Lutz Speaks On STS/ DTS

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by megeebee

This GM blog link is dated March 2005.

Ya, I noticed that too...BUT do we have something newer that says it is alive and well? Again, news I would LOVE to see.. You have F1P115 and others noting that everything I post are rumours and not true... But most of what I post is supported by documentation from "reputable" sources, or GM's own Blogs, media quotes, annual statements or press releases.

FP115 and others say that the info is old, stale, rumours, or false but when asked to back up their "news" all they can say is "Not true".

I would love to see something from GM or a noted automobile journalist, that says the Ultra V8 will be made... Its death was announced in Spring.... nothing since.

I would love to see something from GM that they will build a new STS on the G8 platform, one that is actually nice to look at, nice to sit in, OR that the SLS will be sold here... NOPE nothing

I would love to see some spy shots of the new DT7, if FP115 is right there should be prototypes on the street somewhere by now... This car is supposed to be ready by 2011... But everything that I read is that the design team that was building this car has been "reassigned". Designe work has STOPED and we will see nothing before 2014 at the earliest, probably NEVER.

[asrapid]

I would love to see something from GM or a noted automobile journalist, that says the Ultra V8 will be made... Its death was announced in Spring.... nothing since.


Yeah. Most rumors which i've read until now said the same thing. No ultra V8 in future.
Maybe people think that gen V in DOHC version (someone suggested that gen V small block will be OHV and DOHC capable ) will be ultra V8.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

That's funny, you post they are in 12th and that I don't know what I'm talking about...that I can't count, then you post a link that says they are 10th... Wow they already picked up two spots ...GM math? You should apply in the Finance division. BTW my link are 2008 sales number yours are 2007...

Your link it says that Hyundai is 5th as well. I said last I checked, I didn't have the numbers on me, now I did. The link I provided you includes all companies under the same management. Your link doesn't include all vehicles sold by the same management. The one I showed is missing some adjustments but are close to what is deemed accurate.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Nope, here is what Lutz said about the Northstar replacement


link1

link2

Link3

How many links would you like? How about this... find me ONE link that says GM is building a 32V replacement to the Northstar that is date stamped after April 2008.

You can keep adding links all you want, but it won't make it any more right. Don't think the new powertrain facility is left with all the 4 cylinder engines...

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Those are moves in the right direction... Since the Cobalt's power train was "lacking" BUT the real issue with these cars (G5 too) is the exterior and interior styling and materials quality... Most buyers look at this first... And in this department these cars are very dated.

If that were true, then explain why the only thing people actually "complained" about at the most recent product comparision people had other things in mind as to what they needed. There was the Cobalt XFE, Cobalt SS, Astra 3 XR, Civic SI, VW Rabbit. The negatives on the XFE and SS were minor things like short gears, too much support on the SS seats and not enough on the XFE, good but plain interior. The exterior the only complaint were the black on the mirrors and the antenna, and some didn't like the large spoiler on the SS. The Astra people found that it was a bit difficult to get into the back seat, but loved the entire vehicle styling. People seemed to like the more European interior as it was a pro. But then compared to the Civic, people said would rather drive the Cobalt SS or Astra because it had better handling, but they liked the gauges on the Civic, but not the radio. The Rabbit head to head with the Astra was generally neutral, except for the sporty look and red trim (which I also thought looked great on the black car). After we asked who liked the Astra or Cobalts, of everyone that said yes we had them talk to the dealership and sold 6 vehicles out of a group of 50 that day. When faired against the competition, the price difference and features between the cars, the Cobalt and Astra stand out. It can last 2-3 years without a problem and with the Cruze on its side it may actually drive up a few extra purchases to those who can't quite afford the Cruze, but have seen ads for it.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

Any facts to back this up or are you posting rumours too?

I know a lot more than I can say. Some press releases have been hinting at some of the products, but nothing will be made official yet. One of them that I've seen in the studio is stunning.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

This time not from Lutz but from Jim Taylor "The current STS and DTS models will be dropped at the end of their respective product cycles"

Link4

Link5

Link6

Like I said, not true. You will find out some other day.

