Lutz Speaks On STS/ DTS

[Dr. Show-Me]

It's my guess that GM is not going to announce an STS/DTS replacement until after they secure low interest government loans.
Critics could say, "You don't need government loans if you're producing luxury, low mpg niche cars for the wealthy." or some variation of that.
But, after getting the loans, it could be GM, seeking to return to its heritage, an American success story, coming back from the dead.... ad nauseum. Politics dictate no DTS until after the loan guarantees.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by wescoent

Wasn't the old Seville selling rather well through 2004 anyway?

I don't know. It was near the end of the lifecycle, so I"m sure sales were down.

Originally Posted by wescoent

I really don't get how Cadillac developers could sit in an E350 and STS V6 back to back, and feel the two were competitive.

And that's the other thing.
If the designers and engineers looked at the 5-series and the E350, how could they have come up with the STS and think that they were competitive to begin with?
Sure, STS had significant technology, but that really is only part of the equation. Packaging goes a very long way.

And if they were starting with Imaj... well... What was wrong with Imaj??

[Docray1]

Originally Posted by megeebee

I agree. Only its appearance holds it back, really. The Northstar may have had its day (I wonder if a tweak or two could be done to it to get a little press and some extra HP?), but its V6 is excellent and very powerful.


Is there any chance of a "boob n' butt" job being done to the STS to tide it over until the replacement shows up, or is it felt that the volume would not justify its continuation? As everyone knows, I'm an advocate for something like this rather than keeping the DTS going. The Sigma platform is much more modern, it offers AWD capability, and is built in a first-class highly regarded factory. I feel even if volume suffers a bit if the DTS is axed, the brand would not.

The STS just got its mid-cycle "boob n' butt" job last year for 2008. There are no plans for anything else - as of now. Like with anything else at GM, though, I'm sure it is subject to change if the car's sales improve or some new idea takes hold.

[cad1cts]

A thought just occurred to me. A little while back I read that the reason they didn't put the 6sp in the Lucerne/DTS is because it would've been cost prohibitive for them to do so. I read that the G platform would have to be re-engineered or something like that and therefore it didn't make sense to spend the money. Does anyone else remember hearing this?

[Docray1]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

It's my guess that GM is not going to announce an STS/DTS replacement until after they secure low interest government loans.
Critics could say, "You don't need government loans if you're producing luxury, low mpg niche cars for the wealthy." or some variation of that.
But, after getting the loans, it could be GM, seeking to return to its heritage, an American success story, coming back from the dead.... ad nauseum. Politics dictate no DTS until after the loan guarantees.

You're probably right as far as announcements are concerned. But the Zeta II DT7 is likely a goner, cash infusion or not. After the drivetrain programs got axed and the design was deemed unacceptable, even the most die-hard Cadillac guys felt that the car wasnt worth resuscitating. When the cash spigot gets turned back on, look for a new platform that is smaller and lighter than the Zeta II - but not before 2014. What will be left of Cadillac's "big sedan" business by then is anybody's guess.

[Docray1]

Originally Posted by cad1cts

A thought just occurred to me. A little while back I read that the reason they didn't put the 6sp in the Lucerne/DTS is because it would've been cost prohibitive for them to do so. I read that the G platform would have to be re-engineered or something like that and therefore it didn't make sense to spend the money. Does anyone else remember hearing this?

The V6/6 speed DTS project is costing some $20-25 million of GM dollars; a drop in the bucket relative to a new car. Whatever reasons they gave in the past dont matter now anyway. They're looking for some cheap ways to keep the DTS breathing for a while longer. And if that isnt enough to get everyone excited, some new wheels also are on the docket. How sad to see GM celebrating its 100 year anniversary next week and having a V6/6-speed DTS to look forward to as we begin its second century, huh?

[cad1cts]

WOW...The way they were going on a few years ago or whatever it was, I would've thought it was 10x that much. Well you're right, that is very sad. Made even more so by the fact that it doesn't even offer AWD. One more thing, is the Lucerne getting the 6sp/dohcV6 combo?

[Dr. Show-Me]

Docray, I appreciate your knowledge and comments.
It seems to me that what is needed is an awd/rwd sedan similar to the size of the Zeta, aluminum-intensive, with a weight of less than 4000 pounds. A direct injection, LS engine with BAS+ and afm, v8 diesel, two-mode, producing a luxury sedan that gets some 23-25 mpg.
It doesn't have to get 35 mpg if they sell enough Cruzes and Volts!

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by Dr. Show-Me

Docray, I appreciate your knowledge and comments.
It seems to me that what is needed is an awd/rwd sedan similar to the size of the Zeta, aluminum-intensive, with a weight of less than 4000 pounds. A direct injection, LS engine with BAS+ and afm, v8 diesel, two-mode, producing a luxury sedan that gets some 23-25 mpg.
It doesn't have to get 35 mpg if they sell enough Cruzes and Volts!

The issue isn't CAFE... it's that there's no money left to do anything.

Cadillac is trying to get rid of the Northstar ASAP. Dropping the XLR, STS, and throwing the DI V6 in the DTS accomplishes that goal.

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by Docray1

The STS just got its mid-cycle "boob n' butt" job last year for 2008. There are no plans for anything else - as of now. Like with anything else at GM, though, I'm sure it is subject to change if the car's sales improve or some new idea takes hold.

I know. But I was referring to something a bit more comprehensive. New hood, fenders, rear quarter, that sort of thing. Like what Ford did to "seperate" the MKZ from the Fusion.

But as you say, if 20 million must be spent just to put a different engine/tranny a decade old platform then I doubt they'll throw good money after bad.

[Docray1]

Originally Posted by megeebee

I know. But I was referring to something a bit more comprehensive. New hood, fenders, rear quarter, that sort of thing. Like what Ford did to "seperate" the MKZ from the Fusion.

But as you say, if 20 million must be spent just to put a different engine/tranny a decade old platform then I doubt they'll throw good money after bad.

megeebee,

I doubt the STS will see anything more comrehensive even if the US Government steps in with billions if dollars in loans. The platform is deemed to heavy and costly for its size and fuel economy and especially its sales potential.

I know you were hoping for something more. So were we all. So are we all.

[jry]

Been in the E350. Cramped, short wheelbase, not impressed.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

I don't know. It was near the end of the lifecycle, so I"m sure sales were down.


And that's the other thing.
If the designers and engineers looked at the 5-series and the E350, how could they have come up with the STS and think that they were competitive to begin with?
Sure, STS had significant technology, but that really is only part of the equation. Packaging goes a very long way.

And if they were starting with Imaj... well... What was wrong with Imaj??

I agree....while I can see why some would say the Imaj was over-the-top....so was the 1959 DeVille! And that is why it became a cultural icon....it was NOT "safe". I feel that Cadillac blew it BIG time by not working with the Imaj...it could have been a game changer in the luxury car market. Sadly, they followed that decision with ones to not build the Sixteen or the Cien.....but they DID build the laughable BLS in Europe....then wondered why they aren't taken seriously in Europe.

[Michael_S]

Originally Posted by jry

Been in the E350. Cramped, short wheelbase, not impressed.

Seconded.

It was a nice midsize car. But it wasn't $30,000 nicer than a loaded Malibu, Accord, or Sonata. More like $10,000 nicer.

[Dr. Show-Me]

Do you consider the STS and DTS nicer than a loaded Malibu?