GM needs SAAB more than Buick or Pontiac

[throwback]

With GMI's Saab proposal out, I would like to suggest that SAAB is a more valuable brand to GM than either Buick or Pontiac. I am a 9-3 owner (my first SAAB), although this is not why I think SAAB is more important. Here is my position. 1. SAAB is (with Chevy) GM's only world wide brand.
2. SAAB is a better complement to Cadillac than either of the other two. 3. There are no other cars at the other 2 brands that could not be moved/taken up by other brands. The first point is self explanatory. The 2nd point, buyers looking at SAAB are unlikely to consider any other GM brand. Jay Spenchian has made this point repeatedly. This allows GM to attract a premium customer they normally would not, and possibly introduce them to other brands. My 3rd point, Buick has 2 significant models, Lucerne and the upcoming Enclave. Redesign the Lucerne front end and sell it as a flagship FWD Chevy. The next Impala will be the RWD flagship. This allows Chevy to offer 2 full size cars. The Enclave can be redsigned ala GMI's 9-6X and sold as a SAAB. Pontiac also has 2 significant cars, Solstice and G6. The Solstice can be redesigned as a Chevy. The new Malibu can fill the G6's spot with a coupe and convertible models. The Vibe, if GM wanted to keep it, could easily be sold under the Saturn brand. I am not suggesting that GM dump Buick or Pontiac, however I am suggesting if it ever came to that, of the 3 brands SAAB is the most improtant. Comments?

[mgescuro]

I agree somewhat.

Currently, Saab is GM's only full worldwide brand. Chevy and Cadillac will eventually get there, but not without pulling some teeth, and perhaps leveraging Saab's international presence.
The issue for Saab remains its reputation of "Quirky vehicles" and its limited dealership network, which is hindered by lack of product.

Once Saab has 4-5 fleshed out lines, the dealership network will grow, and sales will drastically improve.

Buick is important to GM for one reason -- China.
In China, Buick is better than Gold. What GM needs to do is fight tooth and nail to maintain that image in China. This means bringing Enclave to China before Lexus can launch the RX or LX or GX. ANd it means maintaining competitive and stylish vehicles. ANd if it means bringing down the price, sell these vehicles in the US. THey're a heck of a lot better than US Buicks.

Pontiac will do well if they take a page out of Opel/Saturn and become the US version of Holden.

[DanCBJMS1988]

Well, here's an interesting idea that I just realized last night. You know how the founder of Buick was Scottish, right? Well if Scotland ever became an independent country again, would it make sense for GM to replace the Vauxhall name with Buick and import VE/WM for Scotland through the Buick chain? I'd think so.

[throwback]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

I agree somewhat.

Currently, Saab is GM's only full worldwide brand. Chevy and Cadillac will eventually get there, but not without pulling some teeth, and perhaps leveraging Saab's international presence.
The issue for Saab remains its reputation of "Quirky vehicles" and its limited dealership network, which is hindered by lack of product.

Once Saab has 4-5 fleshed out lines, the dealership network will grow, and sales will drastically improve.

Buick is important to GM for one reason -- China.
In China, Buick is better than Gold. What GM needs to do is fight tooth and nail to maintain that image in China. This means bringing Enclave to China before Lexus can launch the RX or LX or GX. ANd it means maintaining competitive and stylish vehicles. ANd if it means bringing down the price, sell these vehicles in the US. THey're a heck of a lot better than US Buicks.

Pontiac will do well if they take a page out of Opel/Saturn and become the US version of Holden.

I agree completely about China. Buick is needed in China more than in the USA. I can see Buick one day being a Chinese only brand, similar to Holden and Vauxhall.

[uboys]

