they processed people. Gave us chilled bottles of water if we wanted.

I had taken my car in multiple times for that stupid Neutral Safety Switch problem, and they had kept it for 10 days. Everyday they'd call me to see if I had wanted to loaner car -- no charge. I said I was using my other car and didn't need one.

I have some of the best service with them.

I agree, when I picked up my Saab I met the Service Manager and got a tour of the Service Department. All new customers get this kind of service.

I ordered my car in July, my sales person kept me informed of all of my cars changes. When I decided to order the wheels, they said they could install them and do any customizations to the car BEFORE I even picked it up. Talk about service!

The Saab Dealer has been a JOY to deal with.

Regarding Saab being the Global Brand, of the 3 Global Brand's Saab is NUMBER 1 as it has been around longer than 5 years where the others have not (Cadillac had limited imports prior to the CTS outside of the US/Canada)

[dav305z]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

My point is Pontiac is not a global brand. And it can barely stand on its own in the NA market. It has been relegated selling rebadged CHevys. Some "performance" brand, huh?

But as a global company, GM should be able to easily provide it the performance from vehicles like Holdens. Who cares if they rebadge the Aussie cars - no one in the U.S. will be driving Commodores.

So killing off Pontiac should be easier then.

No, because of the dealers. Pontiacs dealer network is gigantic. Combining BPG into one unit makes it easier for GM to axe one of them in the future, but it would still be an enormous undertaking.

Saab has relatively few dealers in the U.S. Even if you count the world dealers, I'd doubt that they come match Pontiacs network.

[TO my knowledge, Saab has had no part in Cobalt. THe Solstice turbo is a Saab effort, as well as the DI system in the engine.[/quote]
The 2.0L Ecotec is based heavily on Saabs 2.0 Turbo.

Saabs drive better because its mechanicals are better. Take a 9-3 and an Aura side by side. Aside from 2" more legroom in the rear, the 9-3 has better numbers across the board. Including a 2" tighter turning radius, and better handling, and better safety.

What other numbers? Two inches in turning radius doesn't do it for me. The inclusion of a manual is certainly nice, but in terms of driving experience I found the Aura far superior. It had a more planted feel and yet responded to driver input better. It was a far more polished, buttoned down car. Mind you, I'm not taking anything away from the 9-3 - it is certainly a great car. However, it doesn't seem to offer anything that the Aura does not, and carries a higher price tag. I think there will eventually be an overlap in whom these brands attract.

Try that again. Aura is actually more American than European. THey share the sheetmetal. That's about it. It's not superior to 9-3 in any respect. The next-gen Aura will be the AMerican counterpart to Vectra. Remember, there are still 5 versions of Epsilon, with mechanicals that aren't interchangeable -- 2 Saab, 1 Opel, 1 Alfa, 1 American.

I read up some more, and it appears you are right, although most articles make ambiguous references to the car being a Vectra at heart. I stand corrected. Still, I ask what a 9-3 offers that an Aura does not. More pointedly, what does Saab offer that a revamped Saturn will not?

A quick look at Caddy's European websites shows availability of 6 models in 27 different countries.
Saab sells 2 models (5 if you count conv and sportcombi) in 32 different countries.
Saab sells about 140,000 globally annually. 45,000 or so is in teh US. Saab sells in 54 different countries worldwide. Cadillac sold about 5,000 outside the US. You do the math.
GM doesn't need to build Saab into it's 3rd global brand. It already IS a global brand!

And Pontiac sold 340,000 U.S. vehicles through October this year. It's a bad year. Cadillac has sold 120,000 in the U.S. so far this year. Again, Saab may have a global presence, but that's very different from saying that they are a global force that really contributes to GM's global strategy. In terms of global sales, Saab is like that Risk player who has a ton of territories but only one infantryman on each one.
Cadillac's current portfolio isn't exactly global material, but they have new product on the way. If the new CTS, the revamped STS, and other products can compete with the foriegn lux brands (as they'd better), then it stands to reason that GM could, no, must sell those cars against the same competition in Europe.

9-7X is one of the more effective placeholders. I still have my doubts about it the damned car. But everytime I drive it, sit in one, or see one, it really is somethign different. And sales numbers prove it. 9-7X is selling, and it's demanded in Europe, which I completely do not understand.

That is interesting. I still wonder, would that investment in the new interior for Saab have returned more if it had been put into improvements in the Trailblazer? The Trailblazer SS certainly offers a whole lot more of a driving experience.

Furthermore, with a lineup of of 2 cars -- 5 is u count variations -- it is a profitable brand.
There is a potential at Saab at is unrealized and untapped. It has the potential of becoming GM's Audi -- if GM would just allow it to.

How so? I'm pretty sure the brand has never had a profitable year under GM's tenure.

Sure, there is plenty of potential. In fact, any brand has potential given the resources and dedication. However, GM is in a situation where they're sweating heavily just trying to get product to Chevy and its other mainstream brands. Do they really have the resources, the dedication to do Saab the way it would need to be done in order to succeed. And even if they did, would this investment return the same sales and profit that an equal investment in other brands would? I just don't think so.

[DuSpinnst]

Drive an Aura XR, and then drive a 9-3 Aero. If you think the Aura has better driving dynamics and handling then your opinion is officially void when it comes to that subject.

The Aura XR, while handling quite well, is a boat next to the 9-3 Aero.

BTW, Saab IS PROFITABLE. If you look at all global sales, which are the ones that matter anyway.

[firebird1324]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Pontiac will do well if they take a page out of Opel/Saturn and become the US version of Holden.

