Thought about Buick

[philr]

Originally Posted by FenwickHockey65

Like someone on here has said before, Buick should be the "comfortable luxury" brand of GM, while Cadillac becomes the "performance luxury" brand. The next-gen LaCrosse looks like it'll work pretty well.

It should be the opposite...

[philr]

Originally Posted by Sal Collaziano

Cadillac has already gone "performance" and has taken a good bit of comfort out of the big picture. So Buick should be filling that spot right now. Buick should be traditional Cadillac luxury...

Cadilac should be traditional Cadillac luxury, Buick should be performance and luxury. The Buick GS club of America has the slogan "go fast with class"' that's what Buick has been when it was a popular brand, it should be that way again.

[EldoFan]

Originally Posted by philr

Cadilac should be traditional Cadillac luxury, Buick should be performance and luxury. The Buick GS club of America has the slogan "go fast with class"' that's what Buick has been when it was a popular brand, it should be that way again.

Cadillac has been milking the 'traditional' end of the segment to death with the DeVille/DTS for far too long. To survive, they have to keep going as they are.....lest they erase every ounce of progress made in the last 15+ years and those kind of customers (always "somewhere between 60 and death") die out.

Besides, could you even imagine Buick trying to go up against brands like BMW and M-B?

[Sal Collaziano]

I wouldn't mind seeing Buick become the luxury "sports" car company - but I'd rather see Cadillac take on BMW than Buick. Look how well Pontiac did taking on BMW? That's a freakin' joke... Buick hasn't been about "performance" since the Grand National. Yeah, the Regal GS was a sleeper - but it wasn't a Grand National.

I'd prefer a more traditional Cadillac as well - but this "new" Cadillac seems to be doing very good. Far better than they were as a traditional luxury car company. That's what Lincoln is, by the way - traditional luxury. And where has that got them?

Buick needs to go after Lexus while Cadillac needs to continue to go after BMW and Mercedes... I don't like it, but that's the road to success...

[philr]

Originally Posted by EldoFan

Besides, could you even imagine Buick trying to go up against brands like BMW and M-B?

It's ever harder to imagine Cadillac doing so!
If the Buick performance image stopped after the Grand National, there were quite a long history of performance at Buick much before that. Even the Chevrolet brothers used to race Buicks back in the early 20th century... Then there were the prewar Buick Century, the fifties Century (back in 1955, the Century was one of the most performant cars on the market, it had nothing to do with the last generation model!), the sixties Wildcat, the Riviera GS, the Skylark GS, GS 400, GS 455 and GS Stage1... Even in the dark late seventies, Buick still got the sporty image with the the turbocharged LeSabre Sport Coupe, the Century and Regal turbo models. Cadillac was still into luxury boats then, as it has always been, except in 1957-58 maybe!


And to fight against the almost all RWD Lexus lineup, Buick would still need some more serious and more performant RWD cars. The EX and RX shouldn't even be a Lexus.

Buick needs cars like the IS, the GS (The GS name has a great history at Buick BTW) and the LS.

[Exploder]

And to fight against the almost all RWD Lexus lineup, Buick would still need some more serious and more performant RWD cars. The EX and RX shouldn't even be a Lexus.

What's the point of Cadillac then? Cadillac already has quite some investment in performance luxury, they can't just ditch it all of a sudden and give it all to Buick.

[BigAls87Z28]

Buick needs to be American Luxury, and thats the way they are going to be positioned. Funny that it will be designed in China.
Its very possible that due to that fact they are designed in China, that they could, over time, start going after Lexus and other Japanese luxury name plates.

[philr]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Buick needs to be American Luxury, and thats the way they are going to be positioned. Funny that it will be designed in China.
Its very possible that due to that fact they are designed in China, that they could, over time, start going after Lexus and other Japanese luxury name plates.

American luxury means big powerful car with a solid chassis and solid RWD drivetrain.
If Buick would build anything as good as my daily driver (a 1965 Wildcat) today, I'd buy one right now!

[FenwickHockey65]

Originally Posted by philr

It should be the opposite...

Not in today's market with the current product lineup for both brands.

[schmallz]

Originally Posted by philr

Cadilac should be traditional Cadillac luxury, Buick should be performance and luxury. The Buick GS club of America has the slogan "go fast with class"' that's what Buick has been when it was a popular brand, it should be that way again.

Bottom line is Cadillac and Buick have to be polar opposites when it comes to luxury. Otherwise they will step on eachother's toes and take customers from each other. The age of redundency needs to end.