Originally Posted by throwback

With GMI's Saab proposal out, I would like to suggest that SAAB is a more valuable brand to GM than either Buick or Pontiac. I am a 9-3 owner (my first SAAB), although this is not why I think SAAB is more important. Here is my position. 1. SAAB is (with Chevy) GM's only world wide brand.
2. SAAB is a better complement to Cadillac than either of the other two. 3. There are no other cars at the other 2 brands that could not be moved/taken up by other brands. The first point is self explanatory. The 2nd point, buyers looking at SAAB are unlikely to consider any other GM brand. Jay Spenchian has made this point repeatedly. This allows GM to attract a premium customer they normally would not, and possibly introduce them to other brands. My 3rd point, Buick has 2 significant models, Lucerne and the upcoming Enclave. Redesign the Lucerne front end and sell it as a flagship FWD Chevy. The next Impala will be the RWD flagship. This allows Chevy to offer 2 full size cars. The Enclave can be redsigned ala GMI's 9-6X and sold as a SAAB. Pontiac also has 2 significant cars, Solstice and G6. The Solstice can be redesigned as a Chevy. The new Malibu can fill the G6's spot with a coupe and convertible models. The Vibe, if GM wanted to keep it, could easily be sold under the Saturn brand. I am not suggesting that GM dump Buick or Pontiac, however I am suggesting if it ever came to that, of the 3 brands SAAB is the most improtant. Comments?

Why, oh why are we still fighting each other???
TOYOTA IS THE ENEMY!!!
All brands are important--they just have to find their niches and market effectively!

[throwback]

Originally Posted by uboys

Why, oh why are we still fighting each other???
TOYOTA IS THE ENEMY!!!
All brands are important--they just have to find their niches and market effectively!

Unfortunately, when money is tight, and hard decisions need to be made. GM has starved several brands over the years due to tight funds. I want GM to survive for all of the obvious reasons. My purpose was simply to generate some discussion around what I think GM needs to think about to survive. I hope all the GM brands survive, but the competition is fierce and survival will go to the fitest.

[dav305z]

I think General Motors has little need for a global brand like Saab precisely because it is now a global company. Why spend astronomical sums on marketing, building dealer networks, and filling out a portfolio for Saab when GM can simply take one globally designed car and sell it through well-established regional brands? Example: GM could have spent billions trying to develop Deawoo into a household name in the U.S. Instead, they slapped a Chevy badge on its subcompact and "tadaa," we have a segment leader. Same with the Opel/Saturn tie up. The idea of needing a globally recognized brand overates the importance of a brand in the global scheme of things.

Sure, Saab is competing globally, but is it close to being competitive in any individual market? Does anyone really think Saab is anywhere near becoming relevant on a global scale? Even if GM could build Saab into someting competitive, would they ever make a profit on their investment? Buick/Pontiac haver more U.S. brand recognition than Saab and a bigger dealer network than the Swedish brand could imagine. For a low investment, GM could take Holden models and give them to both brands - ie Buick Statesman, Pontiac Commodores (but with American names). Just like that you'd combine the product power of Australia with the 70 years of brand equity Buick/Pontiac have in the United States.

In the global market, GM needs to mercelessly look at its varying operations and ask, "How do they help us make money?" With Saturn drawing entry-level import intenders, who needs Saab in the United States? The same has been true for decades in Europe, where Opel does everything Saab intends to. One could say that Saab offers more luxury than either brand, but that only would mean they've never test-driven the 9-3 and Aura back to back. Saab is not even competing well at the entry-lux, how would GM make a true luxury contender? In that segment, it seems GM would be better off putting its eggs in the Cadillac basket. Cadillac will soon have globally competive luxury vehicles. They also have global recognition -Elvis anyone? The only thing they won't have are dealers, but wait, why not just sell them at friendly European Saab dealerships?

What Saab really does have to offer is engineering. Saab engineers understand 4-cylinder engines and turbochargers, both alien concepts in Detroit.

The solution here, is to bring Saab engineers more fully into the fold, and then sell the Saab name.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by dav305z

I think General Motors has little need for a global brand like Saab precisely because it is now a global company. Why spend the money on marketing and building dealer networks, and filling out a portfolio for Saabs when GM can simply take one globally designed car and sell it under regional brands that are already well established in their local markets? Example: GM could have spent billions trying to develope Deawoo into a household name in the U.S. Instead, they slapped a Chevy badge on its subcompact and "tadaa," we have a segment leader. Same with the Opel/Saturn tie up. The idea of needing a globally recognized brand overates the importance of a brand in the global scheme of things.

Sure, Saab is competing globally, but is it close to being competitive in any individual market? Buick/Pontiac has more U.S. brand recognition than Saab and a bigger dealer network than the Swedish brand could imagine. For a low investment, GM could take Holden models and give them to both brands - ie Buick Statesman, Pontiac Commodores (but with American names) - and just like that you'd combine the product power of Australia with the 70 years of brand equity Buick/Pontiac have in the United States.