I agree with THAT. GM needs to utilize their aussie products in the US. Holden has some very attractive and sporty cars, and we got a taste of them with the GTO. I happen to think that the Aussie GTO was a great car, looked great on paper and in person. So we see that the american designers can incoorperate Pontiac design with holden products and turn out a crisp design...I want to see a RWD Bonneville/G8, and a FWD Grand Prix. Leave the G6 on the Epsilon platform and ditch the "Pursuit" for something else aussie. Pontiac has great potential, and already has a good start with the Solstice. I just want GM to see that they can do wonders with Pontiac...and I want to see my beloved brand make a triumphant return.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by dav305z

But as a global company, GM should be able to easily provide it the performance from vehicles like Holdens. Who cares if they rebadge the Aussie cars - no one in the U.S. will be driving Commodores.

Sure. I got no problems with rebadged Holdens or Opels in the US as Buicks, Pontiacs, or Saturns.

Originally Posted by dav305z

No, because of the dealers. Pontiacs dealer network is gigantic. Combining BPG into one unit makes it easier for GM to axe one of them in the future, but it would still be an enormous undertaking.

By combining the dealership network, it makes it simpler to kill off a brand, as there are 2 other brands supporting the dealership network.

Originally Posted by dav305z

Saab has relatively few dealers in the U.S. Even if you count the world dealers, I'd doubt that they come match Pontiacs network.

I have no numbers to support that. But yeah, I'd assume Saab's dealer network is smaller.

Originally Posted by dav305z

What other numbers? Two inches in turning radius doesn't do it for me. The inclusion of a manual is certainly nice, but in terms of driving experience I found the Aura far superior. It had a more planted feel and yet responded to driver input better. It was a far more polished, buttoned down car. Mind you, I'm not taking anything away from the 9-3 - it is certainly a great car. However, it doesn't seem to offer anything that the Aura does not, and carries a higher price tag. I think there will eventually be an overlap in whom these brands attract.

Sorry. No 2 inches... 2 feet tighter turning radius.
Aura is superior?? HAHAHAHHA You need to try that again. A 9-3 Aero and an Aura XR will have different driving dynamics. THe 9-3 rides lower, and has the Re-Axs system. It's smaller but is the same weight. It's going to be more planted and easier to throw around. And Re-Axs cuts down on understeer.
Aura XR is a solid drive. No doubt. Heads and shoulders over my G6. But if you think it's better than 9-3? Sorry.

Originally Posted by dav305z

I read up some more, and it appears you are right, although most articles make ambiguous references to the car being a Vectra at heart. I stand corrected. Still, I ask what a 9-3 offers that an Aura does not. More pointedly, what does Saab offer that a revamped Saturn will not?

Again. There are 5 Epsilons, 2 of which are Saab. Both of which are 5-star safety ranked. The safety systems on the 9-3 alone are superior to Aura -- or any other Epsilon for that matter. This includes anti-submarining seats, active head restraints, and the multi-stage airbags. Plus better rear cup holders, rear armrest, rear fog lamps, heat reflective glass. And better mpg.
Don't get me wrong. I"m bugged by the fact that Vectra and Aura aren't more closely related. I guess we have to wait 4-5 years before they are fully related.

Originally Posted by dav305z

And Pontiac sold 340,000 U.S. vehicles through October this year. It's a bad year. Cadillac has sold 120,000 in the U.S. so far this year. Again, Saab may have a global presence, but that's very different from saying that they are a global force that really contributes to GM's global strategy. In terms of global sales, Saab is like that Risk player who has a ton of territories but only one infantryman on each one.
Cadillac's current portfolio isn't exactly global material, but they have new product on the way. If the new CTS, the revamped STS, and other products can compete with the foriegn lux brands (as they'd better), then it stands to reason that GM could, no, must sell those cars against the same competition in Europe.

I didn't say Saab is a global force. I never have. They sell abotu 100,000 outside the US. Which is far more than Cadillac will sell in the next decade at least.
Saab has a global portfolio now. Cadillac is still a generation away from becoming global.... and that's not even a guarantee, as the new CTS threw a wrench in the whole product positioning at Caddy.
Even if Cadillac manages to be competitive with the Europeans, it's still regarded as American. Cadillac is facing an uphill battle with its negative perception. Saab on the other hand doesn't face that. Saab is recognized as European and therefore part of the "home team." A proper marketing campaign and competitive products will solidifiy Saab's presence while Cadillac works on its perception. Caddy is decades away from breaking through the perception barrier. Saab is there already. Saab is profitable now. Give Saab a 9-1 and compete with C30 and A3 and let it run!!

Originally Posted by dav305z

That is interesting. I still wonder, would that investment in the new interior for Saab have returned more if it had been put into improvements in the Trailblazer? The Trailblazer SS certainly offers a whole lot more of a driving experience.

Trailblazer SS has the same underpinnings as the 9-7X with a better engine. SS wouldn't have happened without the 9-7X improvements.

Originally Posted by dav305z

How so? I'm pretty sure the brand has never had a profitable year under GM's tenure.

There were profitable in the late 90's for a year. THey broke even 2 years ago. And registered a profit last year. And they are ahead of projections this year, supported by 9-3 Sportcombi and 9-7X sales and 9-5 BioPower.

Originally Posted by dav305z

And even if they did, would this investment return the same sales and profit that an equal investment in other brands would? I just don't think so.

I guess it depends on how you measure ROI.

[Hitman1970]

My first GM purchase is a Buick. I am a 35 Year old male and if the quality of my LaCrosse holds up over the next few years this will be my brand from now on. Right now I could not see myself driving any other GM line. So, no Buick no me. I think GM has learned this from all the Oldsmobile customers they no longer have. I certainly would never buy a mueslix powered "Snob" either.

[TahoeMikeZ71]

You can't kill Buick or Pontiac for Saab, because a lot of GM fans will not go to Saab like they do for Pontiac or Buick or Chevy.