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

The bad news regarding#5 is built into links 4,5 & 6... or just Google "Cadillac DT7 on hold"

How about some details to back up your info? I would LOVE for all of your above info to be right and all of mine, which ALL comes from GM Senior Managers, to be 100% wrong...

There is a major STRATEGIC issue with GM's Cadillac line up... Lets say you are a 30's something CTS owner, who is doing quite well at work or in the market and in 2011 you want to upgrade to something bigger, fancier... (I'd call that person the PRIME DEMOGRAPHIC) So you are that guy, watcha gunna buy? Sadly with GM's Cadillac product placement the answer is, GS, LS, E, A8. See the problem?

You rely on Google to make your arguements, which is the sad part. Rather there is one post on these forums with a very correct information on what is going on with this Cadillac. I can't repeat it, but search for it. It was made by a supplier.

Don't see a problem at all, because I know what is coming and exactly what I will want. Sure GM doesn't offer the $150k vehicle for when I own a $15m house. But they will have a vehicle for any type of activity I would like to do. Rather than ride the wave of rumours and continue to rely of Google to fetch all your rumours that get spun around so much that they become the "truth", start reading the original press releases carefully. Although one program may be put on hold, delayed or cancelled; does not mean that nothing is still being done.

[fp115]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

I would love to see some spy shots of the new DT7, if FP115 is right there should be prototypes on the street somewhere by now... This car is supposed to be ready by 2011... But everything that I read is that the design team that was building this car has been "reassigned". Designe work has STOPED and we will see nothing before 2014 at the earliest, probably NEVER.

Prototypes first get tested at proving grounds before the streets. But hey you seem to know everything. Why aren't you running your own automotive company if you are really that smart?

[cad1cts]

Fp115- I would be interested to hear docray's take on what you have to say about Cadillac's future plans. So I imagine it would be safe to take away from what you've said that there will be a larger than CTS sized replacement for the DTS/STS coming sooner than a lot of us think it will. Let me know if I erred in interpreting what you posted.

[Docray1]

Originally Posted by 2002 Caddy

4) There are zero plans to fix, refresh or replace the STS.
5) The replacement for the DTS, the DT7 is on hold until 2014 at the earliest

Cadillac will have another car by 2011! FANTASTIC... take a look at the calender... its 2008, A division with "one car" for 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010... nice... They should recycle Pontiac's slogan.. "Cadillac is car" too... We could run with that until 2011 when we change it to "Cadillac is two cars"

Originally Posted by fp115

4. Not true again.
5. Not true yet again, where do you get these numbers? Read into some of the posts on this website, one person mentioned a date and it was a good one.

They will have several new models by 2011. Of which a few are in the next few months.

The decision on the future of the STS has yet to be made. The DTS will continue on and will get a V6 and 6 speed transmission shortly. The decision on if/when to axe the STS will be made once they figure out which direction to move on for a replacement. It had been scheduled to die after the 2010 model year.

The Zeta II DT7 is indeed "on hold". However, the likelihood of it being restarted is slim to none. It was conceived to be a large, RWD/AWD sedan with Ultra-V8 and V6 Twin-turbo power. The engines have been cancelled and with $4 gas and GM's financial issues being major concerns, the chances of getting a new big sedan like the DT7 are near nil. The styling of the car also was not met with universal praise, especially for the front end. As of now, the DT7 project teams have been reassigned (not "fired") and several proposals are being looked at for the future. This is CLEARLY a "back to the drawing board" decision. There will be NO NEW LARGE CADILLAC SEDAN before at least the 2014 model year.

Yes, they will have new "models" by 2011. A CTS coupe and wagon are on the way, as is the SRX replacement. The as yet unnamed "Alpha" sedan is due as a late 2012 or 2013 model year car, but there is some movement to speed this up.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by Docray1

The decision on the future of the STS has yet to be made. The DTS will continue on and will get a V6 and 6 speed transmission shortly. The decision on if/when to axe the STS will be made once they figure out which direction to move on for a replacement. It had been scheduled to die after the 2010 model year.