In the global market, GM needs to mercelessly look at its varying operations and ask, "How do they help us make money?" With Saturn drawing entry-level import intenders, who needs Saab in the United States? The same has been true for decades in Europe, where Opel does everything Saab intends to. One could say that Saab offers more luxury than either brand, but that only would mean they've never test-drive the 9-3 and Aura back to back. Saab is not even competing well at the entry-lux, how would GM make a true luxury contender? In that segment, it seems GM would be better off putting its eggs in the Cadillac basket. Cadillac will soon have globally competive luxury vehicles. They also have global recognition -Elvis anyone? The only thing they won't have are dealers, but wait, why not just sell them at friendly European Saab dealerships?

What Saab really does have to offer is engineering. Saab engineers understand 4-cylinder engines and turbochargers, both alien concepts in Detroit.

The solution here, is to bring Saab engineers more fully into the fold, and then sell the Saab name.

Problem with that is that there isn't one single car in GM's global portfolio that has the driving competence of a Saab. All other Epsilons drive like ****************. Look what Saab did to the 9-7X.
GM has tunnel vision. They build cars to fit a financial model. They don't build cars to build cars. Saab builds cars to build cars, and even though they are now constrained to a financial model, they can do it, because they command a higher price.

Neither Chevy, Cadillac, Holden, or Opel have the global reach that Saab has.

What you're asking for is a global lineup with no identity and nothing special. You're asking for GM to become Toyota.

GM won't get anything for the Saab name. And frankly, it's a recognized name worldwide. Go try and sell a POntiac outside the US. I'll wait.

Pontiac should become Holden, as Saturn has become Opel. BUick shoudl borrow from Holden.
Chevrolet and Cadillac are the global pillars for GM. And Saab is the premium Euro influence globally for GM. American cars don't sell outside the US for a variety of reasons. And Saab outsells Cadillac outside the NA market nearly 6-1.

[throwback]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Problem with that is that there isn't one single car in GM's global portfolio that has the driving competence of a Saab. All other Epsilons drive like ****************. Look what Saab did to the 9-7X.
GM has tunnel vision. They build cars to fit a financial model. They don't build cars to build cars. Saab builds cars to build cars, and even though they are now constrained to a financial model, they can do it, because they command a higher price.

Neither Chevy, Cadillac, Holden, or Opel have the global reach that Saab has.

What you're asking for is a global lineup with no identity and nothing special. You're asking for GM to become Toyota.

GM won't get anything for the Saab name. And frankly, it's a recognized name worldwide. Go try and sell a POntiac outside the US. I'll wait.

Pontiac should become Holden, as Saturn has become Opel. BUick shoudl borrow from Holden.
Chevrolet and Cadillac are the global pillars for GM. And Saab is the premium Euro influence globally for GM. American cars don't sell outside the US for a variety of reasons. And Saab outsells Cadillac outside the NA market nearly 6-1.

Good points, I think GM needs to more tightly focus Pontiac (rear drive performance, 3 models in my mind. GTO, Grand Prix, Bonneville) and Buick (not sure where they go from here) in order to make them more viable in the USA. Pontiac used to be about performance, at least from '59 to about the '74. Now I don't know what they stand for, although I like the G6.

[LeSabre]

Originally Posted by throwback

With GMI's Saab proposal out, I would like to suggest that SAAB is a more valuable brand to GM than either Buick or Pontiac. I am a 9-3 owner (my first SAAB), although this is not why I think SAAB is more important. Here is my position. 1. SAAB is (with Chevy) GM's only world wide brand.
2. SAAB is a better complement to Cadillac than either of the other two. 3. There are no other cars at the other 2 brands that could not be moved/taken up by other brands. The first point is self explanatory. The 2nd point, buyers looking at SAAB are unlikely to consider any other GM brand. Jay Spenchian has made this point repeatedly. This allows GM to attract a premium customer they normally would not, and possibly introduce them to other brands. My 3rd point, Buick has 2 significant models, Lucerne and the upcoming Enclave. Redesign the Lucerne front end and sell it as a flagship FWD Chevy. The next Impala will be the RWD flagship. This allows Chevy to offer 2 full size cars. The Enclave can be redsigned ala GMI's 9-6X and sold as a SAAB. Pontiac also has 2 significant cars, Solstice and G6. The Solstice can be redesigned as a Chevy. The new Malibu can fill the G6's spot with a coupe and convertible models. The Vibe, if GM wanted to keep it, could easily be sold under the Saturn brand. I am not suggesting that GM dump Buick or Pontiac, however I am suggesting if it ever came to that, of the 3 brands SAAB is the most improtant. Comments?

