Fiat dilemma

[kain01]

http://www.lancia.com/index.asp

http://www.alfaromeo.co.uk/cgi-bin/p...cejgdfiidfho.0

http://www.fiat.ie/cgi-bin/pbrand.dl...cejgdfiidggk.0

Here are Fiat's lineups. What do you guys think? Worth buying or, should GM try to get out of this purchase with everything it has. Personally I think Alfa Romeo and Lancia have a few interesting cars, but I'm not sure of how well they sell.

Let's here what you guys think.

[Hudson]

There's almost complete overlap. No reason for GM to invest in Fiat's car lineup.

[kain01]

True they overlap alot, but it would give GM a new platform or two to place their other small cars on, to decrease amount of platform sharing already seen. However I still don't think it would be worth it.

[Slack]

Fiat China

[Hudson]

Kain:

They wouldn't gain any platforms. If anything, they'd eliminate platforms. In building cars, you need to maximize the volume on related components. Increasing platform volume as much as possible is good for business. If GM pulled Fiat (or any part of it) into the fold, you wouldn't see any net gain in platforms at GM.

[kain01]

Originally Posted by Hudson

Kain:

They wouldn't gain any platforms. If anything, they'd eliminate platforms. In building cars, you need to maximize the volume on related components. Increasing platform volume as much as possible is good for business. If GM pulled Fiat (or any part of it) into the fold, you wouldn't see any net gain in platforms at GM.

How would they not gain a platform, I can't believe that Fiat doesn't have one platform worth salvaging. From what I hear in the media Alfa Romeo actually does very well, it is only the Fiat/Lancia lines that are causing their boat to sink.

[Bravada]

Well, I don't think that any of Fiat's platforms are really superior to GM's, especially that Fiat is now building new models on GM platforms - Punto III will go Corsa, the new Croma is Epsilon and the SUV will be Suzuki-based (I hope that it will be "based", not rebadged...).

What GM could gain are engines - mainly diesels, but as GM developed their own regular-size diesels, they only buy small 1.3 JTDs for Corsas from Fiat. It's a pity, because 1.9 and 2.4 are doing great in Alfas and Lancias. In petrol engines there is practically 100% overlap, and Fiat's engines are ancient compared to Opel's. Alfa's Twin Spark engines are much better, but they are the core of Alfa's brand image, so placing them in any other car would mean death to Alfa Romeo.

As to sharing other components, GM and Fiat already do that within a purchasing partnership framework, so they won't gain much in case of a merger.

[Hudson]

Kain:

See Bravada's post.

[kain01]

The diesels would definitely be good thing. Here in Europe where I am currently stationed, you see few Opels. I asked a couple of my translators about it, and they claim that the Opel deisel engines are worthless. They may not be, but that is the perception here. Also the Alfa engines make more power than GM's comparable engines. These would make good Cadillac, Buick, or Saturn engines. Going to have to do something with the company, cause I don't think GM is going to be able to get around it.

[Bravada]

Where exactly are you? Everywhere in Europe I've seen quite many Opels (OK, except for Santorini, but this is a VERY small island and all they had was Vitaras, Hyundais and old AXes).

As to the bad perception of Opel diesels it's obviously due to their older engines. Opel was quite late with their common-rail 2.0 and 2.2, so that PSA and Fiat had enough time to build reputation for their diesels. Not to mention VW, which used to be synonymous for diesel for quite a long time (and they still excel in fuel economy).

As I said before, using T.S. engines in any other vehicle than Alfa Romeo would mean death to the brand. It's like Mazda's rotary would be put in a Lincoln Zephyr or a Ford Fusion. Or even worse, cause the rotary engine and the RX are just a nice topping for the Mazda lineup, whereas T.S. engines are everything for Alfa!

[kain01]

I'm in the province of Kosovo, and I actually do see quite a few Opel's, however not in the amount I see the Volkswagen and Mercedes cars. However I realize that this a very small area, and that this is probably not common in all of Europe, my main point was the perception of Opel's deisel engines.

[Taycron]

I want an Alfa...........

[MaxLegroom]

If only they sold the Alfa Romeo GT here...

[alfetta]

In the Netherlands OPEL is marketleader and has been marketleader for decades. It's position
only been threatened by the likes of VW or Renault, Peugot. We are a solid Opel country.
Despite the fact that Opel is not performing well in the rest of Europe which maybe due to
kind of engines Opel (GM) is still marketleader in the Netherlands and has been for decades. Only VW, Renault, Peugot has threatend its position. People like the fact that it is no nonsense.
Opel is a bit of a Dutch car.



I must say that I agree that FIAT and Opel are overlapping one another. Do we need FIAT Auto? Does Europe need six mass-market car makers?? FIAT makes only sense if FIAT can
benefit of sharing savings with GM joint venture. FIAT does have a horribe image. People won't but a car if they think it is going bust. There isn't any overlap with Lancia and Alfa Romeo.
Styling-wise these cars have a distinctive and daring personality.

Look at the interior of the 156. Not at all comparable with Saab, Audi, BMW. If Alfa or Lancia
wants to survive they need this kind of features. They can only survive if they are alluring.

[Globalist]

I don't think Fiat is a good buy.

If GM is forced to buy it, it has to be:
- Bargain price (no more than $500 M)
- Do not assume its debt
- Limit its market presence to where it's doing relatively well
- kill Lancia, and revive Alpha
- Build on Fiat's Multi-jet diesel technology