The Zeta II DT7 is indeed "on hold". However, the likelihood of it being restarted is slim to none. It was conceived to be a large, RWD/AWD sedan with Ultra-V8 and V6 Twin-turbo power. The engines have been cancelled and with $4 gas and GM's financial issues being major concerns, the chances of getting a new big sedan like the DT7 are near nil. The styling of the car also was not met with universal praise, especially for the front end. As of now, the DT7 project teams have been reassigned (not "fired") and several proposals are being looked at for the future. This is CLEARLY a "back to the drawing board" decision. There will be NO NEW LARGE CADILLAC SEDAN before at least the 2014 model year.

Yes, they will have new "models" by 2011. A CTS coupe and wagon are on the way, as is the SRX replacement. The as yet unnamed "Alpha" sedan is due as a late 2012 or 2013 model year car, but there is some movement to spped this up.

Bummer.....2014? Way to lead the industry! "Cadillac is Car" is right! I would LOVE to see the DT 7 design that was rejected!

[Docray1]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

Bummer.....2014? Way to lead the industry! "Cadillac is Car" is right! I would LOVE to see the DT 7 design that was rejected!

Cadillac, sad to say, no longer "leads" the industry. Not even close. The design and engineering teams made several proposals over the past couple of years to the GM brass on what it would take to bring Cadillac back to that level. They were comprehensive plans and ideas that might have allowed Cadillac to be competitive again. Unfortunately, because of the cash shortfall, all were rejected. For now, the future of Cadillac sedans resides squarely on the CTS and its variants as well as the small "alpha" sedan, which was originally conceived as just a supplement to the lineup. Now, it is being given a major role. The hope is that the car will live up to its expectations and not be another Cimarron.

If you took a look at the Holden Statesman/Caprice and then grafted on Cadillac vertical headlights/taillights and a "Sixteen" like front fender air extractor gill, you'd be pretty close to what the DT7 looked like. The designers went a little "wild" with the front grille and hood design and thats where some controversy developed.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by Docray1

Cadillac, sad to say, no longer "leads" the industry. Not even close. The design and engineering teams made several proposals over the past couple of years to the GM brass on what it would take to bring Cadillac back to that level. They were comprehensive plans and ideas that might have allowed Cadillac to be competitive again. Unfortunately, because of the cash shortfall, all were rejected. For now, the future of Cadillac sedans resides squarely on the CTS and its variants as well as the small "alpha" sedan, which was originally conceived as just a supplement to the lineup. Now, it is being given a major role. The hope is that the car will live up to its expectations and not be another Cimarron.

If you took a look at the Holden Statesman/Caprice and then grafted on Cadillac vertical headlights/taillights and a "Sixteen" like front fender air extractor gill, you'd be pretty close to what the DT7 looked like. The designers went a little "wild" with the front grille and hood design and thats where some controversy developed.

Lucky you to have seen it! For decades now, one of my car fantasies has been to see all the clay models etc. from all the US manufacturers that were rejected.....I would love it if a book came out that had them all bound together! For instance, I would LOVE to see the Imaj-based STS that Lutz killed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Docray1]

Originally Posted by johnstarnes

Lucky you to have seen it! For decades now, one of my car fantasies has been to see all the clay models etc. from all the US manufacturers that were rejected.....I would love it if a book came out that had them all bound together! For instance, I would LOVE to see the Imaj-based STS that Lutz killed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Imaj based STS was "leaked" onto a website back in 2003-4. There were 2 photos taken on the patio of the GM Design center. I tried to find these a while back, but had no luck. Somebody HAS to still have them. In all honesty, my recollection is that the car was not very attractive, with the tall and upright side windows being especially strange looking. Mr Lutz did indeed "soften" the STS, but he really shouldnt be blamed (entirely) for it as the car was nearly production ready by the time he arrived. More significant revisions would have delayed the car for too long or resulted in it being cancelled entirely. And even though the STS is a bland, nondescript design with a weak interior, it still represents a well engineered vehicle on a reliable platform.

[johnstarnes]

Originally Posted by Docray1

The Imaj based STS was "leaked" onto a website back in 2003-4. There were 2 photos taken on the patio of the GM Design center. I tried to find these a while back, but had no luck. Somebody HAS to still have them. In all honesty, my recollection is that the car was not very attractive, with the tall and upright side windows being especially strange looking. Mr Lutz did indeed "soften" the STS, but he really shouldnt be blamed (entirely) for it as the car was nearly production ready by the time he arrived. More significant revisions would have delayed the car for too long or resulted in it being cancelled entirely. And even though the STS is a bland, nondescript design with a weak interior, it still represents a well engineered vehicle on a reliable platform.