If GM were to dump Buick & Pontiac. GM would again(Can ya say "Oldsmobile") be alienating potential customers that would never buy a Chevy, Saturn & maybe couldn't afford a Cadillac or Saab.

In a way, the new Saturn(& Vauxhall) via Opel is a global brand. Since Opel's are sold in England as Vauxhalls' & the rest of Europe & Australia/New Zealand & mostly everywhere else as Opels' w/the exception of the Daewoo GX2 which of course is the Saturn Sky/Opel GT.

Right now, GM's global brands are:

Opel(Saturn/Vauxhall)
Saab
Chevrolet.
Cadillac is starting to become a global brand.


Pontiac & Buick, although they are not global brands, they are international brand & still very important to GM's North American market(Canada, USA & Mexico). Buick is also making its own way as a global brand as well. Since Buicks' are also sold in China as most of us know.

Saab, I think should be on its own for the most part. In design of its exteriors & Interiors as well as its own drivetrains. The Saab engineers should be allowed to do their magic!

Chevy should not have a Kappa(Solstice) car. The brand has enough cars/vehicles in its line up. A Kappa isn't needed.

I can kind of see the Solstice/Sky being a one off design(generically speaking). But whether there will be a 2nd gen Solstice/Sky, remains to be seen.

[dav305z]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

Problem with that is that there isn't one single car in GM's global portfolio that has the driving competence of a Saab. All other Epsilons drive like ****************. Look what Saab did to the 9-7X.
GM has tunnel vision. They build cars to fit a financial model. They don't build cars to build cars. Saab builds cars to build cars, and even though they are now constrained to a financial model, they can do it, because they command a higher price.

Neither Chevy, Cadillac, Holden, or Opel have the global reach that Saab has.

What you're asking for is a global lineup with no identity and nothing special. You're asking for GM to become Toyota.

GM won't get anything for the Saab name. And frankly, it's a recognized name worldwide. Go try and sell a POntiac outside the US. I'll wait.

Pontiac should become Holden, as Saturn has become Opel. BUick shoudl borrow from Holden.
Chevrolet and Cadillac are the global pillars for GM. And Saab is the premium Euro influence globally for GM. American cars don't sell outside the US for a variety of reasons. And Saab outsells Cadillac outside the NA market nearly 6-1.

But why do you need to sell a Pontiac outside of the United States? Honda can't sell Acura outside of the United States, should they close it?

You are still thinking about Saab, Pontiac, etc as if they were divisions. They are not, and have not been in a long long time. Pontiac has not been a division since about 1980, when it started using GM corporate engines. Pontiac and Saab are little badges, a dealer network, and a slogan, nothing more.

If Saab engineers make better driving cars, than they need to be applying these skills company-wide. I would argue that they already have - look at the fwd handling prowess of the Cobalt SS, and its S/C'd 4-banger. Same for the Solstice's 2.8L turbo.

And again, look at the Saturn Aura. This is a world car. It starts with a nice, Saab designed fwd platform, adds German stability and road isolation, and tops it off with a sweet American designed V-6. The result is a car far superior to both the Swedish 9-3 and the American G6.

That, in the scheme of things, is what Saab offers. As a brand, it really is not that strong. It's vaunted European presence, I feel, is a paper tiger. It sells six times more than Caddy? What does Cadillac offer there, two models in a couple of premium dealers?

I think Saab is a neat brand, but I just don't see what about it would compel GM to build it into its third global brand. You point out the 9-7x. Do you think that car is really competitive in its class?

You say that the global brand strategy will result in a bland GM. I think it's quite the opposite. By trying to expand the wrong brands into full line global forces, GM has continually forced square pegs into circle holes, and has wasted a lot of money doing it. I really don't think a company with the size and breadth of GM should rest its global premium presence on the shoulders of a quirky company that has never turned them a profit.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by dav305z

But why do you need to sell a Pontiac outside of the United States? Honda can't sell Acura outside of the United States, should they close it?