One FWD and focusing on the smoothest ride possible

The other RWD and focusing on blending performance and luxury.

It doesn't matter to me which one of these rolls goes to Buick and Cadillac, but the current demographics, market and line up indicates that Cadillac will be GM's flagship brand while Buick will be GM's Luxury Brand.

[schmallz]

Originally Posted by BigAls87Z28

Buick needs to be American Luxury, and thats the way they are going to be positioned. Funny that it will be designed in China.
Its very possible that due to that fact they are designed in China, that they could, over time, start going after Lexus and other Japanese luxury name plates.

Lexus competes with Mercedes.
Cadillac competes with Mercedes.
Lexus completes with Cadillac.

[RSW]

Originally Posted by schmallz

Bottom line is Cadillac and Buick have to be polar opposites when it comes to luxury. Otherwise they will step on eachother's toes and take customers from each other. The age of redundency needs to end.

One FWD and focusing on the smoothest ride possible

The other RWD and focusing on blending performance and luxury.

It doesn't matter to me which one of these rolls goes to Buick and Cadillac, but the current demographics, market and line up indicates that Cadillac will be GM's flagship brand while Buick will be GM's Luxury Brand.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

One might add that Buick, if it isn't going to be as performance-oriented and is going to remain FWD, could also focus a bit more on fuel economy - affordable to purchase luxury that is also affordable to drive. (This puts Caddy at the top, and Buick and Pontiac below as affordable - with one focusing on comfort while the other focuses on performance.)

I could imagine the upcoming Invicta being a good test case for this by offering a 4-cylinder with options for hybrid and flex fuel.

However, I've also long felt, as many have, that Saturn's salvation was in being environmentally responsible and selling primarily hybrid and flex fuel cars. So one potentially distinguishes Buick from Cadillac (and Pontiac) but then on the other hand invites more problematic overlap of Buick with Saturn.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by megeebee

Proven? By who?

Saturn Sales of the last few years:
(Source: Automotive News Data Center)

2004: 212,017

2005: 213,657

2006: 226,375

2007: 240,091

Saturn has been a MISTAKE from Day ONE

"A Different kind of car company" Think about that... That makes as much sense as "Not your fathers Oldsmobile"

What Saturn marketing said was that "old school" GM could not compete with the best from Japan. Their only hope was to build a whole new dealer network and a whole new division... It is sad when given the choice of fixing their cars and cleaning up their dealers... GM Management thought it would be easier and cheaper just to start from scratch.

The sad truth is that it didn't work... All it did was bleed Olds, Pontiac and Buick of product and bring us to the brink of insolvency.

If you want to look a sales numbers

Oldsmobile

1999: 352,197

So the last "full" year before Rick decides to kill this lame duck "irrelevant" division it sold over 100,000 MORE units then the best year Saturn has ever had.

[philr]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Saturn has been a MISTAKE from Day ONE

"A Different kind of car company" Think about that... That makes as much sense as "Not your fathers Oldsmobile"

What Saturn marketing said was that "old school" GM could not compete with the best from Japan. Their only hope was to build a whole new dealer network and a whole new division... It is sad when given the choice of fixing their cars and cleaning up their dealers... GM Management thought it would be easier and cheaper just to start from scratch.

The sad truth is that it didn't work... All it did was bleed Olds, Pontiac and Buick of product and bring us to the brink of insolvency.

If you want to look a sales numbers

Oldsmobile

1999: 352,197

So the last "full" year before Rick decides to kill this lame duck "irrelevant" division it sold over 100,000 MORE units then the best year Saturn has ever had.

That's true,

GM did make a lot of errors in the last 30 years. Creating Saturn was one of them and Killing Oldsmobile was another one.
Instead of focusing on a distant and unreachable planet with a telescope, GM should have focused on correcting all the problems it created with it's bad management... The car buyers did notice the problems, they did notice that GM didn't care at all about them.
Lately, GM tried to create an image for each of it's brands and stick with it even if buyers don't approve and are deserting. There were some quality issues in the eighties and nineties (and there still are) but there are much more serious problems now as today's Buick badged vehicles don't even please Buick fans.

Being born in 1977, I do consider myself a bit conservative but not nostalgic (to me, nostalgia is when you prefer something from the past instead of something that's from the present because it reminds you how YOU were back then) but I often noticed that often, things made in the past were much better than similar things that are built today. There are great things that constantly improved like computers, cell phones, high definition TV, cameras, etc. But if you look at things like mass produced appliances, cars and furniture. You'll notice that the progress wasn't always done in the right direction.