Thanks I've tried to Google those photos too.

[megeebee]

Originally Posted by Docray1

And even though the STS is a bland, nondescript design with a weak interior, it still represents a well engineered vehicle on a reliable platform.

I agree. Only its appearance holds it back, really. The Northstar may have had its day (I wonder if a tweak or two could be done to it to get a little press and some extra HP?), but its V6 is excellent and very powerful.


Is there any chance of a "boob n' butt" job being done to the STS to tide it over until the replacement shows up, or is it felt that the volume would not justify its continuation? As everyone knows, I'm an advocate for something like this rather than keeping the DTS going. The Sigma platform is much more modern, it offers AWD capability, and is built in a first-class highly regarded factory. I feel even if volume suffers a bit if the DTS is axed, the brand would not. The Alpha car surely will take up most of the volume that the DTS would leave behind. They would not however sell to the same kind of customer, of course. But in the long run, that would not be a bad thing either.

Any word on where DTS production will be moved? Can Hamtramck build G body cars side by side with the Delta II/ Volt, or will GM spend those millions to move it and the Lucerne to another location to build ever dwindling numbers of them?

And I too remember seeing some pirated pics of what was allegedly the original Sigma STS. Grainy, black and white, and only 2 exterior shots. I didn't think it bad at all. I shudder to think what might have been done to the original 2003 CTS if Mr. Lutz had gotten to it in time. And it is probably safe to say that that design was considered nasty by many at the time. As it turned out, the 2003-07 CTS saved Cadillac from an early grave.

[mgescuro]

Originally Posted by Docray1

The Imaj based STS was "leaked" onto a website back in 2003-4. There were 2 photos taken on the patio of the GM Design center. I tried to find these a while back, but had no luck. Somebody HAS to still have them.

I know at one point in time I had the photo on my hard drive.
It wasn't a very attractive design.

Originally Posted by Docray1

Mr Lutz did indeed "soften" the STS, but he really shouldnt be blamed (entirely) for it as the car was nearly production ready by the time he arrived. More significant revisions would have delayed the car for too long or resulted in it being cancelled entirely. And even though the STS is a bland, nondescript design with a weak interior, it still represents a well engineered vehicle on a reliable platform.

But the final result was a non-competitive car and a "damaged" name.
For a while STS looked intriguing, but then when you looked at the competition, it just wasn't there.

It was definitely being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Damage a car? Or risk being late to market even more?
I would have been more late to market, personally.

[2002 Caddy]

Originally Posted by Docray1

Cadillac, sad to say, no longer "leads" the industry. Not even close. The design and engineering teams made several proposals over the past couple of years to the GM brass on what it would take to bring Cadillac back to that level. They were comprehensive plans and ideas that might have allowed Cadillac to be competitive again. Unfortunately, because of the cash shortfall, all were rejected. For now, the future of Cadillac sedans resides squarely on the CTS and its variants as well as the small "alpha" sedan, which was originally conceived as just a supplement to the lineup. Now, it is being given a major role. The hope is that the car will live up to its expectations and not be another Cimarron.

None of this is true, FP115 will set you straight, he has inside information that a large sedan will be here soon and it will have a modern "blow the socks off of the competition" 32V V8. The Ultra project is alive and well

He also has news that the STS will get fixed and they will resolve all of the design short commings. Lutz was only kidding when he said this design flop will "soldier on"

I tried to convince him otherwise, you know with all of the leaks from Lutz and the Cadillac Design team. And all of the supporting reports from the media...

But no, we have inside info! Cadillac will have a S Class fighter for 2010...
(and then I woke up)

[wescoent]

Originally Posted by mgescuro

It was definitely being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Damage a car? Or risk being late to market even more?
I would have been more late to market, personally.

Wasn't the old Seville selling rather well through 2004 anyway?

I really don't get how Cadillac developers could sit in an E350 and STS V6 back to back, and feel the two were competitive.