My point is Pontiac is not a global brand. And it can barely stand on its own in the NA market. It has been relegated selling rebadged CHevys. Some "performance" brand, huh?

Originally Posted by dav305z

You are still thinking about Saab, Pontiac, etc as if they were divisions. They are not, and have not been in a long long time. Pontiac has not been a division since about 1980, when it started using GM corporate engines. Pontiac and Saab are little badges, a dealer network, and a slogan, nothing more.

So killing off Pontiac should be easier then.

Originally Posted by dav305z

If Saab engineers make better driving cars, than they need to be applying these skills company-wide. I would argue that they already have - look at the fwd handling prowess of the Cobalt SS, and its S/C'd 4-banger. Same for the Solstice's 2.8L turbo.

TO my knowledge, Saab has had no part in Cobalt. THe Solstice turbo is a Saab effort, as well as the DI system in the engine.
Saabs drive better because its mechanicals are better. Take a 9-3 and an Aura side by side. Aside from 2" more legroom in the rear, the 9-3 has better numbers across the board. Including a 2" tighter turning radius, and better handling, and better safety.

Originally Posted by dav305z

And again, look at the Saturn Aura. This is a world car. It starts with a nice, Saab designed fwd platform, adds German stability and road isolation, and tops it off with a sweet American designed V-6. The result is a car far superior to both the Swedish 9-3 and the American G6.

Try that again. Aura is actually more American than European. THey share the sheetmetal. That's about it. It's not superior to 9-3 in any respect. The next-gen Aura will be the AMerican counterpart to Vectra. Remember, there are still 5 versions of Epsilon, with mechanicals that aren't interchangeable -- 2 Saab, 1 Opel, 1 Alfa, 1 American.

Originally Posted by dav305z

That, in the scheme of things, is what Saab offers. As a brand, it really is not that strong. It's vaunted European presence, I feel, is a paper tiger. It sells six times more than Caddy? What does Cadillac offer there, two models in a couple of premium dealers?

A quick look at Caddy's European websites shows availability of 6 models in 27 different countries.
Saab sells 2 models (5 if you count conv and sportcombi) in 32 different countries.
Saab sells about 140,000 globally annually. 45,000 or so is in teh US. Saab sells in 54 different countries worldwide. Cadillac sold about 5,000 outside the US. You do the math.

Originally Posted by dav305z

I think Saab is a neat brand, but I just don't see what about it would compel GM to build it into its third global brand. You point out the 9-7x. Do you think that car is really competitive in its class?

You say that the global brand strategy will result in a bland GM. I think it's quite the opposite. By trying to expand the wrong brands into full line global forces, GM has continually forced square pegs into circle holes, and has wasted a lot of money doing it. I really don't think a company with the size and breadth of GM should rest its global premium presence on the shoulders of a quirky company that has never turned them a profit.

GM doesn't need to build Saab into it's 3rd global brand. It already IS a global brand!
9-7X is one of the more effective placeholders. I still have my doubts about it the damned car. But everytime I drive it, sit in one, or see one, it really is somethign different. And sales numbers prove it. 9-7X is selling, and it's demanded in Europe, which I completely do not understand.

Furthermore, with a lineup of of 2 cars -- 5 is u count variations -- it is a profitable brand.

There is a potential at Saab at is unrealized and untapped. It has the potential of becoming GM's Audi -- if GM would just allow it to.

[throwback]

I have always thought Audi should be SAAB's target. I have driven several Audi's and they are refined, technically excellent cars. Their designs, interior and exterior are exceptionally well done with none of the "old world" look of a Jaguar for example.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by throwback

I have always thought Audi should be SAAB's target. I have driven several Audi's and they are refined, technically excellent cars. Their designs, interior and exterior are exceptionally well done with none of the "old world" look of a Jaguar for example.

Ya know? I had narrowed my choices down to an A6 4.2 and the 9-5 Aero. Back in 2000, they were very highly regarded cars. (Back when 9-5 was very competitive.) I chose the 9-5 for its better ergonomics and more cavernous interior.

I'm hoping the new 9-5 will catapult Saab back into competition with the A6 and 5-series.

[throwback]

I hear you, I do like what I have seen from spy shots of the new 9-5. I hope they really go all out on the interior. I have no doubt it will be a good driver. I had not been a fan of front drive cars, but my 9-3 handles very well, and is well balanced for a front driver.