Major changes aren't always necessary or wanted.
For years, people have been eating apples, oranges, grapefruit, corn, potatoes etc... And they didn't ask for changes in them (even if some companies are working hard on that).

The basic design of chairs and tables did not change much since it was found that a chair with about 4 legs, a nearly horizontal seating surface and a nearly vertical backrest was adequate and a table with a horizontal surface and about 4 legs was also adequate...

Now that I'm slightly out of the subject I'll explain some of my experiences with appliances and cars from the past ...

My GE refrigerator was made in the 40's and it still works like a new one... The main reason why I got this one is because I got it for free but I have to admit that it's quite impressive to see how time doesn't seem to affect it's operation. Like most things from the forties, it lacks the convenient features that were introduced in the early sixties like large frost free freezers and automatic ice makers but the freezer does keep food frozen and the refrigerator keeps everyting at temperaures below 40° (and it could freeze anything if set to the colder setting). I just hope it won't ever leak as GE still used sulfur dioxide as a refrigerant back then! GM did better than GE with it's Frigidaire refrigerators of the same vintage as they already used safe (for humans at least!) R12 refrigerant. My parents have a GE Refrigerator from the mid-nineties and it's been serviced twice since... The next time it breaks, it will probably be replaced by an even cheaper one and chances are that mine will still work.
My Frigidaire electric range is from 1960 ("Built and backed by General Motors" as it's written on it) and the only things I've replaced on it are the clock/timer and the fluorescent lamp. It was also given to me but I don't think I'll replace it soon. I don't cook much but I don't see any advantage I'd get if I'd replace it with a new electric range.
My microwave oven is much newer than my other appliances (they didn't make microwave ovens before 1967...), but still quite old compared to most microwave ovens we see today (it's a Hitachi from the early eighties). It's about 4 times as heavy as new ones of the same size but I'm sure it will last much longer. The noise it makes when you close the door, the noise it makes (I should say the lack of it) when it operates says something about it's quality.
My lawn mower is from 1958, I also got it for free a few years ago and with just a few minutes and a 10$ part I've made it running again. I've been using it since to mow my grass and I don't see why I'd need to replace it for another one as it does very well what's it intended to do (and unlike most things from the past, this one is very light, as it's made of magnesium and aluminium).

Similar things could be said about cars:
Most cars from the sixties and early seventies are simple and durable. They require more frequent tune-ups and some grease here and there but that's not a big deal. Just like old appliances, they are usually simple to repair, durable and they perform well. And unlike cars from the previous decades, they don't lack many features from the cars of today. That's why there are still so many on our streets. There are nostalgic people who collect them because they associate these cars with their youth. But for those like me who drive them, it's more about the experience of driving a car that's not disposable, a car with a decent towing capacity, with a strong personality, a car that you can maintain yourself and a car that makes you feel great everytime you sit in, turn the key and go! All those things are lacking in the newer vehicles with a Buick badge from GM...

Pick-ups and SUVs have evolved better than most cars did. Their basic architecture didn't change as much over the years and it's a good thing.

I think that if Buick made cars with the mechanical characteristics from today's trucks, but with a lower center of gravity, a more agile suspension and designed with the main objective of moving people rather than objects would be greatly appreciated by many who, like me, hate how most of the people movers are built today.
For those who have similar tastes in automobiles but don't consider buying old cars as an alternative to today's people movers, because they don't have the time or capacity to repair them or find parts for them. Or because of the rising fuel prices that makes new technology in fuel management interesting, I think they'd make a great alternative to cars from the sixties...

[schmallz]

Originally Posted by RSW

This makes a lot of sense to me.

One might add that Buick, if it isn't going to be as performance-oriented and is going to remain FWD, could also focus a bit more on fuel economy - affordable to purchase luxury that is also affordable to drive. (This puts Caddy at the top, and Buick and Pontiac below as affordable - with one focusing on comfort while the other focuses on performance.)

I could imagine the upcoming Invicta being a good test case for this by offering a 4-cylinder with options for hybrid and flex fuel.

However, I've also long felt, as many have, that Saturn's salvation was in being environmentally responsible and selling primarily hybrid and flex fuel cars. So one potentially distinguishes Buick from Cadillac (and Pontiac) but then on the other hand invites more problematic overlap of Buick with Saturn.

Good to know some one knows which way is up. As for Saturn, it overlaps with everything. It's the worst decision GM has ever made, it needs to go.


Saab: European
Buick: Up-market Chevys
Saturn: European Chevys

Do we really need Saturn? The awnser is no.

Personally I don't see why Opel and Chevy can't merge.